Claymore Chapter 105

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by Cyclone

Can some of you Raki admirers explain to me why you like Raki over Cid or Galk (who are no eye sores, and act like actual guys)? Galatea-sama has good taste sticking close to them instead of Raki.

-Who said anything about not liking either Cid or Galk? They're great in their own way as well. Who wouldn't appreciate Galk's honour-bound stubborness and Cid's sly, yet nonetheless loyal character? I am not going to talk about apperances (that belongs to the individual viewer), but I judge based on actions taken. And while both Galk and Cid did warm up to the Claymores, I hold Raki in high regard because he's the 1st human (since Clare) that looked past the Claymore stigmata and accepted them for who they were. I'm sorry but to me that is just too good a quality to not like, especially when such traits are rare amongst the general human populace (the bandits in Teresa's time, Raki's idiotic villagers and the Organization's manipulators).

[evil_kenshin]

Originally Posted by Cyclone

No. It's childish to expect that when people say: "Raki has grown into a popular character instead of the most hated thing in existance" (-Shiek927) for people who disagree to stay quiet. That would be tacitly agreeing to a statement to which I most certainly do not agree.
If you want me to say nothing, avoid saying things that require a response. Possibly you did not see this as a very provocative quote and it escaped your notice if you believe the same way Shiek927 does, but for me it certainly is an attention grabber.

For the same reasons that religion and politics are not discussed in polite society, is the same reason love for Raki should not be. There'd be no need for me to tone down anything if you guys didn't force a reply out of me - I don't want to ever mention him. I find he's best ignored. If I am forced to reply, you know what it's going to be, so make allowances to see just that when you make sweeping fawning statements over him publically (seeing that is every bit as repugnant for me, as seeing my diatribes towards him are for you).

As for the paedo stuff - I admit I mispoke - I should have said "condoning paedophilia" which is more along the lines of what I meant. Sorry about that - typing is an inperfect communication medium.

But you could try and put it a bit more nicer. While shiek may of generalised its not really that provocative for shiek to say that, since its true. A majority of posters no longer hate Raki if they did in the beginning.

Its hypocritical that you don't mind liking any other character its just that if Raki is mentioned you go in a frenzy of attacking both him and the poster who said it.

[[thousandmaster]]

Originally Posted by Cyclone

I find he's best ignored.

No offense but people are starting to think that about you. Your repetitive I hate Raki, blah blah blah. Just saying.

[revan5]

Can't we have more constructive "fights", like arguments over whether buxom Miria or sleek Galatea is the fairest of them all? (or perhaps the dark horse candidate, Renee )

I'm however having trouble relating religious/political talk with discussing Raki. I've found him annoying at times, it's true, but characters do not stay the same forever, much like people. I'm more than willing to give Raki his shot at redemption rather than dismiss such a possibility out of hand. His new self seems more than tolerable by my estimations.

The only thing that ever grates on me is when Shiek goes on about Priscilla being redeemable. I guess to me, once a person has murdered more than a certain number of people, they stop being "redeemable". Shiek thinks she can/will be redeemed, and I find this abhorrent because it means her thousands of victims will never get justice. At least with that disagreement there are two clear moral value systems involved. I'm having a tough time seeing that as the case when regarding Raki.

[haegar]

can you stop bullying cyclone for bullying raki? I find his "dinosauric" (quote, I didn't say that ) creativity in finding new ways of expressing his feelings on this character amusing and not offensive, however bad my mood might be without having had my morning coffee.

apart from that, I shall not accept Galatea beeing called "sleek" in comparison to "buxom" Miria. And Renee is kinda cute but does not even compare to the both of them. So can we have a fight about something constructive and important like which of the claymores is sexiest? Revan made a good call there ... otherwise somebody plz come up with spoilers... that I would also tolerate

[evil_kenshin]

Originally Posted by revan5

The only thing that ever grates on me is when Shiek goes on about Priscilla being redeemable. I guess to me, once a person has murdered more than a certain number of people, they stop being "redeemable".

Yagi may go that route based on what he did with Isley & Riful. Rather than have them go out as monsters they went out showing their human emotions (Isley with Priscilla + Raki & Riful about Duaf)

Yagi seems to have some redemption theme going so it may be the path he goes down.

[MalakTawus]

About Priscilla i hope she doesn't die now,but i REALLY hope she won't win this battle 'cause if she continues to be "the emotionless untouchable queen" 4ever she'll be a monodimensional character and quite boring.I want Claire to reinstall a bit of fear (and if not fear at least considering Claire a worthy opponent) in her causing maybe some sort of fight between her human self and her awakened self once she gets back her memories.
I hope that in the end (not now) Claire will give up on her vendetta and instead help Priscilla to return "human".

[alovelyburn]

Originally Posted by evil_kenshin

Yagi may go that route based on what he did with Isley & Riful. Rather than have them go out as monsters they went out showing their human emotions (Isley with Priscilla + Raki & Riful about Duaf)

Yagi seems to have some redemption theme going so it may be the path he goes down.

Honestly, I almost expect it. It seems to be a favorite of his.

The thing is, Priscilla herself isn't especially irredeemable as far as villains go. She's killed lots of people, yes, but Yagi has often gone out of his way to portray it as either done in relative innocence (Extra Scene 3 where she clearly doesn't quite "get" what's going on) or as a last resort after offering someone a chance to retreat instead. Even the big thing that so many people can't stop hating her for - the death of Teresa - was done on orders from someone else, in the genuine belief that Teresa was evil and while Priscilla herself was in the midst of a breakdown at best and already psychologically awakened at worst. (I'm not debating the whole "was it the claymore or the yoma thing, GDI. I'm just saying either way, she wasn't right in the head at the time). Not to mention all those years spent showing her as a moe waif with Isley and then with Raki. He's definitely laid the groundwork for it to be believable if he feels like going that route, and it's not as though she'd be the first villain to be redeemed in the history of storytelling (or even the one with the worst crimes attributed to her name), with or without dying afterward. It's one of the more common storytelling tropes, so there's nothing inconceivable about it, really.

I think, rather than there being something inherently irredeemable about her character, it's more often a case of many fans simply not wanting to see her redeemed because they're mad at her/can't or won't forgive her for one or another thing she's done, or because they're invested in the idea of Clare achieving her revenge. Basically because they wouldn't find it as satisfying.

As for me, I could go either way. If I were forced to lay down money on one or another outcome, based on Yagi's pattern so far I'd say "redemption + death" but considering that she's a much more important character than say, Riful or Isley (more important to the plot, not necessarily to any given fan), it's pretty up in the air. She could be used to counter his redemptive themes or to solidify them.

(Ps. Thanks for the link, Joe_fh! )

[irvinethearcher]

A propos raki,
where is gangsta ?

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

About Priscilla i hope she doesn't die now,but i REALLY hope she won't win this battle 'cause if she continues to be "the emotionless untouchable queen" 4ever she'll be a monodimensional character and quite boring.I want Claire to reinstall a bit of fear (and if not fear at least considering Claire a worthy opponent) in her causing maybe some sort of fight between her human self and her awakened self once she gets back her memories.
I hope that in the end (not now) Claire will give up on her vendetta and instead help Priscilla to return "human".

I don't know, even as a human priscilla was IMO somehow twisted because i think that she murdered theresa as a human being and not as an awakened.
I know others see this point in a different way but therefore for me the only place where priscilla should return to is the earth and the dust.

[Cyclone]

Originally Posted by evil_kenshin

But you could try and put it a bit more nicer. While shiek may of generalised its not really that provocative for shiek to say that, since its true. A majority of posters no longer hate Raki if they did in the beginning.

Its hypocritical that you don't mind liking any other character its just that if Raki is mentioned you go in a frenzy of attacking both him and the poster who said it.

*sigh*
You have a very strange definition of attack. The only person I meant to be negative about was Raki - and by my standards, not even that much. If anyone is attacking anyone, it's you attacking me for daring not to like that idiot.

Not only that, but you continue to persist this. To me, because I vehemently disagree with it, it was/is a provocative statement. To you it's not, because you agree with it. In all the posts I've read, I can't recall more than one or maybe two where someone claimed to change their opinion of him post time skip. What there is, I admit, a whole bunch more people now who post openly liking him (Have you no shame people?!? ), but few who changed their minds on him. The fact there's less "I hate Raki" posts can be for a number of reasons - the changing readership of the forums, as well as your own vociferous response to anyone who utters any words against him (honestly... neg rep for disliking the guy...).

Just because no one bothers to stand up to your views anymore, doesn't necessarily mean your views are mainstream. It could just as well simply mean that you made it a nuisanse enough opposing your thoughts to segrate yourselves into a like minded group.

This isn't just limited to Raki either. It applies to theories here too. For example, months and months ago, some people thought that Priscilla would join the ghosts. Well, I had my say, said what I thought would happen, and let people continue to aspouse their own theories. People discussed, and discussed, and discussed... fast forward to sometime in the last 2 months and someone recently posted something along the lines of: "as of a few months ago, nearly all of us thought Priscilla would join the ghosts". What's left to do than to roll your eyes? Sure a lot of the discussion was about that - but those who didn't believe it had their say early and let the matter go. From reading those chapter threads though, you'd swear the view was a consensus though from the sheer number of posts.

(Just to note - I'm not critisizing the theory [despite never having agreed with it] - I've been wrong on many theories myself and theorizing is most of the fun here. I'm simply using it to show how it can be made to appear there is a consensus when some of the regular posters repeat something often enough.)

Originally Posted by [thousandmaster]

No offense but people are starting to think that about you. Your repetitive I hate Raki, blah blah blah. Just saying.

Oh no! Please no! Anything but that! Whatever shall I do?!?
Honestly - if you don't like my posts, just ignore them. I'm not forcing you to read them, so feel free to do as you like. If the only thing you're noticing in my posts is Raki bashing, you're missing 95% of the content anyways.

[evil_kenshin]

Originally Posted by alovelyburn

As for me, I could go either way. If I were forced to lay down money on one or another outcome, based on Yagi's pattern so far I'd say "redemption + death" but considering that she's a much more important character than say, Riful or Isley (more important to the plot, not necessarily to any given fan), it's pretty up in the air. She could be used to counter his redemptive themes or to solidify them.

(Ps. Thanks for the link, Joe_fh! )

Agreed. Redemption doesn't suit her that much just the same i'm against the theory a few people have posted about her reverting back to being a claymore. Based on her own personality when she was a claymore + her own instability all that would happen is a) she re-awakens out of shock or b) she kills herself for all the lives she took (she had a black & white mentality on good and evil)

I'd personally prefer that the only form of redemption she has is something as she is dying rather than any actions in themselves (e.g suddenly fighting on the ghosts side).

@cyclone , you can tell your view is the minority based on group numbers you said it youself members of the "i hate raki" fanclub is 13 (most are members who have not shown up for along time ), on the other hand the raki followers fanclub has 31 , so a big difference. If u wish to pretend in your mind that everyone secretly hates Raki but my own opinions causes them to hide it then you are free to do so.

I was actually referring to comments I have read on the other forums such as OM & MF who have said that their view on Raki had changed after the timeskip.

[clarakiss~]

Originally Posted by irvinethearcher

where is gangsta ?

spanksta and i are best pals. even he says guud things about raki quite often in the irc. lol

[alovelyburn]

Originally Posted by evil_kenshin

Agreed. Redemption doesn't suit her that much just the same i'm against the theory a few people have posted about her reverting back to being a claymore. Based on her own personality when she was a claymore + her own instability all that would happen is a) she re-awakens out of shock or b) she kills herself for all the lives she took (she had a black & white mentality on good and evil)

Characterwise, I can see ways it could be done. If she got her previous morality back, for example, Yagi could have her devote herself to atonement instead of killing herself. Another classic story trope. But plotwise it just seems like that would really unbalance the series due to her ridiculous power.

Turning her back to her Claymore self might address the power problem (assuming she returned to the power level she had as a rookie Claymore instead of her ultimate potential or anything like it)... but even then, it seems like that would really be playing with fire considering that if she ever awakened again everyone would be in a really bad situation... again.

About the only way I can see her getting out of the series alive is if they somehow depower her. But who knows, Yagi's pretty twisty.

[evil_kenshin]

Originally Posted by alovelyburn

Characterwise, I can see ways it could be done. If she got her previous morality back, for example, Yagi could have her devote herself to atonement instead of killing herself. Another classic story trope. But plotwise it just seems like that would really unbalance the series due to her ridiculous power.

Turning her back to her Claymore self might address the power problem (assuming she returned to the power level she had as a rookie Claymore instead of her ultimate potential or anything like it)... but even then, it seems like that would really be playing with fire considering that if she ever awakened again everyone would be in a really bad situation... again.

About the only way I can see her getting out of the series alive is if they somehow depower her. But who knows, Yagi's pretty twisty.

It may be possible in the future that there is something like a stronger form of yoki suppression pills that permanently suppress an AB's hunger + ability to transform (though I have no idea what a normal yoki suppression pills effects on a AB would be)

It would feel odd though Priscilla suddenly being good and she would face alot of distrust from all claymores for what she is which may throw her on the bad side again (that if everything still thinks she is a villain that she may as well act like a villain)

The best form of atonement she could perform at her level of power would be to get sent over to the mainland & stop the war one way or another (kill the leaders of both sides + demand they cease fire or she will kill them all)

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by Cyclone

Honestly - if you don't like my posts, just ignore them. I'm not forcing you to read them, so feel free to do as you like. If the only thing you're noticing in my posts is Raki bashing, you're missing 95% of the content anyways.

-Small problem there; this a forum, a place where regardless of the intent, people are going to read what you posted. You may not be forcefully telling people to pay attention to you but chances are, someone is bound to read your posts and that still falls under your responsibility to appear as "civil" as possible. Asking people to ignore your posts after you've said your piece isn't going to fly because that's like saying you want your views to go unchallenged. As for the Raki bashing note the bolded below.

Originally Posted by Cyclone

*sigh*
You have a very strange definition of attack. The only person I meant to be negative about was Raki - and by my standards, not even that much. If anyone is attacking anyone, it's you attacking me for daring not to like that idiot.

-Just because someone who likes Raki is stating his opinion does not mean they are attacking you. Like I said, your posts are your responsibility, just like mine is here. The problem is that even when you are claiming innocense, you are still posting and promoting your view without keeping it in check like the bolded part.

Originally Posted by Cyclone

Not only that, but you continue to persist this. To me, because I vehemently disagree with it, it was/is a provocative statement. To you it's not, because you agree with it. In all the posts I've read, I can't recall more than one or maybe two where someone claimed to change their opinion of him post time skip. What there is, I admit, a whole bunch more people now who post openly liking him (Have you no shame people?!? ), but few who changed their minds on him. The fact there's less "I hate Raki" posts can be for a number of reasons - the changing readership of the forums, as well as your own vociferous response to anyone who utters any words against him (honestly... neg rep for disliking the guy...).

-Good ideas until we get to the bolded points. You're free to hate what you want about the series, that goes without question. But you seem to be unaware that the bolded points you add in cause you to lose credibility. Joking or not, addressing people (in the bolded manner) that have stated their stance will cause them to post something in opposition to what you have said. The post would be fine provided you didn't add otherwise unnecessary complaints (none want to hear about what your views are causing to your reputation on these forums).

Originally Posted by Cyclone

Just because no one bothers to stand up to your views anymore, doesn't necessarily mean your views are mainstream. It could just as well simply mean that you made it a nuisanse enough opposing your thoughts to segrate yourselves into a like minded group.

-The same could be said about the reverse too. Just because the majority seems to think favourably about a certain character, it doesn't mean that the majority is wrong in their thinking. Rather, if it is the majority that seems to have moved on from the days of old, they probably do not want to be constantly reminded of it. Its like an anti-Nazi protestor ever endlessly stating arguments against the Nazi regime despite it no longer existing and the world having recovered from the tragedies of WWII. Or to put it in a bit more relevant way: it would be like complaining that Rigald needs to suffer despite having been dead for a long time. The theory portion of your post I left out because these are the portions that are bound to get you opposition. Just my 2 cents.

[Shiek927]

What.The.Heck

I was not intending for this to go so far, nor was I intending for my post to be considered provocative; I was merely stating, what I believe, to be an accurate observation: that times have changed in the way people view the characters.

My post really wasn't even about Raki as much as it was about this point. A year ago for example, If I said that I liked Clarice, people would have looked at me with skepticism, uninterest, and laughter. Now, people either agree with me, or they respect my opinion regardless.

That's the change: people are more into and appreciative of more characters, and people are not so " " about other people liking characters that they themselves may not like, which I think is the best change.

All I said was, that he has grown into a popular character which is undeniable; I never said that he has grown into everyone's favorite character. Both of you, Cyclone and Kenshin, are seemingly failing to read my post as I intended and are just using it as an excuse to have a Pro/Anti-Raki war with eachother. You both can live or dislike whatever characters you want, but please don't use my post as an excuse if you're missing my point.

That said; I'm promptly staying out of it, though I will use what Cyclone said about his dislike for Claire/Raki because the older-woman/younger-boy thing is questionable to him, to post my own views on the matter here, since it's different(http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=2601). I personally believe it's one of my best posts I've made on the website, so I like posting it every now and then.

I will say this though: Cyclone, don't say something like "I don't care if people read my posts" because that's just downright silly and a lie. I can't believe you like spending your time here, collecting and posting your thoughts consistantly, and not caring if people even what you say a second look.

As for Priscilla, while Raciella joining the Ghosts has basically faded away, it's still possible she will have an alliance with the Ghosts, the same way it's possible she may de-power into a half-awakened. I've already gone into several views and theories on her future in this thread, but for the most part, I've basically made it clear that I am a fan of hers and don't want her to die, so my preferred theories are the ones that doesn't end in her death.

I believe the most likely route that will be taken is one that I said before which is similar to the anime: that Claire will "defeat" Priscilla, but will not go in for the kill for whatever reason. I don't think it's possible, nor am I crazy for it, but I still think it's what will probably end up happening so fans will feel some appease if Claire beats Priscilla in combat.

[haegar]

since changing opinions were mentioned I shall come out of hiding and add to the mix of emotions and opinions that while I used to dislike Raki a lot, since the timeskip he has in the very least become a much more interesting character. I shall wait on calling him likeable till I see what the Org turns him into

I should also like to add that it is my feeling that some people take this topic way to personal. I'll leave it to you to feel adressed or not

[Shiek927]

I should also like to add that it is my feeling that some people take this topic way to personal. I'll leave it to you to feel adressed or not

What can I say, Raki has that effect on people .

Why, I don't know, but the kid's like a nuclear bomb that's waiting to go off .

[evil_kenshin]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

I believe the most likely route that will be taken is one that I said before which is similar to the anime: that Claire will "defeat" Priscilla, but will not go in for the kill for whatever reason. I don't think it's possible, nor am I crazy for it, but I still think it's what will probably end up happening so fans will feel some appease if Claire beats Priscilla in combat.

sorry shiek didn't mean to hijack your post if thats how you took it

Unless im mistaken , Priscilla died in the video game which may count as more "cannon" if thats the term (tried to check up on it but there is no faq in english ), but in the game though when she transforms into her pure yoki form all her sense of self disappears (perhaps an early hint of the destroyer? or just a coincidence).

I found it interesting that the video game did not follow the same idea as the anime & may technically be more official since im not sure if yagi had more direct involvement in the video game than the anime (i know he didn't have to much to do with the anime creation)

so you could be right, a similar ending to the anime or possibly more closer to the video game (or it may go on a totally different angle all together) but I don't want claymore finishing any time soon

[Shiek927]

Roflmao, Kenshin, the game was an even bigger joke then the anime. You just can't make Claymore into a side-scroller. Their's no way the game could ever concievably be considered canon; I haven't seen any evidence that Yagi was involved because, if he was, he would make the game follow the manga, not deviant even more then the anime.

The game was just a cash-in for the fans, plain and simple.

Yes, that's partly why I dislike any thoughts of Priscilla dying; because her death would be the final straw in Claymore's ending. If she ever does die, she needs to die right when the manga is basically ending for it to even feel good. She is one of the final bastions that has been around since the very beginning.

Don't worry