Mobile Suit Gundam AGE - Episode 34 Discussion / Poll

[FLCL]

Are we going to get a Turn A plot twist were this "secret treasure" is really just 100+ year old UC tech? Flit's arc did allude to something of this sort.

[Rising Dragon]

If you know of the plot of Memories of Sid, then you'd know what exactly the treasure is (we're not allowed to reveal it in this thread anyway).

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by TheEroKing

Flag? Will Zeheart finally get laid?

If he doesn't soon, he might lose his chance because Fram has a rather short life expectancy.

Btw do we know he is a virgin still? I assume after waking up from cold sleep, he'd be two things: hungry and horny..... It'd be rather cruel of Ezelcant not to provide on his trusted lieutenants/pawns some female companionship

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

When was that, when Zeheart was using the Wrozzo, a glorified grunt suit that can't even keep up with his reaction speed? That's clearly indicative of Zeheart's skills....

Zeheart had no trouble fighting Kio AND Seric when he was in the Ghirarga. He would match Asemu and at the very least fight him to a draw.

I'm not so sure it'd be a draw. They were close enough at the end of Asemu's generation. But at the same time Asemu has had years to sharpen and improve his skills while Zeheart remains static. Kind of the downside to the Vegan system that their pilots can't actually improve if they only come out when needed. Curious to see how Zeheart would put up with Asemu's tricks. Though really impossible to say anything unless they actually met up in a fight.

You'd think after all these years though that they would have dozens of different suits set up for Zeheart. Didn't think after all this time we'd have him once again complaining about a suit not being able to keep up with him.

[Rising Dragon]

Well, Zeydra and Ghirarga were one-off models that were designed with Zeheart as its pilot in mind. The Wrozzo, on the other hand, is a mass-production model and they likely couldn't customize it to fully compensate for Zeheart's capabilities--same with the Zedas R. They tried, but failed. Situationally, the Wrozzo was better-suited for that battle than the Ghirarga was, hence why Zeheart was using an inferior mobile suit.

[Dr. Casey]

Zeheart is a capable pilot and fighter, though I personally think that him failing at everything he ever attempts makes him a not very threatening villain.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

When was that, when Zeheart was using the Wrozzo, a glorified grunt suit that can't even keep up with his reaction speed? That's clearly indicative of Zeheart's skills....

Zeheart had no trouble fighting Kio AND Seric when he was in the Ghirarga. He would match Asemu and at the very least fight him to a draw.

I mean, in the the handful of fights we've had:
(1.) End of Gen 2: Zeheart has his panties in a bunch that he can't rely on his crutch to just win. If you remember when Gen 2 started, he nearly got his head cut off by Asemu in a relic out of the barn and was saved purely because of said crutch (he nearly got headshot in his upgraded suit by the AGE-2, and again was saved by his magic powers). No matter how you shake it, Asemu was presented as more talented as a pilot (fighting a trained military combatant and pilot with NO training military or real piloting background), the most talented in the whole series probably, he just doesn't have magic brain powers.
(2.) Flit was capable of holding back Zeheart with a 30+ year old machine while the latter was in his updated red-thing, the name of which escapes me. Flit was talented as a pilot but he was presented to be fairly close to Woolf in terms of pure piloting skills but, unlike Woolf, had magic brain powers.
(3.) In Gen 3 the brain magic vs. brain magic fights of Kio vs. Zeheart were fairly even, the Ghirarga did not appear to have any over the top advantage over a kid who was piloting for the first time. The Wrozzo was fighting an angry and very much reckless Kio but managed to draw out a stalemate. As of so far, there's no overly large gap established between Kio and Zeheart.

Now, in Gen 3 when Asemu reappears, he's completely toying with his son. He doesn't do anything but dodge and kick, he could have shredded Kio and the AGE-3 if he were out for blood. Think about the circumstances of the fights he's also had, he and a small group of suits have been taking out what are likely heavily armed and manned military vessels. (Took out SID...)

As of this episode even the Bisidian grunts are presented as far more skilled than the Diva grunts.

They could have over represented it and we might get a worf effect with Asemu, but as it stands I don't there's much of a contest.

[Roloko vi Britannia]

Originally Posted by LightningZERO

I LOL at Zeheart's "Don't disappoint me" line to Fram. He's the one who sucks

As did I.

Asemu comes back as Captain Ash and looks badass with his Gundam and outfit.

8/10

[Dr. Casey]

"But sir, you've never successfully carried out a single mission in 25 years"
"Shut up"

[WefiDasst]

Huh realized Asemu and Ginias has the same hair style.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by Vena

I mean, in the the handful of fights we've had:
(1.) End of Gen 2: Zeheart has his panties in a bunch that he can't rely on his crutch to just win. If you remember when Gen 2 started, he nearly got his head cut off by Asemu in a relic out of the barn and was saved purely because of said crutch (he nearly got headshot in his upgraded suit by the AGE-2, and again was saved by his magic powers). No matter how you shake it, Asemu was presented as more talented as a pilot (fighting a trained military combatant and pilot with NO training military or real piloting background), the most talented in the whole series probably, he just doesn't have magic brain powers.

What are you on about? Asemu spent 90% of his battles getting his ass handed to him, one way or another. He was saved time and again by the Gundam's power, not his own. The AGE-1 was not a relic, it received upgrades throughout the years and was still a formidable machine. It could very well ahve been stronger than teh Zedas, which in case you forgot, is as old as the AGE-1.....

(2.) Flit was capable of holding back Zeheart with a 30+ year old machine while the latter was in his updated red-thing, the name of which escapes me. Flit was talented as a pilot but he was presented to be fairly close to Woolf in terms of pure piloting skills but, unlike Woolf, had magic brain powers.

yeah, a 30+ year old machine that was kept up to date, and further upgraded when the AGE system was removed. Flit is also an experienced pilot and top-class x-rounder himself. What's your point? How does Flit not being a pushover make Zeheart a weakling exactly?

(3.) In Gen 3 the brain magic vs. brain magic fights of Kio vs. Zeheart were fairly even, the Ghirarga did not appear to have any over the top advantage over a kid who was piloting for the first time. The Wrozzo was fighting an angry and very much reckless Kio but managed to draw out a stalemate. As of so far, there's no overly large gap established between Kio and Zeheart.

Rewatch the fight, Zeheart was running circles around Kio. He was toying with him AND Seric....It wasn't even a serious fight.
The Wrozzo vs Fortress fight was not a stalemate, Zeheart's mobile suit clearly wasn't up to the task because it's performance was lacking. It lacked firepower, and response time. Had it given out before Kio left Zeheart would've lost and it was all because of the machine, not the pilot.

Now, in Gen 3 when Asemu reappears, he's completely toying with his son. He doesn't do anything but dodge and kick, he could have shredded Kio and the AGE-3 if he were out for blood. Think about the circumstances of the fights he's also had, he and a small group of suits have been taking out what are likely heavily armed and manned military vessels. (Took out SID...)

As of this episode even the Bisidian grunts are presented as far more skilled than the Diva grunts.

They could have over represented it and we might get a worf effect with Asemu, but as it stands I don't there's much of a contest.

I love how in your mind X-Rounder powers are a clutch, but Asemu's "Supa Piroto" power up is not. It's even cheesier than X-rounder powers because he just got pissed off and suddenly became a better pilot. Even though he's a good pilot, Asemu would lose to Yurin, not to mention Flit or Zeheart.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

What are you on about? Asemu spent 90% of his battles getting his ass handed to him, one way or another. He was saved time and again by the Gundam's power, not his own. The AGE-1 was not a relic, it received upgrades throughout the years and was still a formidable machine. It could very well ahve been stronger than teh Zedas, which in case you forgot, is as old as the AGE-1.....

Off the bat, the Zedas R was built specifically for Zeheart. It may be an old model but it is very much a specialized custom, the Gundam AGE-1 was not built for Asemu nor was it specialized to him. Moreover, the AGE-1 normal was not a suitable unit to fight the normal Zedas as it was too slow to keep up with the far speedier opponent, yet somehow it fighting the upgraded Zedas R is? Doubtful. You have an old, slow and steady upgraded machine fighting an upgrade of an old model that focuses on speed, specialized to its pilot, and yet you have moments like Ep.18 where Zeheart is very much outpaced by Asemu and is saved by his magic powers. When they fight in Ep. 20? Once again, you have magic powers (now amplified for more lols) playing a major role and, again, saved Zeheart from getting blown to hell from a single shot of the AGE-2.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Yeah, a 30+ year old machine that was kept up to date, and further upgraded when the AGE system was removed. Flit is also an experienced pilot and top-class x-rounder himself. What's your point? How does Flit not being a pushover make Zeheart a weakling exactly?

So why is this a knock on Asemu but not a knock on Zeheart?

He was saved time and again by the Gundam's power, not his own.

He fought Flit in AGE-1 with the Zeydra, an equivalent to the AGE-2, and yet him being fought to a standstill by Flit is somehow not relevant (and yet Asemu using the tech of the AGE-2 counts against him)? You have as much of a tech wall between Zeydra to AGE-1 as you do from AGE-2 to M8. The moment you remove the magic brain powers as a crutch for Zeheart, he's getting matched by an older machine and certainly skilled pilot.

I equated Flit to Woolf because that lets us indirectly compare Flit to Asemu, though Woolf.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Rewatch the fight, Zeheart was running circles around Kio. He was toying with him AND Seric....It wasn't even a serious fight.
The Wrozzo vs Fortress fight was not a stalemate, Zeheart's mobile suit clearly wasn't up to the task because it's performance was lacking. It lacked firepower, and response time. Had it given out before Kio left Zeheart would've lost and it was all because of the machine, not the pilot.

You're right, the Wrozzo was pretty much unusable after the fight while Kio backed down. As for toying with Kio in the first fight, he sure got awful close to getting his head blown clean off by Kio.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

I love how in your mind X-Rounder powers are a clutch, but Asemu's "Supa Piroto" power up is not. It's even cheesier than X-rounder powers because he just got pissed off and suddenly became a better pilot. Even though he's a good pilot, Asemu would lose to Yurin, not to mention Flit or Zeheart.

The transition is poor but you'd have to be blind to not have seen the show telling you, over and over, that Asemu was an exceptional pilot with exceptional talent. He was just too obsessed with his father, X-Rounders, and Zeheart. When Woolf died and snapped him out of it, he became what he always was but didn't notice. I mean, that was the whole point/moral of his arc.

Gundam has always had pilots who are beyond good in piloting but have no magic powers.

And the rest of what you said is silly.

[Revolutionist]

The AGE-1 is superior to the Zedas and Zedas-R. The latter just received small upgrades to x-rounder compatibility, that's it. For someone who claims to have watched the show, your memory of certain events, particularly those that contradict your opinions, is rather lacking. The Zedas-R was upgraded AFTER Zeheart left the colony, and even then it still couldn't keep up with his reaction speed, not to mention it broke down during its test . So yes, it was inferior to the AGE-1 because the AGE-1 never had any of those problems when Flit used, and Flit is shown to be a high level x-rounder, perhaps not as strong as Zeheart but pretty damn close.

Gundam has always had pilots who are beyond good in piloting but have no magic powers.

Yeah, and they will always be inferior pilots to Amuro, Kamille, Kira, Setsuna...

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

The AGE-1 is superior to the Zedas and Zedas-R. The latter just received small upgrades to x-rounder compatibility, that's it. For someone who claims to have watched the show, your memory of certain events, particularly those that contradict your opinions, is rather lacking. The Zedas-R was upgraded AFTER Zeheart left the colony, and even then it still couldn't keep up with his reaction speed, not to mention it broke down during its test . So yes, it was inferior to the AGE-1 because the AGE-1 never had any of those problems when Flit used, and Flit is shown to be a high level x-rounder, perhaps not as strong as Zeheart but pretty damn close.

AGE-1 was not superior to the Zedas without the Spallow configuration, the Zedas ran circles around it otherwise. (Hence my point, that even in a faster configured unit, the Zedas R, Zeheart was being out paced by a slower unit, the AGE-1 normal.) As for X-Rounder abilities, the comparison is faulty as your comparing a very much recently awakened powers of a kid to those of a trained military serviceman with trained and developed magic powers (a point you seem to continue to conveniently ignore). It is not unlikely that Flit's powers, being fresh, were simply not pushing the AGE-1 to its limits similarly to how Decil's were not pushing the limits on the Zedas at the time.

Zedas-R, in being a custom model, was certainly built and upgraded to match Zeheart's abilities long before its debut. What it receives later are further modifications. Otherwise, why make it a point of giving him a specialized machine? It means its built to match him. It was later upgraded to match his ever increasing abilities.

I'm actually checking each episode I reference as I write, but whatever.

[Revolutionist]

The Zedas-R was not built to match Zeheart's ability. You might want to reference episode 20, specifically the conversation between Zeheart and Daz, right after he damages the Zedas-R testing its upgrade. He says no mobile suit has ever been able to keep up with him, and even with a partial upgrade the Zedas-R is still not sufficient. Daz says to wait until the ZEYDRA is finished. That's because the Zeydra is the mobile suit that's actually built and tuned specifically for Zeheart. All the Zedas-R is, is a Zedas with increaased X-Rounder functionality. It was never specifically designed for Zeheart.

[Rising Dragon]

Keep in mind what the Zedas is--it, like the Gafran, the Baqto, the Dorado, the Wrozzo--a mass production model mobile suit. One intended for X-Rounders, if we take into account every single character who piloted one was an X-Rounder. But still a mass-production model nonetheless. The extent of its tuning for specific people would be limited, like the Wrozzo.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

The Zedas-R was not built to match Zeheart's ability. You might want to reference episode 20, specifically the conversation between Zeheart and Daz, right after he damages the Zedas-R testing its upgrade. He says no mobile suit has ever been able to keep up with him, and even with a partial upgrade the Zedas-R is still not sufficient. Daz says to wait until the ZEYDRA is finished. That's because the Zeydra is the mobile suit that's actually built and tuned specifically for Zeheart. All the Zedas-R is, is a Zedas with increaased X-Rounder functionality. It was never specifically designed for Zeheart.

As its only pilot it WAS built for him (there are no other Zedas-R anywhere in the show (just as the red Wrozzo was custom tuned to his specs even if it too couldn't keep up with his abilities), its his unit and it was built to at least partially express his better abilities), the fact that at the time the technology could not keep up with his magic powers doesn't change that. As technology improved, they improved the Zedas-R until it reached structural limits and then you needed a better base model.

At the end of the day, the Zedas-R, slow and standard issue as it may be, was tuned/built specifically for Zeheart. The AGE-1 was built for Flit by Flit and evolved over years of use by Flit to match him. It was never built, upgraded, or customized to match Asemu's fighting style (as he'd be far more suited for the Spallow configuration, not the Normal).

This is what you have:
Zeheart:
-Trained military pilot since youth.
-Magic powers
-Custom unit to at least accentuate some of his strengths.
vs.
Asemu:
-A civilian with no prior training.
-No magic powers.
-In a unit that neither compliments his fighting style nor one even remotely built with him in mind.
-Normal < Zedas < Spallow as of Gen-1's conclusion.

And yet, in Ep. 18, you have Mr. Trained Service Military Man getting out paced by a kid who picked up the Gundam for the third time in his life. I don't see how, without magic powers, one can claim that Zeheart is better than Asemu.

@Rising, remember that by the time of Gen-2 the AGE-1 is effectively also a mass produced unit, though of better build quality since it was specifically built to be the best it could at the time. The Adelle's are likely not much worse than the AGE-1 as they are based on it but they get trashed by the Zedas. The Zedas was a one of a kind in Gen-1 and Zedas-M is an extension of it, it also becomes mass produced by Gen-2 as we see it in the hands of the M8.

[Revolutionist]

Again, the Zeydra is the only mobile suit that's actually built and fine tuned specifically for Zeheart. The Zedas platform is, despite whatever small cosmetic mods, a mass produced grunt suit.

Flit is almost as strong of an X-Rounder as Zeheart, and he has no problems keeping up with the Zeydra in AGE-1. Mind you that the AGE-1 doesn't have have any issues keeping up with Flit's abilities and it never breaks like the Zedas-R. That right there proves that the upgraded AGE-1 is superior to the Zedas-R.

It doesn't matter if AGE-1 isn't tuned to Asemu, it's still a high performance machine that simply outmuscles the Zedas

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Again, the Zeydra is the only mobile suit that's actually built and fine tuned specifically for Zeheart. The Zedas platform is, despite whatever small cosmetic mods, a mass produced grunt suit.

Zedas-R is a specific model limited to Zeheart, the Zedas-M is limited specifically to M8, the Wrozzo (a truly grunt unit) is not and has no distinction aside from color. The fact that the M8 don't use the Zedas-R but instead a variant Zedas-M would imply that there are machine differences aside from cosmetics, at the very least a tuning difference for the M8 pilots.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but a total of nine Zedas (and the original, so ten in total) =/= mass produced.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Flit is almost as strong of an X-Rounder as Zeheart, and he has no problems keeping up with the Zeydra in AGE-1. Mind you that the AGE-1 doesn't have have any issues keeping up with Flit's abilities and it never breaks like the Zedas-R. That right there proves that the upgraded AGE-1 is superior to the Zedas-R.

The Zedas-R broke when it was being put under an extreme stress test for speed and maneuverability, the AGE-1 Normal was never put under such conditions in Gen-2. Moreover, when the AGE system was removed to be placed in the AGE-2, AGE-1 was given considerable upgrades and made into AGE-1 Flat, this is post AGE-1 Normal vs. Zedas-R. You're comparing a post-upgrade machine (AGE-1 Flat) to a pre-upgrade machine (Zedas-R), this is invalid.

You must compare AGE-1 Normal, pre-Flat, to Zedas-R Standard, in which case there is no clear distinction between the machines aside from what we have in Gen-1 that Spallow >= Zedas >= AGE-1 Normal.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

It doesn't matter if AGE-1 isn't tuned to Asemu, it's still a high performance machine that simply outmuscles the Zedas

Like I said, the AGE-1 and the Zedas-R are upgrades on the originals but as of Gen-1 Spallow >= Zedas >= Normal, and all of this still skirts the issue that Asemu was an untrained civilian, piloting for the third time in his life, fighting a trained militant. The simple fact that the former is true and that Asemu could push back Zeheart, is telling.

[Rising Dragon]

I wouldn't say Asem was untrained. He did pilot other mobile suits in combat situations thanks to his school. Sure, inexperienced in actual military combat but by that third battle he knew what he was doing. Hell, thanks to the Zedas R's reaction time to Zeheart, he almost won that fight.

Where exactly was it said that the FLAT was given considerable upgrades, anyway? We only know it was given equipment to help Flit command in battle, and made so that it didn't need the AGE System to activate. Far as I know, there wasn't any actual combat upgrades installed to the FLAT during its conversion process. It's improvements had come from the AGE System beforehand.