Higurashi Spoiler Discussion (for people who have read the clues/finished the series)

[Question]

In Onikakushi, Mion says that she let Oishi live in the past. Whats up with that?

[David Johnston]

Originally Posted by Question

In Onikakushi, Mion says that she let Oishi live in the past. Whats up with that?

Keiichi hallucinated that. When someone has an abrupt and inexplicable change change of mood from threatening to non-threatening, that indicates a switch from hallucination to reality. However she probably did angrily say something about how she didn't do anything about Oishi because he was going to be retiring soon. That something probably involved her politician uncle, not her yakuza uncle.

[sezen_atacan]

I also have a question for Onikakushi question arc. I am still unconvinced that every crazy moment of Rena is "Keichi's hallucination".... Because didn't Rena also acted funny also in arcs where Keichi is also sane??

The first half of episode 4 seems especially real to me unless the Rena is a complete illusion. The part where Rena shows up in the quiet street showing her injured fingers as well as carrying her weapon. Or was she not carrying a knife at all as some have suggested.

Don't somethings(but not all) look too real to be an illusion to you guys??

[Klashikari]

1) every "sudden" change of personality is indeed keiichi's hallucination. Rena "acted" funny only when the master is related with the curse, and with the case of Tsumhoroboshi-hen.

2) Hallucination doesn't mean that the event altogether didn't happen. Hallucination can be an event sensed but with additional distorsion due of the desilusional state. for example, Rena was indeed offering a meal for Keiichi, but she never tried acted dark and all. we can safely assume that Rena was worried about keiichi, his paranoia and he doesn't eat very well, she she insisted, but keiichi probably sensed it as a killing intent and all.
As for that Rena in ep4, it can be a complete hallucination, or the real one, but not doing the same thing at all anyway.

3) illusion can look "too" reel. PTSD isn't a fictional point, it does happen, and people can actually have a twisted perception and possible stimuli can lead to an unexpected reaction.

[MrZombie]

I'm certain that the "Rena" that showed up with the billhook and laughed insanely was entirely a hallucination on Keiichi's part. If you notice when he wakes up back in his house Rena's in different clothes. I doubt she would have taken the time to chance when she found him knocked out like that.

[sezen_atacan]

Would is possible that in Tsumihoroboshi-hen the events would still happen even if Teppei and Rina are alive? I know what happened but as soon as the 3rd episode of Tsumihoroboshi-hen starts it feels like a whole new story arc.

Can Teppei and Rina be wiped out so cleanly that not once has anyone noticed that they are at the very least missing? It seems like all of a sudden the scene switches focus on Tomitake and Takano.

In other words from what I see here, if Takano didn't scare Rena with her fairy tales then most likely Rena may actually live with what she has done without going nuts like Shion.

Or maybe I am just not understanding Rena enough? Afterall the last few episodes does kinda feel like fast-forward mode and many members here said that most of Rena's history is cut. How are the scrapbook contents related to Rena's personal problems?

[Davidj]

Originally Posted by sezen_atacan

Would is possible that in Tsumihoroboshi-hen the events would still happen even if Teppei and Rina are alive? I know what happened but as soon as the 3rd episode of Tsumihoroboshi-hen starts it feels like a whole new story arc.

Can Teppei and Rina be wiped out so cleanly that not once has anyone noticed that they are at the very least missing? It seems like all of a sudden the scene switches focus on Tomitake and Takano.

In other words from what I see here, if Takano didn't scare Rena with her fairy tales then most likely Rena may actually live with what she has done without going nuts like Shion.

When Rena doesn't kill Rina, she isn't under enough stress to respond to Takano's prodding. Takano starts up by bringing up the subject of the murders to see who twitches. When she finds someone who is sufficiently twitchy, she starts to bring up the subject of the horrible history of Onigafuchi. If they're lured in, then she'll get to know them a little better and once she's figured out which conspiracy theory they are most likely to jump, she'll give the appropriate folder.

[sezen_atacan]

According to the game thread, it appears that the Japanese Parliament (the one in the game, NOT the real one) is in cahoots with Takano's bio-chem warfare unit somehow?? Also in the Devil's Script, it seems to hold some truth, not all but some.

What I found new to me was that Takano was formerly used as a scientific guinea pig by the right-wing of the Diet and one of the reasons for that was that Takano has some genetic links to the plagued village?? which is why she wants revenge so badly??

If there is that much corruption in the high ranks of the parliament and the ministry of defence, then wouldn't it mean that Takano's defeat in the final arcs is only one mouse eliminated in a den of many?? The prime minister can always order someone else to wipe out the town assuming if he too is in cahoots with Takano.

Basically Takano is used as the "fall-guy" ala "Reichstag fire" incident so that the higher ups in the parliament can still somehow gain emergency powers and history would repeat itself.

So did I get the pieces together properly? There seems to be alot of parts saying that Takano is a victim of government corruption or something. But correct me if I am wrong.

[Rias]

Originally Posted by sezen_atacan

Would is possible that in Tsumihoroboshi-hen the events would still happen even if Teppei and Rina are alive? I know what happened but as soon as the 3rd episode of Tsumihoroboshi-hen starts it feels like a whole new story arc.

Can Teppei and Rina be wiped out so cleanly that not once has anyone noticed that they are at the very least missing? It seems like all of a sudden the scene switches focus on Tomitake and Takano.

In other words from what I see here, if Takano didn't scare Rena with her fairy tales then most likely Rena may actually live with what she has done without going nuts like Shion.

Or maybe I am just not understanding Rena enough? Afterall the last few episodes does kinda feel like fast-forward mode and many members here said that most of Rena's history is cut. How are the scrapbook contents related to Rena's personal problems?

- Can Tsumihoroboshi-hen still occur if Teppei/Rina didn't die?
Intresting point, which really depends on a couple things. Rina and Teppei has always been around. They just don't show up much, hangs around Okinomiya, and usually doesn't cause much trouble for the rest of the cast. In Tsumihoroboshi-hen, Rina approaches Rena's father, which ultimately made her remember about her past. So Rina and Teppei are the victims of Rena remembering her past. The moment Rena killed Rina and Teppei is the point that the tragerdies known as Tsumihoroboshi-hen started. So the answer is, most likely no.

-How can Teppei/Rina died and no one knows?
Well...they are crooks. People don't really care what happens to these bad seeds of society. Obviously some people will know that they have gone missing, such as Rena's father, the Sonozaki Family, or the police.

-About Takano and her theories
Takano likes to tell people about her theories. It's not that she's trying to screw around with anyone with her theories, but she just gets a kick out of scaring people with these occult stories (since she's an occult manic herself). Some people don't care much for her theories, but her theories always seems to have some sort of truth to it when it's exposed to those who are paranoid. Perhaps is when people are already paranoid enough that it's easier for them to believe her stories. So Takano's stories are merely a catalyst to tragedy, just like Oiishi's visit.

[Davidj]

Originally Posted by sezen_atacan

According to the game thread, it appears that the Japanese Parliament (the one in the game, NOT the real one) is in cahoots with Takano's bio-chem warfare unit somehow??

Not parliament as a whole, but some very powerful men.

Also in the Devil's Script, it seems to hold some truth, not all but some.

What I found new to me was that Takano was formerly used as a scientific guinea pig by the right-wing of the Diet and one of the reasons for that was that Takano has some genetic links to the plagued village?? which is why she wants revenge so badly??

Where'd you get that from?

If there is that much corruption in the high ranks of the parliament and the ministry of defence, then wouldn't it mean that Takano's defeat in the final arcs is only one mouse eliminated in a den of many?? The prime minister can always order someone else to wipe out the town assuming if he too is in cahoots with Takano.

He has no reason to. The cabal agrees to killing the inhabitants of Hinamazawa because with the death of Doctor Irie and Rika there is no voice to counter Takano's recommendations, and those deaths help convince them there is no hope for a cure for the disease and a real chance that Rika's death will lead to mass insanity which, apart from letting a zombie legion of chainsaw maniacs loose on the nearby town might lead to scrutiny that will reveal that a quasi-governmental agency has been doing biowarfare experiments using a biological weapon more horrific than Ebola. The cabal's original members are all gone, and the successors have lost their interest in deploying Hinamazawa Syndrome on the United States but they don't want what they were originally doing to ever be suspected. They don't even want it suspected that it was known, and kept secret from the public that there was an identified population of thousands of ticking time bombs of homicidal psychosis living among them.

If they keep Irie alive and working on a cure, however, the cabal is content. They don't really want to commit mass murder, after all.

Basically Takano is used as the "fall-guy" ala "Reichstag fire" incident so that the higher ups in the parliament can still somehow gain emergency powers and history would repeat itself.

Um...no. 22 years later, while everyone in the village was dead, there were no "emergency powers"

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Davidj

He has no reason to. The cabal agrees to killing the inhabitants of Hinamazawa because with the death of Doctor Irie and Rika there is no voice to counter Takano's recommendations, and those deaths help convince them there is no hope for a cure for the disease and a real chance that Rika's death will lead to mass insanity which, apart from letting a zombie legion of chainsaw maniacs loose on the nearby town might lead to scrutiny that will reveal that a quasi-governmental agency has been doing biowarfare experiments using a biological weapon more horrific than Ebola. The cabal's original members are all gone, and the successors have lost their interest in deploying Hinamazawa Syndrome on the United States but they don't want what they were originally doing to ever be suspected. They don't even want it suspected that it was known, and kept secret from the public that there was an identified population of thousands of ticking time bombs of homicidal psychosis living among them.

To be more accurate, Irie and Rika deaths not only support that the cure will be harder to apply, but also it triggers her emergency plans, due her own theory which cannot be proved false, exept in Watanagashi and Meakashi : the Queen Theory.

I'm not sure about the "ebola" mention, basically, the dicease was rather an effective bioweapon, since it isn't trackable, nor showing obvious syndroms of a dicease. This research was done more to restore Japan glory after the aftermath of the war, not really as use to attack USA.
As for that matter also, the true initial project was indeed to CURE, the "weapon researchs" were much a "side and secret" project between takano and her clients. Irie and Tomitake are compltely oblivious to her personal agenda so far.
But the realy problem is that the new members are cutting short the budget, since the dicease doesn't seem to be that violent, and the case is really restricted in this area. Suffice to say, they allow an extended time to fix the problem, but it hindered takano's research as to research on the syndrom, as a biological weapon.

[sezen_atacan]

Actually I read about Takano in the game thread of this forum and the part where people where discussing about the minagorishi-hen chapter.

Unless I have misread, wasn't Takano supposed to be a victim turned villian? Not by the virus but from the people that was once using her.

Unless of course Takano is a character who is based off on old-school RPGs and old-days shounen anime where you have this villan who is evil for no other reason then to just be an evil presence to keep the plot going.

But since Higurashi is about characters with complex difficulty I doubt Takano is one of those "Because she is born evil" characters from old-days RPGs, that would be too simple.

The game thread here also mentions someone by the name of Koizumi who is somehow related to Takano. This guy isn't mentioned in the anime nor in the TIPs of this thread so I don't know who exactly he is, My guess is that Koizumi is a scientist like Takano and that they are reasearching something dangerous.

I don't know how Koizumi passes away which he eventually does. Takano took it really hard. Also at some point the other scientists decide to use Takano as a specimen. Now unless she has absolutley no connection to Hinamazawa then I don't understand why she would have a grudge against that population. My guess is that Takano probably is a decendant from that village who's genetic properties have gained the interest of the right-wing extremists.

I think the specific page of the thread would be here:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...t=26475&page=9

I think that if you also go back a page or two or forward a page or two you will find that Takano was forcefully quarantined in a medical building and was subject to cruel experiments.

Takano's hatred is trully strong, I would like to know where it came from. She doesn't seem to show regret or guilt like the protagonists do. Something other than the village disease must have hit her hard.

[Rias]

Takano's past is shown in Matsuribayashi-hen.

Spoiler:

To sum it up, the grand plot that she has planned is all to let the world to acknowledges the achievement of her grandfather (not blood related), that being the Queen Carrier Theory.

She wasn't a specimen or originated from Hinamizawa. When she lost her parents at a young age, she was thrown into a badly ran orphanage, and was subjected to abuse and torture after he attempt to escape failed. However, she did manage to contact Takano Hifumi, who later on resuced her from the orphanage. From then on she helped out Hifumi's research, and was deeply influenced by his philosphies.

The main philosphy that influenced her is that as long as a person's research remains acknowledged by and changed the world, even if the person is dead, he/she is just the same as living on. In other words, that person has became a god.

[Davidj]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

To be more accurate, Irie and Rika deaths not only support that the cure will be harder to apply, but also it triggers her emergency plans, due her own theory which cannot be proved false, exept in Watanagashi and Meakashi : the Queen Theory.

I'm not sure about the "ebola" mention, basically, the dicease was rather an effective bioweapon, since it isn't trackable, nor showing obvious syndroms of a dicease. This research was done more to restore Japan glory after the aftermath of the war, not really as use to attack USA.

Yes but how would it restore Japanese "glory"? It was fairly clear to me that the original cabal was made up of disgruntled old pharts holding such a grudge over World War II that they revived an old Unit 731-era program.

[sezen_atacan]

Do we know Takano Miyo's real full name?? If Takano is just an adopted last name and Miyo is a made up name she must have had another name. Maybe forgotten?
Is she a Caucasian? Now don't take it the wrong way guys but at least in the anime she does look a bit different the the rest of the Japanese cast, perhaps thats why she got a lot of prejudice. No offense just examining the possibilities and exploring outside the box........

[Davidj]

I don't think we do know Takano's real name. But I doubt that the concept of "caucasian" means anything in a universe where the Houjous are native Japanese and Shion and Mion have naturally green hair.

[Rias]

Takano Miyo's real name is

Spoiler:

Tanashi Miyoko

[chounokoe]

In Tsumihoroboshi-hen, Rina approaches Rena's father, which ultimately made her remember about her past. So Rina and Teppei are the victims of Rena remembering her past. The moment Rena killed Rina and Teppei is the point that the tragerdies known as Tsumihoroboshi-hen started. So the answer is, most likely no.

But isn't the fact that K1 and the gang discovered Rena on the Gomi-yama, while she was dismembering Rina and Te-chan, the real trigger to Tsumihoroboshi-events?
In the Game (at least the PS2 version) and the manga it becomes clear that she coped really well with killing those two, because they were 'villains'. In Rena's twisted view of her life, they were evil beings that deserved being disposed of (well to be honest...who wouldn't agree with her )
But when K1 and the others clearly showed her that she comitted a sin (being scared of her at first, asking her how she could do it, hiding the corpses) and 'A sin is only a sin, when others perceive it as that'.
She was able to cover that feeling of guilt up by her friends helping her, but when Takano approached her the next day, told her about all the parasite-stuff and her Parasitosis kicked back in, she was vulnerable to those theories and was led to believe that her 'unrightful beheaviour' was not caused by her own schizoid behaviour, but by an evil alien presence, to live with her guilt of killing another human being (as which she was now perceiving Rina and Te-chan again).
When then Takano (aka the only person who 'fully understood her') was 'killed', she started to see the 'alien-conspiracy' behind all the events and started to go crazy. She was under pressure because she, too, had been in contact with Oyashiro-sama/the aliens, and she would be disposed of like Takano was.
It became even worse when Oishi told her, that Takano wasn't even alive anymore when she had the conversation with her at the library. This led her to believe that the aliens set up Doppelgangers to cover up their actions, shown by her reaction when she heard the men at the Gomi-yama talked about 'Rena' being seen at the grocery store.
She had to do something to get the upperhand against the 'conspirators' and that's why she took the school hostage to threaten the police to gather evidence about the alien-plot.
Then there are two possible outcomes, either the school blows up and kills K1 and Rena, or K1 is able to pull her out of her paranoia.

Especially the PS2 game strongened my belief that all arcs are happening at the same time, which one is the superior one depends on the actions taken by the people in this world.
This would also explain why Rena broke down and excused to Satoko over and over again in Tatarigoroshi when Satoko went crazy in the school.
She felt guilty over not being quick enough to kill Teppei after she killed Rina.
Because as we know from the TIPs, the death of his mistress (aka Rina) is the reason for him moving back in with Satoko.
It would also explain her schizoid behaviour in Onikakushi, which was maybe not all K1's delusion. She told him that she would understand him and that guilt is made easier if carried by friends (which is the concept which held her above water for a time in Tsumihoroboshi)

Well...this is just my idea of how Higurashi works...I just wanna know if anyone here shares it.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

But isn't the fact that K1 and the gang discovered Rena on the Gomi-yama, while she was dismembering Rina and Te-chan, the real trigger to Tsumihoroboshi-events?

Not really. She reaches a high stage of madness, though still conscious of her actions. If she didn't meet keiichi and the rest, we can assume she will have much more stress since she will be alone with that "secret".

In the Game (at least the PS2 version) and the manga it becomes clear that she coped really well with killing those two, because they were 'villains'. In Rena's twisted view of her life, they were evil beings that deserved being disposed of (well to be honest...who wouldn't agree with her )

what i understand here was most likely that she was lying to herself and it wouldn't really last long, with the various element which can make exploding her paranoia.

But when K1 and the others clearly showed her that she comitted a sin (being scared of her at first, asking her how she could do it, hiding the corpses) and 'A sin is only a sin, when others perceive it as that'.
She was able to cover that feeling of guilt up by her friends helping her, but when Takano approached her the next day, told her about all the parasite-stuff and her Parasitosis kicked back in, she was vulnerable to those theories and was led to believe that her 'unrightful beheaviour' was not caused by her own schizoid behaviour, but by an evil alien presence, to live with her guilt of killing another human being (as which she was now perceiving Rina and Te-chan again).

i think her "maggots in her blood" syndrom was already present during her childhood. So the mere mention of parasite etc kick in with her past.
this is the main reason why Rina's case is related with her madness, since the presence of Rina and remarriage just kick rena's past in. with this, you can tell her phobia/paranoia with maggots in her blood get completely twisted with takano teasing her.

When then Takano (aka the only person who 'fully understood her') was 'killed', she started to see the 'alien-conspiracy' behind all the events and started to go crazy. She was under pressure because she, too, had been in contact with Oyashiro-sama/the aliens, and she would be disposed of like Takano was.

yes, most of the time, Takano death trigger her "prey" paranoi. it is not exclusive to Rena, but indeed everyone she got in contact with her theories/scrapbooks.

Especially the PS2 game strongened my belief that all arcs are happening at the same time, which one is the superior one depends on the actions taken by the people in this world.

Well, the problem with the PS2 game is probably the "branch" system. it was required to it would be much more natural and playable. cutting the story in different chapters, much like the original PC VN doesn't make any sense, thus, watering down the purpose of an adaptation.

This would also explain why Rena broke down and excused to Satoko over and over again in Tatarigoroshi when Satoko went crazy in the school.
She felt guilty over not being quick enough to kill Teppei after she killed Rina.

wha...? no really, it isn't like this. Like we can obviously see : Teppei and Rina aren't a permanent factor.
Even if Teppei and Rina are together, that doesn't mean they will target Mister Ryuuguu. However, when Rina is killed, it triggers either Tatarigoroshi / Tsukiotoshi / Minagoroshi, since without Rina, Teppei cannot pimp any money, so he needs to get back home.

but Teppei is absolutely no present all the time, just like Rina, or else, it would be Tatarigoroshi-Tsukiotoshi/Tsumihoroboshi all the time.

Because as we know from the TIPs, the death of his mistress (aka Rina) is the reason for him moving back in with Satoko.
It would also explain her schizoid behaviour in Onikakushi, which was maybe not all K1's delusion. She told him that she would understand him and that guilt is made easier if carried by friends (which is the concept which held her above water for a time in Tsumihoroboshi)

That correct, Rina is the reason why he moves back. that proves pretty much that every chapter cannot have the same setups.
Events aren't only the only thing which can differ, but also some setups. much like why Shion can be already present with Keiichi and friends, and how she meet keiichi, depending of the chapter.

but i don't really see when "Oyashiro-mode" Rena was talking about relieving keiichi from his guilt, but rather inviting to ask him what is bugging him. I would hardly see rena using a cleaver to do so, not to mention how she reacted after mion was beaten up by keiichi.

[chounokoe]

i think her "maggots in her blood" syndrom was already present during her childhood.

Yes I never wanted to contradict that. I think her Delusional Parasitosis started after the tried-rape during her school-time outside Hinamizawa, she felt dirty and the guilt she felt because of the divorce of her parents added to her weak psychological state. She just managed to supress it after she returned to Hinamizawa, but when Rina made a pass on her father it was getting stronger again and she started lossing her sanity.

Teppei and Rina aren't a permanent factor.

Hmm ok so I think the biggest problem is which medium we see as the really 'true' Higurashi, because in the PS2 version there is a scene, very early in the game, when you go shopping with Rena, that shows that Rina seems to be a certain factor in her life.
This scene occurs, as far as I know, without any real connection to the following arc, so I stay with my theory of them being a permanent factor.
But I think that is also part of finding your own explanation to Higurashi

yes, most of the time, Takano death trigger her "prey" paranoi. it is not exclusive to Rena, but indeed everyone she got in contact with her theories/scrapbooks.

Well this is the problem with Takano, I don't think that she intentionaly chooses one of the gang in each arc and that she always gets the right one who is in a weak emotional state.
Because in Tsumihoroboshi Oishi was able to aquire several of Takanos scrapbooks, some of them from the Sonozaki household, it seemed to me like Takano approaches several people in each arc, but only those who are in a weakened stage show real 'interest' in her theories, while others cast her aside as a random Occult-otaku.
The fact that none of the friends really share something other than their daily life in school with each other they never even get to think about Takanos involvement.