Kanon - 2006 - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[Meophist]

Mai's arc is a bit too confusing to me. To be truthful, I didn't really like it too much. Maybe it's just how KyoAni did it(I honestly don't remember how Toei did it), but everything seemed to have been just squished together at the end. Mai's actions simply became more and more incomprehensible to me as her arc went on. I also don't feel as if there's a real conclusion to the arc yet; maybe it'll be presented in the next episode though.

I'm wondering how they're going to incorperate Mai into future episodes now.

[FatPianoBoy]

Two questions, an observation and a personal reaction:

Was that Ayu's voice Mai heard just before she met Yuuichi in the field? Sure sounded like it.
Why'd she stab herself? Was that her way of fully embracing her gift, or did the survivor's guilt finally become too much for her?
Nayuki knows everything. Maybe she gets it from her mother.
Mai making a zoo for her mother made me cry. Not misty-eyed, not choked-up; I had tears running down my cheeks. And I am not ashamed, because that whole thing really was that moving. KyoAni gets a week's supply of internets.

[blitz1/2]

I am going to burn a DVD with episode and force my classmates to watch this! (English class?)

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

Why'd she stab herself? Was that her way of fully embracing her gift, or did the survivor's guilt finally become too much for her?

i duno about the first question but ill try answering the 2nd one ~
i think that she choose death as a way to resolve things...basically she even said so herself that she had "been relying on the sword in order to live up to this day" and now that yuuichi is telling her to put it down she feels that her duty is done...if she isnt allowed to fight then there isnt a point to her existence...and rather than getting in the way of yuuichi's and sayuri's life she'd rather disappear...and thinking back she had no regrets doing it as she already owed yuuichi for so much already...im trying to hold back the tears watching that part a second time ;_;

[panzerfan]

as for question 1, Nanoha(no!), Michiru(nah...), Mai's spirit was calling Mai I think.

[Vexx]

Once defeating the demons... she had no further purpose (in her mind) and a lot of pain built up over the years.... (imo) ... why that overwhelmed the connective bonds she had created with the present day Yuuichi and Sayuri, I'm not clear on, but rationality drowning emotion can do things to you after stifling it for years.

[New/Old]

Originally Posted by Meophist

Mai's arc is a bit too confusing to me. To be truthful, I didn't really like it too much. Maybe it's just how KyoAni did it(I honestly don't remember how Toei did it), but everything seemed to have been just squished together at the end. Mai's actions simply became more and more incomprehensible to me as her arc went on. I also don't feel as if there's a real conclusion to the arc yet; maybe it'll be presented in the next episode though.

I'm wondering how they're going to incorperate Mai into future episodes now.

Ah. Ask me what questions you have on Mai's actions. I might be of some help. At least I hope so... Heh heh.

[MakubeX2]

So who will be collecting the R2-JP DVDs now ?

Face it, this series will never get a state side release. (In a very long while at least) So the only thing you can contend with are the R2-JPs.

For me, I had the intention of getting the R2-JP DVD right from the start. But Ep 15 just cemented my thought for getting the Blu-Ray releases even just to watch the swordfights in it's HD glory.

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by MakubeX2

Face it, this series will never get a state side release. (In a very long while at least) So the only thing you can contend with are the R2-JPs.

I dunno... it didn't get picked up in '02, but that was way back in the day before companies paid much attention to fansub interests. I'd tend to agree, but I've decided that if Azumanga Daioh can get licensed, nothing is guaranteed to shoo away licensors.

[MakubeX2]

I concur that there might be a chance that Kanon might get license.

But taking account that AIR didn't get pick up last year nor the year before and that Kanon is a huge icon in Japan since '99 (The Japanese apparently ask for a million US dollar from Hirameki just for the license to get the game an official English translation ), the chance that I speaks of gets smaller......

[Sorrow-K]

Wow, that really made the Toei's 2002 efforts with Mai's arc look like a giant copout. Looking back, that was little more than a series of events. This was a story about an actual character. It really exemplifies the power of giving characters a background, it makes the characters more rounded, easier to sympathize with, etc, etc, and it even nicely filled in all the plotholes left in the 2002 version.

But, I too think there were pacing issues. Obviously they were set on having just four episodes for Mai's arc, but I felt it needed an epilogue, for one thing, to stress what impact the events have made on the characters, and many of the major plot points, particular during and after the background scene, just swept by.

On a slightly different note, I find it amusing that Tamura's young Mai sounds so much like her Furude Rika. I think I'd have died if she said "niipah", though.

Outstanding episode. I've totally changed my mind on the Mai arc, it is one of the better arcs in Kanon. It just needed to be told properly, which, it seems, takes Kyoto Animation to do so.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

I dunno... it didn't get picked up in '02, but that was way back in the day before companies paid much attention to fansub interests. I'd tend to agree, but I've decided that if Azumanga Daioh can get licensed, nothing is guaranteed to shoo away licensors.

I think the field is shifting.... Having SHnY get licensed was a big step (since it does have a romance element to it) and KyoAni involved ... if I had to pick a dambuster it would be Kanon 2006. I'm still fairly amazed that AzuDa and IchigoMarshmallow got licensed. And I'm still searching for bits of my jawbone from the licensing of Tsukuyomi Moon Phase and PaniPoni Dash.

edit: I strongly suspect we'll get an epilog for Mai and perhaps even some followup.

Spoiler:

If nothing else, there's a graduation gift sequence (wait.. was that in the game?) and the two young ladies stay in contact. So I suspect Yuuichi (unlike the usual lead if this were a harem series) will check up on his friends.

[FatPianoBoy]

Originally Posted by MakubeX2

(The Japanese apparently ask for a million US dollar from Hirameki just for the license to get the game an official English translation ), the chance that I speaks of gets smaller......

Wha-wha-what?
The game, while it may be relatively popular here if imported, will not gain the public notoriety it has in Japan. The dating sim market is very small here, and frankly I wouldn't buy it myself unless they released the all-age version (which may cut out a large part of the receptive audience here). If it sold more than 10,000 copies I'd be shocked. There's just no way a North American distributor could hope to turn a profit with all this

@Vexx: Whoa, I completely forgot about PPD. I restate my statement: If Pani Poni Dash can get licensed, anything is fair game. And yes, if Kanon '06 does get picked up, I may even have to review my cynicism towards the American entertainment industry.

[IRJustman]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

But, I too think there were pacing issues. Obviously they were set on having just four episodes for Mai's arc, but I felt it needed an epilogue, for one thing, to stress what impact the events have made on the characters, and many of the major plot points, particular during and after the background scene, just swept by.

Even though I explained what I saw earlier, I tend to agree. The rest of the story could have used a little more fleshing out, though we might get something in ep 16 much like we did in 11 after Makoto's story.

However, Makoto's epilogue was more of a postscript to the story because Makoto had gone away. If anything happens in the next episode, I somehow suspect we'll see a bit more than a short camera shot or two like we got in ep 11.

Outstanding episode. I've totally changed my mind on the Mai arc, it is one of the better arcs in Kanon. It just needed to be told properly, which, it seems, takes Kyoto Animation to do so.

Agreed. They did the storytelling a lot better than ToeiAni did. After watching the events in ep 15, I finally understand why Yuuchi said that there were never any demons in the first place and that she was the one giving rise to them. I think I'll watch it again tonight because working it as a fansubber can take you away from the more emotional impact the story can have.

Speaking of large impacts, I'll be showing several eps of Kanon 2006, including ep 10, which caps Makoto's arc, at the Fresno Art Museum on a very large screen (11x20 feet) with a nice sound system, so the impact will be a lot bigger. I'm going to try to show Mai's next month. If any of you are in the Fresno or surrounding areas in the California Central Valley, come on down!

--Ian.

[Devil Doll]

Mai killing herself and still ending up unharmed left me scratching my head. So the sword was a metaphorical device after all? Then why had all the destructions by the demons gone this time while they did real damage every time before?

8/10 this time - perfect episode with two points deduction for the ending. Looks like they had to pay back the loan they borrowed from episode 14, as for Sayuri's role in this part. Getting Mai's complete story this time was really great for me, and the zoo scene touched my heart.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

Wha-wha-what?
The game, while it may be relatively popular here if imported, will not gain the public notoriety it has in Japan. The dating sim market is very small here, and frankly I wouldn't buy it myself unless they released the all-age version (which may cut out a large part of the receptive audience here). If it sold more than 10,000 copies I'd be shocked. There's just no way a North American distributor could hope to turn a profit with all this
.

That price is just Key's diplomatic way of saying "We are TOTALLY not interested in doing business overseas. We know our market and we're comfortable in it. Go Away (nicely)."
Why they have that attitude I'm unclear on... it may be as simple as a dismissive "this software is for our local audience. it couldn't possibly have meaning out in gaijin-land" by the one old guy who would decide (yes, I've seen exactly that sort of attitude in real life).

Fortunately, it'll be KyoAni that handles any overseas distribution of the anime.

[Sorrow-K]

Originally Posted by Devil Doll

Mai killing herself and still ending up unharmed left me scratching my head. So the sword was a metaphorical device after all? Then why had all the destructions by the demons gone this time while they did real damage every time before?

8/10 this time - perfect episode with two points deduction for the ending. Looks like they had to pay back the loan they borrowed from episode 14, as for Sayuri's role in this part. Getting Mai's complete story this time was really great for me, and the zoo scene touched my heart.

She was healed by her own power, which appears to have its own consciousness. And I forgot to mention the zoo scene, which I thought was one of the highlights of the episode. I love those touching gestures like that and this one really had a profound statement on the relationship between Mai and her mother.

[Meophist]

It's not that the sword didn't cause any harm, but Mai's power healed her.

[Devil Doll]

So the demon attacking Sayuri literally flooded the bath with blood and Mai committing seppuku worked without a single drop of that red liquid? Come on, I mean, really...

Spoiler for comparison between 2k2 and 2k6 version of that episode:

First of all: Of course the presentation of Mai's story was marvellous and filled a huge gap that 2k2 had left open. That's what I'd have given 10 points for if I were able to like that episode's ending.

My highlight sure was the bunny zoo - the one moment of this episode when I actually held my breath. The battle obviously had less impact on me than it must have had on first-time watchers as I knew Mai's stunt down the roof already (plus the surprise was spoiled by Mai's attack on the staircase). The use of the shiritori at this point in 2k2 was something I loved back then, it got wasted in the 2k6 version for the introduction into Sayuri's story.

In 2k6 Mai was saved by "hope" and cured her wound using her magical ability, in 2k2 Mai was saved by finding her hope of a lifelong friend in the person of Sayuri who prevented her suicide attempt; of these two I prefer the 2k2 ending for providing the same emotional impact as the 2k6 version without relying on the fantasy element so much.

And the amount of Sayuri story we've seen in 2k6 (most notably with Sayuri telling Yuuichi in the cafe "I didn't save Mai") called even more for the 2k2 ending IMHO. This is the second time Sayuri fails to do something for Mai compared to 2k2 (the first time having been Kitagawa's stunt where in 2k2 Sayuri had to sacrifice herself to Kuze's organisation); up to episode 15 Sayuri remains significantly underused as for weaving their stories together. Sayuri was my second favourite character in 2k2 - she's just an also-ran in 2k6, almost like Mishio. Sayuri saving Mai like she did in 2k2 would have been the perfect link between their arcs; understanding that is one of the reasons why I love 2k2. Plus ending an arc where Yuuichi doesn't have to be the significant person for once while he has to be that for all other arcs.

Also, that suicide threat of Mai had been used in 2k6 episode 14 already, so its surprise effect was diluted this time (that's what I mean by "paying back the debt from episode 14"); what's more, finding out that Mai wasn't in lethal danger because her powers can always rewrite history is disappointing for me.
This episode showed so much drama only to tell us there was nothing to be afraid of in the end... jeez. In 2k2 (where Mai was so much less aware of her powers) her sword would have been a lot more lethal!

One more point: Aren't we getting too many suicide attempts this time? I count four so far: One by Sayuri (implied by showing her wrist, and explored in more detail in the game), two by Mai (episodes 14 and 15), and one to be told during the forthcoming episodes (we've seen that knife in episode 2 already)? And not a single one of them succeeding? You can use a concept only so many times until it loses its credibility.

One more thing is confusing me: What about the number of demons? Mai told us it were five demons, and we were able to count them every time Mai defeated one. Still there was one extra demon in the end. Where does that (wrong) number come from?

Um... if Mai is able to make real whatever she wishes for, she could now wish for Yuuichi staying at her side forever - game over, Kanon 2006 ends here and now! Wait... why didn't she wish for that 7 years ago? Kanon 2006 would never have happened then...

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy

And yes, if Kanon '06 does get picked up, I may even have to review my cynicism towards the American entertainment industry.

Don't blame the industry; blame the public. They only license what they can make a profit on, after all...

I dream of a world in which Kanon and AIR are brought to region 1 and outsell Cowboy Bebop and Evangelion put together. Unfortunately, even if the rumors about KEY anime being outrageously expensive to license are false, they have to overcome (relative) lack of interest in the genre among North American DVD buyers.

One of the things I like about Japanese anime classification (shounen/shoujo/seinen etc) is that you can have romance or slice-of-life stuff aimed at either men or women (and of course it's okay for the opposite gender to like those shows as well; it's just a convenient way to categorize things). Unfortunately, US pop culture operates under the assumption that women are only interested in romance and heartwarming scenarios, and men are only interested in fanservice and explosions. It's ridiculously ironic, but if Kanon and/or AIR were licensed, the company that got them would almost have to market them toward females in order to succeed. I hope that "casual" male fans in the US gradually become more interested in stories of this nature.

Between Kanon and AIR, I think AIR has a slightly better chance of getting licensed: it's shorter, and its eroge origins are less obvious (whereas in Kanon, much as I love it, a lot of stuff would leave me skeptical if I didn't know it was based on an eroge and mentally made allowances for that). But chances are that neither will get licensed, ever, unless anime really takes off in the US.

Originally Posted by Vexx

Fortunately, it'll be KyoAni that handles any overseas distribution of the anime.

Will it? KyoAni animated Haruhi Suzumiya, but Kadokawa (the JP branch) was the company that decided to release it in the US. I can't profess to know much about how licensing works, but I think it's rather more complex than that.

As for episode 15, I was surprised at how well everything came together. For me, the most powerful moment was when

Spoiler:

Mai cries over the dead bird.

It's a stunning example of what anime can accomplish--both in terms of conveying high-concept information and evoking strong emotions--without using words. Few studios other than KyoAni are capable of wielding pure visuals with such keen effect.