Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

If not, there will be no B movies and Oscar-worthy movies in the world today.

Those two are absolutely subjective. The Oscars in particular have a preference towards a certain style and time period. That's why we have things like Oscar season (which starts around November) and Oscar bait. And their decisions are influenced by things beyond their already subjective view in quality.

While I can agree that there are certain factors that are a consensus, even a consensus is kinda subjective... The Oscars are just bad examples of this.

For the record, most awards are. Ever hear of Neil Gaiman's A Midsummer Night's Dream and his World Fantasy Award?

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Quality characters who are (objectively) well-written do exist along with quality stories. If not, there will be no B movies and Oscar-worthy movies in the world today. What I’m saying is that Newtype polling is leaning more on fan-favorites than quality (just like MTV Movie Awards). I’m not saying quality is totally ignored, but they indeed took a backseat when it comes to this kind of polling.

This doesn’t mean I’m complaining about Newtype poll for doing exactly what it's meant to do. I consider it fun in its own way, but sometimes, it can be painful too when some of the “champions” get their places only due to the sheer power of the vocal fans. I still remember how hard I shook my head when Twilight (a movie so lacking in quality) won so many categories in MTV Movie Awards beating the likes of The Dark Knight and many other well-made movies. That’s the power of fan-favorites for you .

That's why I feel that the Anime Grand Prix awards (that Gundam Seed and Destiny won) aren't any different from the People's Choice Awards.

Note the keyphrase, "Most Popular", in their awards, and popularity != quality.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Quality characters who are (objectively) well-written do exist along with quality stories. If not, there will be no B movies and Oscar-worthy movies in the world today.

At the end of the day, characters and stories are made for the purpose of entertainment, and their quality are therefore ultimately judged subjectively. Oscar-worthy just means that it has qualities that the Oscar committee likes. It doesn't mean that movies that are not mentioned in the same sentence as Oscar, let alone actually be nominated for one of the awards, cannot be good.

I still remember how hard I shook my head when Twilight (a movie so lacking in quality) won so many categories in MTV Movie Awards beating the likes of The Dark Knight and many other well-made movies. That’s the power of fan-favorites for you .

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

That's why I feel that the Anime Grand Prix awards (that Gundam Seed and Destiny won) aren't any different from the People's Choice Awards.

Note the keyphrase, "Most Popular", in their awards, and popularity != quality.

Popular/fan-favorites means that the object of that popularity possesses qualities that are favored by the mainstream (or at least, select demographic).

[CBredbeard]

Originally Posted by monster

Popular/fan-favorites means that the object of that popularity possesses qualities that are favored by the mainstream (or at least, select demographic).

Why did people pick Aladdin over Alibaba is my question. It makes no sense to me. Alibaba is funnier. Alibaba is more righteous. He's smarter than Aladdin, but at the same time Alibaba actually has faults and circumstances that make him a compelling character.

Yet it's Aladdin that people like? Aladdin who is practically an observer of the world around him until he decides to stick his nose into other people's business, because he feels like it? And then walks away from the fallout without smudge on his clothes?

Two characters within the same series and I think the choice should be clear between them, but the one I would choose doesn't even rank?

[monster]

Since this is not the thread to discuss Aladdin, I'll just add this little qualification:

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

faults and circumstances that make him a compelling character (... to you).

Hopefully that can help answer your question.

[Mad Pierrot]

Originally Posted by monster

Since this is not the thread to discuss Aladdin, I'll just add this little qualification: Hopefully that can help answer your question.

I would comment about wondering why certain people like. Seeing a show from another point of view but maybe this also helps.

http://pbskids.org/arthur/games/fact...sopinions.html

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

Those two are absolutely subjective. The Oscars in particular have a preference towards a certain style and time period. That's why we have things like Oscar season (which starts around November) and Oscar bait. And their decisions are influenced by things beyond their already subjective view in quality.

While I can agree that there are certain factors that are a consensus, even a consensus is kinda subjective... The Oscars are just bad examples of this.

For the record, most awards are. Ever hear of Neil Gaiman's A Midsummer Night's Dream and his World Fantasy Award?

Note that when I mentioned "Oscar-worthy" movies, I just meant a group of movie with well-written characters & stories. I've never put Oscar (or any other Awards) on a pedestal nor I always agree with their choices for the winners, but at least I can be certain of one thing: the movies which made it to the nomination are actually well-written compared to direct-to-video B movies out there. That's why I mentioned the two extremes between "Oscar-worthy movies" and "B movies", to prove that different quality in writing do exist. For example, you gotta be really ignorant to lump the writing in Heat & The Godfather on the same level with the DTV movies starring JCVD & Steven Seagal in the last five years just because of "people have different taste".

Originally Posted by monster

At the end of the day, characters and stories are made for the purpose of entertainment, and their quality are therefore ultimately judged subjectively. Oscar-worthy just means that it has qualities that the Oscar committee likes. It doesn't mean that movies that are not mentioned in the same sentence as Oscar, let alone actually be nominated for one of the awards, cannot be good.

See my reply to Deadpool above.

Originally Posted by monster

Popular/fan-favorites means that the object of that popularity possesses qualities that are favored by the mainstream (or at least, select demographic).

Now we have to agree to disagree. I think fan-favorite is different from actual quality. A fan-favorite movie can still have actual quality (see The Dark Knight), but fan-favorite itself doesn't equal actual quality (see Twilight).

PS: Note that I was talking solely about writing here (especially about characters that this discussion is stem from). I don't even touch on execution, which also a major factor in terms of quality movie.

[Fireminer]

No, I don't believe that fan-favorite also 100% ensures that the artistic product has great quality. For example, you see that various musical competitions have audiances vote by SMS, but they still retain a board of judges, right? Not all of the audiances possess enough knowledge and thinking to decide what is really great, but usually let themself got swooped by the crowd. "Masses Effect", in short. Just see a large number of street riots.

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by CBredbeard

Why did people pick Aladdin over Alibaba is my question. It makes no sense to me. Alibaba is funnier. Alibaba is more righteous. He's smarter than Aladdin, but at the same time Alibaba actually has faults and circumstances that make him a compelling character.

Yet it's Aladdin that people like? Aladdin who is practically an observer of the world around him until he decides to stick his nose into other people's business, because he feels like it? And then walks away from the fallout without smudge on his clothes?

Two characters within the same series and I think the choice should be clear between them, but the one I would choose doesn't even rank?

You guys never cease to amaze me as to what you can bring into a Gundam forum

As for the bolded part.....eh nah he sorta got sucked into things (unless you are referring to the original novels which I have no experience with)

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Note that when I mentioned "Oscar-worthy" movies, I just meant a group of movie with well-written characters & stories.

I know what you MEANT. What I'm saying is that "Oscar-worthy" is an entirely subjective concept. There is nothing inherently better about an Oscar-worthy movie and one that was never even nominated.

Also the concept of B-list has nothing to do with quality. B-movies have smaller budgets. That ALSO tends to make them worse, but not necessarily.

I get what you're TRYING to say, I'm just pointing out that the examples you used do NOT support your argument at all. For example, you mentioned Heat, a movie that ISN'T Oscar worthy: It never even got nominated.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Note that when I mentioned "Oscar-worthy" movies, I just meant a group of movie with well-written characters & stories. I've never put Oscar (or any other Awards) on a pedestal nor I always agree with their choices for the winners, but at least I can be certain of one thing: the movies which made it to the nomination are actually well-written compared to direct-to-video B movies out there. That's why I mentioned the two extremes between "Oscar-worthy movies" and "B movies", to prove that different quality in writing do exist. For example, you gotta be really ignorant to lump the writing in Heat & The Godfather on the same level with the DTV movies starring JCVD & Steven Seagal in the last five years just because of "people have different taste".

See my reply to Deadpool above.

Different qualities in writing do exist, but one must also consider appropriateness to the subject matter and intended audience. And for the people who vote for the MTV movie awards during whatever year that was, Twilight simply appealed more to them than the Dark Knight. That appeal is part of Twilight's quality.

Now we have to agree to disagree. I think fan-favorite is different from actual quality. A fan-favorite movie can still have actual quality (see The Dark Knight), but fan-favorite itself doesn't equal actual quality (see Twilight).

PS: Note that I was talking solely about writing here (especially about characters that this discussion is stem from). I don't even touch on execution, which also a major factor in terms of quality movie.

What is the point a story if not to engage the audience? Fan favorites are the way they are because they are able to do that for a significant part of their audience.

But my point is that it is subjective, which is why it's ok for you not to like a fan favorite. That doesn't mean it doesn't have quality. It just means that the quality it possesses is not the kind that appeals to you.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

I know what you MEANT. What I'm saying is that "Oscar-worthy" is an entirely subjective concept. There is nothing inherently better about an Oscar-worthy movie and one that was never even nominated.

"Oscar-worthy" is just a manner of speaking, just a general measuring stick. If it suits you better, you can replace it with "well-written movies". Also, I did mentioned Heat which was never got nominated didn't I?

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

Also the concept of B-list has nothing to do with quality. B-movies have smaller budgets. That ALSO tends to make them worse, but not necessarily.

The same case with "Oscar-worthy". It's just my way of saying "a bunch of poorly written movies". And some of the finest examples can be found in those DTV movies.

Originally Posted by Deadpool2000

I get what you're TRYING to say, I'm just pointing out that the examples you used do NOT support your argument at all. For example, you mentioned Heat, a movie that ISN'T Oscar worthy: It never even got nominated.

How can my examples not support my argument? I give solid comparison between the well-written The Godfather with JCVD & Seagal's DTV movies (take one for example: Seagal’s atrocious Against the Dark). You gotta be truly ignorant if you put the script-writing of those two movies on the same level of quality and said one is only better due to people’s opinions.

Also, like I said previously, I mentioned Heat just to prove you that I don’t put Oscar on a pedestal and the fact that I know other well-written movies which aren’t even Oscar nominations.

Originally Posted by monster

What is the point a story if not to engage the audience? Fan favorites are the way they are because they are able to do that for a significant part of their audience.

There are 1001 ways for a movie (or any visual media) to engage audience without a good story (see Bayformers). Bayformers has fans that adore the actions and ‘splosions, but even many of those fans admit that the plot/story sucks. Twilight is the same, just replace "‘splosions" with "pretty boys" and "shipping". Those "appeals" have nothing to do with quality-writing which is my point from the start.

[Gundamx]

Twilight is good movie for it's target audience = teenager female
most male = what the heck?

just like DBZ is good anime for it's target audience = teen male
most female = what the heck?


most male don't like Shoujo manga/anime
yes, Twilight same as Shoujo while Dark Night same as Shounen

so it's normal to like Dark Night and hate Twilight

[monster]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

There are 1001 ways for a movie (or any visual media) to engage audience without a good story (see Bayformers). Bayformers has fans that adore the actions and ‘splosions, but even many of those fans admit that the plot/story sucks. Twilight is the same, just replace "‘splosions" with "pretty boys" and "shipping". Those "appeals" have nothing to do with quality-writing which is my point from the start.

It's about the quality as a whole, including the writing. Otherwise, any show with "‘splosions" and "pretty boys" and "shipping" could be as popular. And yet, not every show is like that.

You trying to single out "writing" as a distinct quality separate from everything else when talking about the characters doesn't really work. It's about every part of the show coming together to make the characters who/what they are. Otherwise, Shinn is just a black-haired Kira, but he is not Kira because the show as a whole, including the writing, differentiates him from Kira.

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

"Oscar-worthy" is just a manner of speaking, just a general measuring stick. If it suits you better, you can replace it with "well-written movies". Also, I did mentioned Heat which was never got nominated didn't I?

The same case with "Oscar-worthy". It's just my way of saying "a bunch of poorly written movies". And some of the finest examples can be found in those DTV movies.

How can my examples not support my argument? I give solid comparison between the well-written The Godfather with JCVD & Seagal's DTV movies (take one for example: Seagal’s atrocious Against the Dark). You gotta be truly ignorant if you put the script-writing of those two movies on the same level of quality and said one is only better due to people’s opinions.

Also, like I said previously, I mentioned Heat just to prove you that I don’t put Oscar on a pedestal and the fact that I know other well-written movies which aren’t even Oscar nominations.

There are 1001 ways for a movie (or any visual media) to engage audience without a good story (see Bayformers). Bayformers has fans that adore the actions and ‘splosions, but even many of those fans admit that the plot/story sucks. Twilight is the same, just replace "‘splosions" with "pretty boys" and "shipping". Those "appeals" have nothing to do with quality-writing which is my point from the start.

That's what I've been saying all along.

Both Seed and Destiny are critic-proof.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

That's what I've been saying all along.

Both Seed and Destiny are critic-proof.

And again I ask you, did the majority of professional critics dislike SEED and Destiny?

[Deadpool2000]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

"Oscar-worthy" is just a manner of speaking, just a general measuring stick. If it suits you better, you can replace it with "well-written movies". Also, I did mentioned Heat which was never got nominated didn't I?

So what is the OBJECTIVE metric you use to define an Oscar-worthy movie?

I mean, if you say Heat is Oscar-worthy and people who ACTUALLY give out the Oscars don't nominate it... Wouldn't that mean they disagree? How is that not subjective?

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

The same case with "Oscar-worthy". It's just my way of saying "a bunch of poorly written movies". And some of the finest examples can be found in those DTV movies.

So you're taking a term that means "cheap" and re-interpreting it to mean "bad" and then calling it an OBJECTIVE definition?

What I'm trying to show is that the terms "B-movie" and "Oscar-worthy" are both SUBJECTIVE definitions. They are specially silly ones because most Oscars aren't given for story quality (and none for character quality).

Originally Posted by Washu-Chan

Both Seed and Destiny are critic-proof.

Actually, they both received critical acclaim... Acclaimed Flop would actually be closer to the truth, but it made money so doesn't fit that either...

I don't think TVTropes has a term for critically acclaimed, successful shows with a small, vocal online hate crowd... They probably should though.

[Mad Pierrot]

Originally Posted by monster

And again I ask you, did the majority of professional critics dislike SEED and Destiny?

I remember reading an ANN review about how they liked Kira's role in the finale OVA, Durandal being explored far more while Shinn was kind of redeemed in the end. Criticism involved adding little new material. I don't often check reviews but a guy said they gave it quite a good score. Same with a review from Mania.com.

[monster]

Is that just for Final Plus?

[Mad Pierrot]

Originally Posted by monster

Is that just for Final Plus?

Just one example. I also sometimes check UK Anime Network and their response was quite similar to the entire series. The most common criticism I find is a slow pacing and Shinn not being best received MC from the very beginning with Meer also receiving similar comments