(L) 5 Centimeters per Second

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Originally Posted by Vexx

You're making quite a number of assertions as if they were fact when they are actually just your own interpretation of the evidence. I hate to ruin your tidy day but the real world is a lot murkier than you seem to think and you don't have any special 1:1 correspondence between the models in your brain and reality. That post is just a posterchild piece of evidence that you mistakenly think your views are "concrete" (level 1) while everyone else's are "interpretation" (level 2). You make a lot interesting observations but people are starting to discount you because of that attitude.

Carry on in your little fantasies though

If you cannot provide any examples then you are nothing more than a big contradiction. In fact, you are already a walking big contradiction just by stating those statements. You possessed nothing but opinions and no evidence to support it.

Maybe your real world is murky but my world is filled with sunrise, coffee and butterflies flying all over the place. Your interpretation of your world or real world isn't the one true definition. Maybe if you work a little bit harder or study and put more effort + passion in it, your real world won't be murky.

If you guys are on level 2 then you guys should go back to level 1. You guys probably cheated to get to level 2. If things that are so obvious in level 1 are hard to comprehend then you guys obviously didn't get your level 1 diplomas.

[WanderingKnight]

Your interpretation of your world or real world isn't the one true definition.

Umm, I believe what Vexx was saying was just that? Or do we need to spell it out for you?

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Umm, I believe what Vexx was saying was just that? Or do we need to spell it out for you?

Tell me then.... is the real world murky? Black, gray or white?
I'm saying my real world or THE real world has colors. What is he saying? Tell me. I would like to know.

[WanderingKnight]

What he's saying is that "your" real world is an interpretation. Not a fact. Not automatically true. No matter what colors it has.

If you're not smart enough to understand that, I'm definitely doubting your ability to interpretate a work of art.

[Z3120]

Look, I merely wanted to tell you one perspective (mine) out of many interpretations there could have been and said about B5CM's ending. I wanted you to look how I've gotten my answer, and hopefully, you'd have noticed and compared how you've gotten your answer too: we both got our answers based on how we supported them - through interpretation of various actions and scenes. Like you, I based my position on how I've interpreted my evidence and suggested such happen like you've done too when defending your points. So don't you see? From earlier since I've asked you time and time again, I've been asking you what's with this mysterious double standard you have of accepting your opinions as an ultimatum of truth. While you belittle the opinions of others and deem it nothing more than falsehood, the answers we all concluded of and about B5CM were created through similar means to support it - through interpretation of said actions and event. If you're willing to admit interpretations are endless, yet only situationally, then you fail to see how our evidence of the movie's ending, yours and mine, is supported and based on how we've gathered our answers, which is based on our interpretation.

How is it we can agree to disagree about the letters and their current relationship status at that point yet you deem your interpretation of the ending as absolute fact, and is not based off of your interpretation, which it is? So who's to say your opinion is of superior quality and worth and is fact if we've gotten our answers through the same method? You see, this double standard isn't really making me understand your accusations anymore clearer if you're only being stubborn about admitting the possibility such a type of ending could be there. It's not like we're discussing character relationships in an ongoing anime. There's enough reasons to believe the possibility of a happy or sad ending but not conclusive to ultimately say one type only cannot be there at all, definitely.

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

Takaki is the main character. No one can say for certain whether he ended up with Akari or not. No one can say for certain whether the story ended with a happy ending or sad ending since it's left open. We can come up with 10 million different scenarios on what happens to them after the movie.

You know, there's the possibility someone like me could feel saddened at the movie's ending because both the movie and the story's ending doesn't have a definite closure to Takaki's future. Because I sympathized with Takaki, I felt saddened by that uncertainty surrounding his character. I said this earlier, didn't I? I could damn well vividly live and imagine those mixture of feelings when Takaki kissed Akari and came to his sudden realization of the situation. It's as though wisdom was bestowed upon him as a sign of cruel fate. So now we have to distinguish what? I'm not suppose to feel sad at other possibilities of Takaki's future because it's definite he moved on? Again, it's how you've interpreted his smile and what lead you to believe how B5CM ended, and me also.

Which brings me back to what you seem to have trouble comprehending: that your definition of what is a happy ending and how B5CM is your interpretation and is one out of many like mine and others of the movie's ending. You're free to choose not to believe my hypothesis, and likewise, my beliefs on yours. But when you're completely ignoring the odds of a sad ending based on your opinion alone and lack of evidence to clearly suggest happiness definitely happened, your interpretation doesn't carry magically carry more weight then mine and that's besides the point whether I'm right or wrong with what I came up with. You can continue to adamantly believe what it is you think of B5CM's ending; I'm not even saying a happy ending is wrong at all. Absolutely not. It's when you're denying the mere possibility of a sad ending when there isn't enough evidence to suggest within the context of the movie to say, otherwise, none at all.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and of listening and agreeing or agreeing to disagree with others' opinions in general; but I at least wish you respect those other opinions and discreetly explain your reasoning behind it instead of fallaciously believing your points are sound facts, above others and forcing them onto others when yours equally weigh as much as the next person considering how everyone obtained their answers: an interpretation based on their own unique, similar or contrasting perspective on life, experiences culminated in various aspects of life, matters of emotional feelings and how we see view certain actions and scenes. If you can't understand how you've outright denied my interpretation of the movie and labeled it as completely false when yours is also based on interpretation too like mine and don't see logically the double standard you've set yourself for, then you're a hypocrite when you say you'll listen but already deem your thoughts are facts yet my thoughts is worth nothing more than a casual rumor.

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

However, people can say with 100% accuracy and certainty whether the movie ended with a happy ending or a sad ending or inspiring or even bittersweet. The movie had an ending. So we have information and from that information we can write a conclusion without speculation. We do not have information about what happens between both of them after the movie but we have information on the movie ending since we all get to see it. While the story is left open, the movie in itself had an ending and from that ending we can conclude whether or not it was sad, happy or whatever. I hope I made that clear.

I think it's you who didn't get the impression I could very well be sad there was no story ending by the time the movie ended. I can't be sad of that or something? And again, there's also just as much to suggest happiness isn't the one and only definitive type of ending - Happy, Sad, Bittersweet and etc.

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

Now I will explain why the movie ending was never sad. If you guys or girls truly understood Takaki's character then you will see that from chapter 2 and so forth, he is plagued by a psychological disease. He never got rid of this plague till the end where he decided to move on which is confirmed in the novel. So I will put it in layman's terms. Takaki was in deep despair and it not only affected him but also the people close to him. He never found salvation or a glimpse of hope till the end where he decided to move on. So for Takaki, just being able to defeat his own demons or rise up from the bottom of the barrel is in itself a happy ending.

Again, that's your interpretation of his smile and how things ended up that lead to a happy ending. And please, don't bother belittling people again. Come on? What's with the need for "truly understanding"? What I'm trying to get you to understand and notice is that there is as equally likely, more or less, for a sad ending. If you were to interpret certain things before the movie's ending differently like I did, couldn't you see how I've gotten my answer? What I was getting at in the very first paragraph when I've talked about my impressions and answer was how our perspective of the ending is influenced by how we've interpreted those actions and events up to the railroad crossing. I'm not even denying your ending isn't possible. It definitely is. But it isn't the only one ending everyone who watches B5CM must get. The fact you're weighing your "true understanding" above all others when yours has equal weight like many others and feel the need to act superior is already disrespectful enough how you don't realize nor bother to understand how me and others approach their answers to B5CM.

My interpretation could very well be 100% wrong, but you seem to have a very distinct black and white picture of the world. Simply because B5CM ends on a happy note and how you've interpreted the smile doesn't exactly make it definitely clear the ending ended in happiness. And again, you've interpreted B5CM ended on a happy one. You actually ignored one (a few) of my points. You didn't even bat a response to my first paragraph when I explicitly, first and foremost, talked about Takaki's smile (and how, depending on the interpretation and one's perspective of life's many complexities in describing certain actions and scenes throughout the movie, the ending could likely be a happy or sad one).

For your absolute happiness ending claim to have some grounds, if you couldn't refute there can't even be more than one interpretation of that smile, there isn't much grounds you can say otherwise for there not being any sad endings. Why must you get rid of the sadness idea completely without first assessing how you've determined your answers and strength of them? It isn't that their weak points or arguments. It's how you've somehow automatically assume what you say is definitely correct without taking into consideration and respecting a perspective that holds equal weight. There's no shame in admitting you can't surmise or fathom how B5CM's ending is sad. The best experience to understand those sentiments are to go through them yourself. If you're unfamiliar with such sadness, then me explaining and quantifying why it's sad can only do some much for you to understand my life in general.

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

Now I will explain to you guys why the movie ending was never bitter sweet. To put it simply, it's magic. Magic made it bittersweet. Shinkai made magic to happen. To be more precise, he performed a simple magic trick. Shinkai, made the two characters perfect for each other. He built it up and built it up some more all through out the movie. In the end, when you guys didn't see them ending up together, your mind played a big suggestion to you guys which is that they didn't end up together. It's like a magic trick, when see a magician perform, our mind does suggest magic. Anyway, we really don't know whether they end up together or not since the story is left open and even Shinkai admitted that there should be more to the story. So the power of suggestion suggests that they never ended with each other but the things is, we really don't know that. However it's too late. We were already amazed by the magic to believe it is anything else. Our mind at that time is already enjoying and entertaining that possibility. So while the truth is that the magician was never floating in the air, walking in the air or flying, he was being held be a thin wire. The truth is also the same with 5cm which is it was never bittersweet. It was all smoke and mirrors. The mind just suggested it.

Magic? You, yourself, said we don't know if they ended up together or not based on the possibility of hundreds of different interpretations on what could have been happened to Takaki's fate after the movie's end. Don't sugarcoat your answer if you aren't sure yourself of what you exactly believed happened to Takaki or have an opinion of it. I don't sense an opinion from you here. You're just being as ambiguous as the type of ending to B5CM. So you're saying they end up together or not? I want an exact answer from you. If they end up together, then it's a happy ending by your account depending what you mean by togetherness. You said it's magic that clouded our judgments so we believed Takaki and Akari don't end up together, but they do (a chance of it?) anyways because magic made our minds suggest it weren't possible at all - in which case, I thought it was a sad ending because I absolutely saw no chance of them being together again so I cried since the reality imagine I thought was absolute when it was merely a delusion by "magic"? So you think there's enough to suggest they do could get together again? In what form of togetherness? Without evidence from the novel now...

Look, reason why it's a no-no with the novel? If you stated together with the novel, there was evidence to prove the movie ending was a happy one, you very well should have said it by now these last few days. But when you had to reference the novel that was made after the movie to confirm your suspicions to prove your point, that's reaching badly. If you had to look beyond the context of the movie itself and confirm your point by quoting such indeed happened in the novel, then I find you're being quite stubborn and ignorant of what possibilities, happy or sad, the movie's ending could be, when you downplay my notions. Look at B5CM as a standalone. By bringing the novel as evidence, you're only confirming there isn't enough to absolutely prove your point flawlessly when watching the movie. And bringing the novel up now as evidence is making little sense of your absolute happiness ending claim when all interpretations made were based on the givens of B5CM and how we've interpreted it. If you meant B5CM ended happily if you including the evidence in the novels, then you should have said that long ago to get out of this argument. But when you're clearly suggesting the movie's ending is a happy one? I doubt that very much.

So somehow, because you've seen through this ruse by Shinkai, there's enough ample evidence to suggest Takaki and Akari could end up together in some form, even if the chance is so remotely small? What happened afterwards from the movie's ending is up in the air, especially Takaki's. But if you're gonna claim entertaining B5CM's one of many small chances of possibilities of happening is enough to say I should be happy of that glimmer of hope and acknowledge the movie's ending is a happy one, how's it any different from me not seeing them together and being SAD about that? Quite frankly, if you're basically playing on the fact the possibility of them never being together again is not 100% guaranteed, and the only reason I felt B5CM's ending was sad and was a sad one because I definitely thought - through Shinkai's magic - they would never be together again after the railroad crossing when in reality, Shinkai's magic confused my common sense or mind to realize that the chance of them meeting again isn't entirely removed? So oh! I should feel happy and acknowledge the ending was a happy one because there's such a slim chance they could meet again in some form (sarcasm)? What happy ending occurred to you? What in that happy ending happened?

You said it earlier, if Takaki vanished those demons from within himself and moved on from Akari, his "psychological disease", wouldn't they not ever be together again except by a rare coincidence since he moved on from her? If he moved on, wouldn't that remove the need of wanting to meet Akari again? So which is it? And what togetherness are you speaking of? Friendship? Marital? Your absolute happiness ending claim isn't sitting well with me. Do you see them being friends or a couple?

When you, yourself, said 2 pages ago;

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

No matter how you look at it, it's not really a sad ending. Maybe it's a sad story but the ending is by no means sad. Even if you say they both moved on, that's a good ending since both characters lived, there were no tragedies, and they lead a happy life afterward. While it's not a fairy tale happy ending, it's definitely not a sad one.

Just because you don't see a tragedy, doesn't mean there wasn't one. And because you don't understand how it was sad, doesn't mean there wasn't a sad ending because you don't understand it. Does not apply for all things. But for B5CM and what's evidentially presented to suggest specifically there is only 1 definitive type of ending? There quite simply isn't enough to backup that radical claim.

[Vexx]

Wow... he really missed the whole point, didn't he?

Level 1: Hard data points. Reality at the top plane. This could also be construed as raw sensory inputs. No one lives here.

Level 2: Interpretation of sensory collections of data points. One level of detachment. Own previous experience involved. Where everyone including Fuzzy exists.

I wasn't providing "evidence" because I'm not supporting or denying any particular interpretation -- only that Fuzzy was, by fiat, denying any other interpretation than his own as the One True Interpretation. In effect, he was asserting his interpretation as Reality instead of his own best guess given the data.

I'd like to think that perhaps this is a language problem underlying things (but I'm not betting on it) .... basically, no matter how well-evidenced (data support) an interpretation is -- it is still an interpretation. Some interpretations stand up better to scrutiny than others. That's why people compare notes about what they perceive. I actually agree with many of his interpretations... but I also agree with several other posters because several potentialities exist simultaneously.

Also, a film is a conversation between the filmmaker and the viewer. Each brings their own history to the experience. Whatever the filmmaker intends is only half the equation and really good film makers understand that.

Whether protagonist is "happy" at the end doesn't automatically determine that an ending was "happy" (unless the viewer has a really selfish viewpoint). Viewers often empathize and relate to many characters in a film --- for many people, a "happy" ending implies everyone got a good result. That indeed seemed to happened in this film. However, the initial romance didn't quite survive the film. That made the film a bit less happy for some viewers (and it doesn't matter what the source novel contains if it wasn't communicated in the film). Filmmakers who make great films understand this two-way conversation between the viewer and the maker -- often they'll work to make sure that people talk about, discuss, and interpret their works for long after the film is over.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

I'm not going to argue with interpretations. That is stupid. You don't try to prove something with theories. You need facts stating your claim. Which is why I said, there can be 10 million scenarios after the movie. We won't know which one. You guys can argue all you want that your interpretation is correct but no one knows.

The same way with the movie. You can't use something you interpret as evidence to state your claim. I can come up with 1 million interpretations proving my claim but I won't do that. I'll go by what is in the movie.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

What he's saying is that "your" real world is an interpretation. Not a fact. Not automatically true. No matter what colors it has.

If you're not smart enough to understand that, I'm definitely doubting your ability to interpretate a work of art.

Didn't I say that? That his world maybe murky but that doesn't mean everyone is or it is the single most definitive truth.

Originally Posted by Vexx

I wasn't providing "evidence" because I'm not supporting or denying any particular interpretation -- only that Fuzzy was, by fiat, denying any other interpretation than his own as the One True Interpretation. In effect, he was asserting his interpretation as Reality instead of his own best guess given the data.

That's where you are wrong. I'm not stating my interpretation. I'm stating things that happened in the movie. They are not interpretations, they happened, confirmed in the movie and even by the director. This is the reason why you guys will never be right since you guys are going by your interpretation. I'm not going by my interpretation but things that happened in the movie.

Originally Posted by Z3120

How is it we can agree to disagree about the letters and their current relationship status at that point yet you deem your interpretation of the ending as absolute fact, and is not based off of your interpretation, which it is? So who's to say your opinion is of superior quality and worth and is fact if we've gotten our answers through the same method? You see, this double standard isn't really making me understand your accusations anymore clearer if you're only being stubborn about admitting the possibility such a type of ending could be there. It's not like we're discussing character relationships in an ongoing anime. There's enough reasons to believe the possibility of a happy or sad ending but not conclusive to ultimately say one type only cannot be there at all, definitely.

I brought up the novel because we can interpret the smile in the end a million ways but even if there's a million possibilities, only 1 concrete proof and that is it is a definitive proof that it's a smile that means he moved on. It can be a smile that can state he was happy in the future, pretending to be happy or laughing at his life, etc. So it can be he is happy and he moved on, or he is pretending but he still moved on or whatever. Fact is, he moved on.

Novel or movie, it's the same thing. They all come from the mind of the same guy. That guy is trying to express the same story.

[WanderingKnight]

Didn't I say that? That his world maybe murky but that doesn't mean everyone is or it is the single most definitive truth.

Uuh, yeah... so then, may I remind you of what you stated 2 pages ago?

I'm always right in the end so that's not true.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Originally Posted by Z3120

Just because you don't see a tragedy, doesn't mean there wasn't one. And because you don't understand how it was sad, doesn't mean there wasn't a sad ending because you don't understand it. Does not apply for all things. But for B5CM and what's evidentially presented to suggest specifically there is only 1 definitive type of ending? There quite simply isn't enough to backup that radical claim.

The ending could be a lot of things. I'm stating which one's it is not and which one it is. It's a happy ending because Takaki moved on. Just because he moved on doesn't mean he won't fall for her again. It could be inspiring, it could be jaw dropping, it could be anything, but I'm stating what it is not and what it is.

So it could be happy, sad, inspiring, jawdropping, cliff hanger, etc.
Then we cross out sad because of the facts I stated, so it's no longer sad. We can keep happy because of the facts I stated also. Then things go from there.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Uuh, yeah... so then, may I remind you of what you stated 2 pages ago?

I'm still right. I don't see the problem.

[Vexx]

Wow.... I actually feel sorry for this guy. He's doomed to go through life being "red dotted" socially because of his basic misunderstanding that there's a difference between raw data and his interpretation of data.

I'm not going by my interpretation but things that happened in the movie.

One last try: Fuzzy, you're *interpreting* the events you perceived in the movie. You're ascribing motivations based on your interpretation of the actions and dialog you saw. You're bringing your own personal understanding of the world into interpreting those events. A fact is an event, not an explanation of an event (interpretation). An example of a fact is "Takaki smiled." An interpretation is *why* he smiled.

This is basic science. It's why 20 witnesses to a crime can assert 20 different stories about what happened. If you can't grasp that and couple it with the attitude that your version of reality is the only possibility, then you're probably doomed in any social relationship much less just talking about little anime movies with people.

I've already spoken about the conversation that is the director's intent and what people take from it so I won't go over that again, but

Novel or movie, it's the same thing. They all come from the mind of the same guy. That guy is trying to express the same story.

The movie is an adaptation of the novel or vice versa. They occurred sequentially and people evolve their ideas as they change mediums and as they continue to think about the story they're writing.
You're now ascribing your opinion that the guy is trying to "tell the same story" .... yes, he may be trying to get the same ideas across but the restrictions of the two mediums mean that something *will* change in translation. It is filtered and colored by the medium. It is inherent in the process. And in the end, it is the viewer who has to interpret the sensory experience and artists *like* to hear that people got a variety of experiences out of it.

Tag... someone else's turn

[WanderingKnight]

This is basic science. It's why 20 witnesses to a crime can assert 20 different stories about what happened.

It's also why literary and film critics and analysts spend entire books discussing literary and film masterpieces, each bringing together a different interpretation of what the author truly wished to express. And unless they have a direct line to the author, they will never be "right".

FuzzyWuzzy, however, seems to be stomping all over these venerable thinkers with his twisted logic.

[Vexx]

I'm thinking he fails a lot of literature and arts classes.... can you imagine how that rhetoric would go over with the professor (or the students for that matter)?

but... that's getting off topic. There was an update from ADV on what titles they've dropped. They only mentioned two drops were reported in error. So far 5cm/s is still in limbo.
Considering the awards and praise of the film -- I'd be surprised if someone didn't pick it up even as a quality "loss leader".

[Z3120]

This is becoming pointless in futility if you, yourself, don't realize before criticizing others you should equally scrutinized your own opinions the same way. I've said it earlier and I'll say it again, but you're stating more contradictions by not seeing the fallacy in your own argumentative logic if you don't carefully examine how you've come to your conclusion and how everyone else has: through interpretation.

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

The same way with the movie. You can't use something you interpret as evidence to state your claim. I can come up with 1 million interpretations proving my claim but I won't do that. I'll go by what is in the movie.

But that's what you've been doing too! And how you've interpreted the movie's ending and what lead up to it. B5CM's ending and what concluded at that point is based on the following actions and scenes you or anyone else uniquely interpreted to mean. That means yours is as false as mine if you don't realize how both of us came to our answers. I didn't even bring up the idea in my last post how, when you were talking about magic, you were basically speaking on behalf of the director, Shinkai, when he hasn't said as much himself within the context of the movie to suggest straightforwardly by the movie's ending it was indeed a happy one. You didn't even explain your own logic of the possibility of meeting again makes for an absolute happiness ending claim. You don't want to bother with much less a few interpretations? It's you who doesn't realize the very basic foundation of your arguments is based on interpretation alone! Just like mine, yours and everyone else's.

Unless Shinkai plainly says so, I doubt you should be doing directly speaking on behalf of the director when again, your answer you've gotten is equally as likely as mine to have occurred because we've interpreted said things to happen in our minds. The ambiguity of what exactly, without a decimals error, could have happened at the movie's ending and concluded about Takaki has definitely moved on isn't enough.

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

That's where you are wrong. I'm not stating my interpretation. I'm stating things that happened in the movie. They are not interpretations, they happened, confirmed in the movie and even by the director. This is the reason why you guys will never be right since you guys are going by your interpretation. I'm not going by my interpretation but things that happened in the movie.

Stating things what happened in the movie based on your interpretation of what experiences were occurring... If that isn't interpretation on your behalf and anyone else's like mine, how is it confirmed by the director, let alone in the movie? Again, you've interpreted those things from happening like my thoughts on certain matter too. If you can't distinguish how you've been reading the following actions and scenes in B5CM as nothing but interpretation on your behalf except acknowledging it's absolute fact because you can't understand you are interpreting it, then there's really no point in arguing with you because I don't see someone who has a good reason for such a radical claim.

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

I brought up the novel because we can interpret the smile in the end a million ways but even if there's a million possibilities, only 1 concrete proof and that is it is a definitive proof that it's a smile that means he moved on. It can be a smile that can state he was happy in the future, pretending to be happy or laughing at his life, etc. So it can be he is happy and he moved on, or he is pretending but he still moved on or whatever. Fact is, he moved on.

You're selectively choosing what you want to hear or something now? The fact you had to use the novel to justify your claims on the movie shows you enough the ambiguity of what could have transpired in the movie. There couldn't be a definitive for the type of one ending to occur since there isn't enough in the movie alone to suggest it. Keep with one argument. You're contradicting yourself on what you're trying to present. Even your own opinions seems as ambiguous as B5CM's ending if you take into account you have yet to clarify exactly what kind of magic you're suggesting everyone who believes in a sad ending is so blind to see. You're actually destroying your argument by reaching to a source that was published after the movie just to justify your point when the entire time you've been arguing how definitely, by the movie's end, we should have definitely gotten the impression Takaki moved on. You stated that much as of your side of the argument as fact. But come on, what happened to your magic claim? Before you sprout shenanigans of what people are talking about from what you've interpreted as nonsense and senselessly reaching for something else to happen at B5CM's ending, you really must take a look at the points you present and how much of a contradiction it presents on behalf of your argument. There's only so much I can say if the limitation is beyond your comprehension of understand moot points of how an argument is reached, especially when a discussion of interpretations is being talked over and about.

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

The ending could be a lot of things. I'm stating which one's it is not and which one it is. It's a happy ending because Takaki moved on. Just because he moved on doesn't mean he won't fall for her again. It could be inspiring, it could be jaw dropping, it could be anything, but I'm stating what it is not and what it is.

Again, you're stating your opinion of how you've interpreted those events. In which case, you've interpreted the smile as Takaki moving onward. And about Takaki falling in love with Akari again, of course it could happen, but realize, it's your interpretation to what lead to what you think could possibly happen out of the hundreds of other interpretations.

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

So it could be happy, sad, inspiring, jawdropping, cliff hanger, etc.
Then we cross out sad because of the facts I stated, so it's no longer sad. We can keep happy because of the facts I stated also. Then things go from there.

Look, I can't get any clearer than I have been if you're selectively choosing to ignore and fail to examine your own points and how you present them. The weight of those points were derived the same way everyone else's has achieved them and if you can't fathom a trace or similarity to how bias you're sounding when you're basically using the same method of argumentation yet acting in superiority your opinion is above others, then there isn't much for me to say, much less how the ending is sad.

Edit: Posted Today, Moved to here from Page 48

Spoiler:

This is my last response to you regarding B5CM's ending. And our most informal.

Again, it has never been about who has the more correct or better interpretation, and it's only one interpretation out of hundreds possible. I wanted to point out your criticisms of my interpretation are the exact reasons you're using to justify your position. Hell, I wanted you to notice something comparable to your own when thoughts are processed and how we determine our answers through similar means meant: interpretation. For you not to notice that double standard you hide yourself behind, you're only shunning yourself and stunting your growth as a able writer, and a creative one, by acting as obnoxious and oblivious to the fact it's you who needs to change, adapt and mature beyond your years, not me, before you want to enter a discussion civilly. Only you haven't realized the reasons you've given to support your claims and criticizing me of is as likely to fall from truth as mine when you selectively choose to ignore things beyond your perception of your adamant, self-gratifying truth. You sir, cannot appreciate a good argument, must less one that holds equally, if not, more or less what you are egotistically cherishing.

There's nothing wrong in admitting you're wrong! You can only grow from there by your mistakes. Discussions will be heated, it's a given. But for someone who is unable to appreciate a good argument? Or even admit to agree to disagree? It sounds more like a lack of understanding nor willingness to accept an equal proposition. You're not a genius. You only think you are. That's how your writing has been coming off as, pretentiousness.

If you shun the exact, same method done to reach your conclusion, you're blinded by your selfishness to learn yet you always want to feel superior in some way. Don't be talking about who's absolutely wrong when you are the worse judge of criticism on yourself.

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

I like the red dot. While all the frogs are in the well, I'm a fish swimming in the ocean. So how do I explain an ocean to a multitude of frogs in a well? You can't since they will just give you a red dot.

This whole time we've been arguing, between me and you, it's been about you learning to accept skepticism. The worse offense you've done was time and time again being unable to display civilly your points across without belittling people, and you always find ways to belittle people. You constantly want to hold your self-esteem of utmost superiority above others and think your intelligence is that of a genius when you've done nothing but warrant ideas of yourself being a closed-minded, unreasonable person and limited to understanding and discussing openly about broad topics. Don't be acting all high and mighty when you're sprouting nothing but elitist nonsense only you think is the only correct answer and is a given you assume and interpret everyone will understand by your aforementioned illogical "assertions".

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

Actually, I join short story contests all over the Internet as a hobby. My professors go bonkers however since whenever they ask a 2 page report, I would write a 10 page. When they would ask the whole class to rewrite the paper to correct grammar mistakes, I would write another 10 page with the opposite point of view. Not really my fault, I can see characters and what the author is trying to express through them.

You don't see why they would be mystified by what you've done? One reason I see for the 2 page limit is for students to learn good habits and try to condense and precisely tell what they are talking of and about with powerful, short and simple, direct sentences. Many professors won't mind if it's a few pages over the said limit as their flexible. But for you needing to go extraordinarily beyond their restrictions, also shows you, yourself, are indecisive to what you're saying. You actually have contradicted yourself throughout with your points numerous times we have talked.

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

You don't know that which is why the movie ending cannot be sad.

This double standard you've established and that hypocritical act of yours to never listen intently nor change your ideas is because you either cannot realize nor wish to understand any flaws in your logic. It's is pretentiousness on your behalf. "Pretentious crap" (Kitchen Nightmare is the bomb).

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

They are all facts. The first two are not as you say "perceived by most people". So who are the one's that didn't see it like that? Babies, people that don't understand japanese or english, deaf people, maybe cats and dogs? Spin the words more, maybe it may become the truth. The last one is already confirmed by the author/director. They are all facts.

I ain't even going to bother to comment the first two sentences since this is dragged out long enough. The last one, within the context of the movie, has not been confirmed. Quit quoting the novel if you aren't so sure you can say with absolute certainty the movie's ending was indeed happiness. That's been your whole argument the whole time. Your argument just turns out weak if you have to reach.

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

My bad, I didn't see this one. I should have been more precise or clear. Most people, when a loved one close to them passed away, they become sad. There are also people when they see butterfly, nothing happens which are normal people. But there are people with mental issues that when they see a Butterfly, they become sad. So of course I should have been more clear, I should have said normal people.

You felt sad because you are uncertain of Takaki's future? So uncertainty makes you feel sad. Heaven forbid you wake up in the morning and you don't know what's going to happen that day. You may start crying your eyes out the moment you wake up. Maybe if you go to McDonalds, you start screaming and crying cause you are uncertain whether you should pick value meal 1 or value meal 2.

Maybe I shouldn't say this but uncertainty is part of everyday life..... ooooh crap, don't slit your wrist now, ok?

Also I'm not going to argue interpretations like I said. The smile can mean a lot of things but we have a definitive proof that one of them is that he moved on.

You totally missed my point when I talked in a first person view. If you're forcing your values and traditions on how others should feel because it doesn't fit in your view, then you completely dismissing you can ever be wrong. There are many things to this world. Just because the world isn't shaped according to you, doesn't mean it's false. That's what you're doing and have been doing this entire time.

Look, your definition of sadness is your interpretation of how people should feel sad and at what, just like your absolute happiness ending claim. But don't be so naive that if you can't understand something, you deem it as completely false.

And your interpretation on who I am and my identify? I can't believe you've gone so low and petty you had to stooped that low to assume when you seldom, if ever, had the decency to listen to any opinion for that matter. Don't be talking like you know me or every value in the world. That's your interpretation of this world in general in your eyes. I never admitted that uncertainty was what made me sad. Like you, the possibility of being sad at such a thing exists like of Takaki and Akari meeting again and falling in love so we should be happy of that. You're contradicting yourself again. Where's the magic?

Time and time again, you always find belittling people to make your statements prove a point worthless. And what a way to take feeling sympathetic for one uncertainty out of context. You used the very same point to argue I should be happy! Don't be so contradictory.

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

We have gone off topic with so many attacks to my character. LIKE I SAID OVER AND OVER!!! Prove to me that it is not a sad ending then I'll consider that possibility. There's really no evidence that it is a sad ending. No matter how you guys spin it or attack my character, you won't be able to prove it since it's not a sad ending. So in the end, I'm still right.

In almost all your responses, you always have the knack or need to belittle people. It's you that doesn't need or should resort to attack someone's character like you just did to me. And the reason why we can't stay on topic? Because you can't understand I've been trying to get you to understand how your thinking process is formed, just like ours, except you accept your opinions as fact and used that as evidence to prove your point YET criticize me for doing the same.

If you couldn't understand the more clearer, more condensed explanations given by these kind of folks, then it's like I've said in my last post: it's pointless in futility on my behalf. A good argument cannot be made if there is no understanding nor respect on both sides, 2 attributes you seem to lack, much less, having a decent argument is next to impossible nor will any improvement be made. Your refusal to change, but really, listen will not only affect your future literary skills but your ability to socially understand the many intricacies and unique perspectives people have regarding certain subject matters. If one isn't willing to change their views and adjust accordingly when listening to criticism, especially about themselves, then you aren't a good judge of any open or broad discussions using opinions.

The points you've stated have always in some form or way been demeaning and disrespectful to an equal argument of weight.

If you can't realize the fault of this argument derailing is your fault for being unable to compromise even remotely with your selfish attitude, then there's nothing further I can do to tell you of any intricacies of what sadness there is in B5CM.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

K let's point out what I said.

Tell me which is the interpretation and which is a confirmed fact.

Takaki cannot moved on. He still longs for Akari and this is affecting his relationship with people close to him in a bad way. In the end, he moved on.

So tell me, is that an interpretation or is that what actually happened in the movie. You guys are interpreting, I am not.

[Vexx]

The first two sentences are summarizations of events in the movie as perceived by most people. The third is an interpretation by you (though I also happen to interpret his silent actions as "moving on". It also happens I interpret his actions as ambiguous because it seemed he was thinking about turning around until the train blocked that choice).

But that is a small fraction of all the assertions you've made over the last few pages, mingling facts and interpretation, asserting them all as facts while deriding any other interpretations as stupid and wrong while ignoring supporting evidence the posters provide.

Moving on -- healthier for Takaki possibly. Akari moving on with her life -- healthier for her possibly. That is an assessment of their apparent mental state.

The loss of the potentiality of their romance --- sad to many people, wistfulness for what could have been. That's why some call it bittersweet - which means victory but some loss.

All literature and film is, by definition, interpreted by its audiences and there can be many variations depending on what each viewer finds important to them.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

Tell me which is the interpretation and which is a confirmed fact.

Takaki cannot moved on. He still longs for Akari and this is affecting his relationship with people close to him in a bad way.

Fact.

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

In the end, he moved on.

Interpretation.



It's hard to know the extent to which he "moved on". Did he move on by deciding, at last, to forget about Akari? Or did he move on by deciding to focus on rebuilding his life, but still cherishing his memories of Akari?

By the end of the movie, it seems that Takaki is in better shape. His room is brighter and airier. He doesn't seem to be drinking heavily or chain-smoking any more. On that note, we can be happy for him.

However, it's also clear he hasn't forgotten Akari. He's pretty sure that, if she were to look back at the moment (which moment? under the tree or at the train crossing? Takaki didn't specify), she'd still remember it strongly. He still thinks of her, and yet at the point they meet again, she didn't stay for him. Not even to say hello. That seems cruel on Akari's part. Hence the sadness.

Maybe he's accepted that whatever they had is all in the past, just as Akari seems to have done. But most viewers are likely to feel sad that fate has cruelly pulled them apart, two people who seemed so right for each other.

So yes, we can perhaps be happy that both Takaki and Akari have moved on with their lives, but we can also be sad they never managed to be together again. Therefore, bittersweet ending.

Meh, so much focus on Takaki and Akari. I feel very sad for Kanae too. Takaki's a complete idiot for being so cold towards her. Surfer girls are so much cuter (not to mention, probably a lot better in bed!).

Originally Posted by Wandering Knight

It's also why literary and film critics and analysts spend entire books discussing literary and film masterpieces, each bringing together a different interpretation of what the author truly wished to express. And unless they have a direct line to the author, they will never be "right".

An honest writer will be the first to admit that he doesn't own his characters. They belong to everyone — to him, to the reader, but most of all, to the characters themselves. A writer doesn't make his characters "do something" against their wishes. They tell him what they are going to do, in his head.

Which is to say, so what if a critic has a direct line to a writer? I am free to intepret the evidence within the context of a creation, and in that creation alone. Many people continually make the mistake of using evidence outside of an anime to support their arguments. As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't appear in the anime, then it's inadmissable evidence.

In other words, I couldn't care less if Takaki and Akari found each other again and lived happily ever after in Shinkai's novel. That is a fact to affect my evaluation of the novel, but not the anime.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Wow.... I actually feel sorry for this guy. He's doomed to go through life being "red dotted" socially

I like the red dot. While all the frogs are in the well, I'm a fish swimming in the ocean. So how do I explain an ocean to a multitude of frogs in a well? You can't since they will just give you a red dot.

Originally Posted by Vexx

I'm thinking he fails a lot of literature and arts classes.... can you imagine how that rhetoric would go over with the professor (or the students for that matter)?

Actually, I join short story contests all over the Internet as a hobby. My professors go bonkers however since whenever they ask a 2 page report, I would write a 10 page. When they would ask the whole class to rewrite the paper to correct grammar mistakes, I would write another 10 page with the opposite point of view. Not really my fault, I can see characters and what the author is trying to express through them.

Originally Posted by Vexx

The loss of the potentiality of their romance --- sad to many people, wistfulness for what could have been. That's why some call it bittersweet - which means victory but some loss.

You don't know that which is why the movie ending cannot be sad.

This is basic science. It's why 20 witnesses to a crime can assert 20 different stories about what happened.

But this is where your analogy fails and where you fail to understand also. There can be 20 stories or a million but there is only 1 truth or 1 true story. How do detectives and CSI's find that story? Evidence.

The first two sentences are summarizations of events in the movie as perceived by most people. The third is an interpretation by you (though I also happen to interpret his silent actions as "moving on".

They are all facts. The first two are not as you say "perceived by most people". So who are the one's that didn't see it like that? Babies, people that don't understand japanese or english, deaf people, maybe cats and dogs? Spin the words more, maybe it may become the truth. The last one is already confirmed by the author/director. They are all facts.

An honest writer will be the first to admit that he doesn't own his characters. They belong to everyone — to him, to the reader, but most of all, to the characters themselves. A writer doesn't make his characters "do something" against their wishes. They tell him what they are going to do, in his head.

WOW!! Where the crap did you get that idea. lol. The characters belong to the author. The fact that there are people writing and making money off doujinshi proves you are wrong. If you are right then the characters in doujinshi's should be considered Takaki's or Akari or any anime character's true nature since the characters belong to everyone according to you. LOL seriously, WOW lol!!

Anyway, your logic is still flawed. So if Takaki's character tells Shinkai in his head that he moved, then he moved on. So when Shinkai wrote it in the novel since Takaki told Shinkai he moved on, then Takaki really moved on. So by your logic, Takaki moved on.

BTW, I did say it's a sad story but not a sad ending. It just occurred to me that maybe you don't know- Shinkai wrote the novel and directed the movie.

You know, there's the possibility someone like me could feel saddened at the movie's ending because both the movie and the story's ending doesn't have a definite closure to Takaki's future. Because I sympathized with Takaki, I felt saddened by that uncertainty surrounding his character. I said this earlier, didn't I? I could damn well vividly live and imagine those mixture of feelings when Takaki kissed Akari and came to his sudden realization of the situation. It's as though wisdom was bestowed upon him as a sign of cruel fate. So now we have to distinguish what? I'm not suppose to feel sad at other possibilities of Takaki's future because it's definite he moved on? Again, it's how you've interpreted his smile and what lead you to believe how B5CM ended, and me also.

My bad, I didn't see this one. I should have been more precise or clear. Most people, when a loved one close to them passed away, they become sad. There are also people when they see butterfly, nothing happens which are normal people. But there are people with mental issues that when they see a Butterfly, they become sad. So of course I should have been more clear, I should have said normal people.

You felt sad because you are uncertain of Takaki's future? So uncertainty makes you feel sad. Heaven forbid you wake up in the morning and you don't know what's going to happen that day. You may start crying your eyes out the moment you wake up. Maybe if you go to McDonalds, you start screaming and crying cause you are uncertain whether you should pick value meal 1 or value meal 2.

Maybe I shouldn't say this but uncertainty is part of everyday life..... ooooh crap, don't slit your wrist now, ok?

Also I'm not going to argue interpretations like I said. The smile can mean a lot of things but we have a definitive proof that one of them is that he moved on.



We have gone off topic with so many attacks to my character. LIKE I SAID OVER AND OVER!!! Prove to me that it is not a sad ending then I'll consider that possibility. There's really no evidence that it is a sad ending. No matter how you guys spin it or attack my character, you won't be able to prove it since it's not a sad ending. So in the end, I'm still right.

[TinyRedLeaf]

We don't need to attack your character. The quality of your replies are plain for all to see and read. For someone who writes 10-page reports when a two-page report suffices, you demonstrate a boneheaded unwillingness to learn.

And as for my remark about how writers honestly feel about their characters, go talk to a published one sometime. I know I have. One of them has even won a Booker Prize. He's the one whose quote I've paraphrased, a sentiment I've seen echoed by every great writer I've had the privilege to meet.

Hmm... perhaps your professors "go bonkers" not so much for the quality of your work, but for your inability to stop while you're ahead (or behind, as the case may be). You've got a lot to learn kid.

[Vexx]

I'll amplify on TinyRedLeaf's remarks. FW, you've *ignored* all the evidence given so far. You simply keep shouting your simplistic position as the One True Understanding and failed to actually discuss other possibilities of nuance. So it really doesn't matter what you think because those are the attributes of a zealot.

I teach for a living and I've been showing this thread and your posts to some fellow teachers (also anime fans). You'd fail our classes so fast your head would spin with your pathetic egotistical prattle, broken rationalizations and your contradictory responses. Your stated behavior in class about writing assignments ... had a couple of literary teachers saying they'd fail you on the spot today. I won't even wish you luck in your endeavors because I think you need to have multiple serious failures to have a chance of gaining a clue about literary analysis ... or maybe even life.

But its nice to have your thick-headed behavior documented so other people will know not to waste energy on you. Sad really because your observations on the story have some merit.

So ... F: does not understand the dynamics of literary analysis; fails to understand how group discussion works; and, frankly, zealot behavior alienates everyone.

We'll continue the discussion on 5cm/s but don't be surprised if people ignore you or dismiss you out of hand.

[Izayoi]

Oh dear leave the troll alone

Anyways, I finally got myself to finish watching part 2 and 3 of the movie. I really enjoy drama series with open endings. Although to my surprise, there was little plot to part 3 of the movie; not that it was bad. And the theme song "One more time, One more chance" really was a nice touch to it.