Learning Japanese

[Autumn Demon]

reading like that ^(not reading every letter) often leads to misreading words, which can change the meaning of an entire sentence at times.

[Vexx]

Change "often" to "occasionally" and I might agree with that but mostly for intermediate readers. But studies show that advanced readers 'grok' the entire word pattern and adjust almost instantly if there's a context quandary. If the reading material is too short though, there is more likelihood of contextual error:
(e.g. Phone text --> "Bear with me" .... if one is camping then O.o)

In college, I've been clocked at over a 1000 english words a minute reading for comprehension and recall under test conditions. Some people read for retention much faster than that.
Someone reading purely phonetically usually tops out at less than half of that.
I'd *like* to be able to achieve something near the equivalent for that with Japanese but that's probably years away. Right now, I read about like a first grader on a good day with lots of reference to the kanji and language dictionaries.

[iamtetsuo]

Hooray I just started my first Japanese class this week. I'm finding that it's fairly easy to pick up so far. We'll see how it goes once I get to more advanced areas...

OK off to go practice writing hiragana.

[raikage]

Originally Posted by Jaden

As such I can't be arsed to learn a difficult language just to be able to delve deeper into otakudom...

Japanese isn't Klingon. It does have real-world applications.

But yeah, I wouldn't encourage anyone to learn it simply because they like them funny Japanese cartoons and comics.

[iamtetsuo]

Originally Posted by raikage

Japanese isn't Klingon. It does have real-world applications.

But yeah, I wouldn't encourage anyone to learn it simply because they like them funny Japanese cartoons and comics.

Hehe it's pretty easy to pick out the people in class who are simply there because they "like them funny Japanese cartoons." Decked out in nerdy t-shirts sitting in back talking about Warhammer 40K...

[Irwin1138]

@iamtetsuo:
Hey, dude, what about Warhammer 40k is bad? I personally like it :P
Anyway, I learn Japanese just because I like it, and I want to be able to watch anime and read manga on its primary language, and not through the prism of translation. Isnt it a good reason to learn Japanese?

[Diaboso]

Originally Posted by Irwin1138

@iamtetsuo:
Hey, dude, what about Warhammer 40k is bad? I personally like it :P
Anyway, I learn Japanese just because I like it, and I want to be able to watch anime and read manga on its primary language, and not through the prism of translation. Isnt it a good reason to learn Japanese?

yeah @iamtetsuo: whats wrong about warhammer 40k. I'm a huge fan. chaos rules

any way I still would like to learn Japanies so I could understand some of the Op. end songs better or just any Japanies song

[Irwin1138]

@Diaboso:
Orks! Orks! Orks!

Japanese is actually worth of learning even without any reason - this is very interesting topic btw.

[iamtetsuo]

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with WH40K, just that it's pretty easy to spot who's in the class simply for "teh animes."

[Vexx]

That's fine for a hook... but interest in a foreign language *should* include interest in all aspects of the culture since language and culture are so intertwined.

[deathreape98]

I finally stopped being lazy and started actually studying Japanese, and im finished with hiragana. I'm now learning katakana, and then ill move onto kanji&vocab&grammar. but anyways, anybody mind answering this?

ive seen うめ used both as destiny and beach im pretty sure, what does it mean?

also, how do u spell gambattene which means "do your best"?　ガンバ手ねえ？

also, somebody mind clueing me in on some variations?

whats the diffrent between ありがとうございます ありがとうございません and　ありがとうございまｓた？

ほんとね、 ほのとわ, ほんと too?

あり～

[Ledgem]

I'm guessing it's been mentioned here, but I did want to give a quick review of a new dictionary that I picked up: The Kodansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary (2002).

I typically use an online dictionary system for both English-Japanese and Japanese-English lookups, as well as kanji lookups. Kanji searching has always been a bit slow, given that I can only do a lookup based on the number of strokes. I began writing down the radical codes for some of the more common radicals, which speeds the process up quite a bit, but I'm out of luck when I don't have the radical code.

My teacher recommended this book when I remarked that I disliked our new method of learning kanji. In the first four semesters of Japanese, we used Nakama as our textbook (Nakama 1 for the first two, and Nakama 2 for the next two). Nakama teaches kanji by showing the character, how to build the character stroke by stroke, giving the readings, the meaning(s) of the character, and some examples of its usage. In the Advanced I and Advanced II Japanese classes, we've been using An Integrated Approach to Intermediate Japanese, which gives "good to know how to write" and "good to know how to read" kanji for each chapter. The kanji are given in a numerical list, and they come in the word that they were presented in elsewhere in the chapter. The meaning and reading of that compound is given on separate pages and in the order that they showed up in, rather than the list order, making for some hunting on the students' part. Our classes supplement that by having teacher-made worksheets showing how to build the character stroke-by-stroke, and requiring us to write it nine or so times ourselves. The issue with that is that I'm no longer able to glean the meaning of the individual kanji; learning it as a compound makes it harder on me.

To that end, the Kanji Learner's Dictionary is wonderful. It presents the kanji in a manner similar to Nakama, only providing more meanings, and more example sentence and word examples. Coming from the digital dictionaries, I was skeptical about this being any quicker. It utilizes the Halpern Skip Code, which I'd never known how to use before. It's quite easy: count the number of strokes in the radical, and then the number in the main part of the kanji. For example, 洋 would have a Halpern code of 3-6. There are some difficulties, such as when the radicals aren't so easily discernable. The dictionary is also good about showing common mistakes about classification that people may make, showing the character you wanted, telling you what the classification error was, and which its entry can be found at (almost like Google's "Did you mean...?" feature). For certain kanji, they also show similar-looking kanji under a note so that you won't get them confused.

Perhaps best of all, if you're like me and use the electronic systems heavily, the back of the dictionary contains all of the radicals and their codes! So this may even be helpful to endeavors when using the electronic dictionaries for lookups. However, even though I've read criticisms of it, the Halpern skip code is an even faster way of finding most kanji - as many electronic dictionaries do allow you to use it as well, it would be helpful to know (hence my brief tutorial about it here).

My only complaint with the dictionary is that all of the readings are given in Romaji, rather than providing them in Hiragana. Worse, the Romaji employs "strange" English characters - for me, I'm not quite certain about how to translate all of them into Hiragana. I don't think it'd hinder one's ability to figure out the pronounciation, though.

The dictionary also provides a list of the most frequently used kanji (as of 1998, I believe) and their order of usage, for those who are interested. If you're doing self-study, such a list may be helpful to go by for prioritizing what kanji to learn. I believe that Nakama and our classes initially followed that list (or something similar), although we began with the simpler characters and only gradually worked up to the more complicated characters.

Overall, I'm happy with the dictionary. I bought mine for relatively cheap off of eBay, and I'd recommend it to anyone else who's displeased with their own kanji progress or learning method.

//

Does anyone have any recommendations for how to pick up scientific/medical Japanese, aside from finding a medical dictionary (if those even exist - I've only seen one for German-English medical terminology so far)? That's my intended usage for the language, and I find that my courses understandably avoid such terms and words (with the exception of a "visiting the doctor" chapter, which focused on describing your own symptoms). Thanks in advance.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by deathreape98

I finally stopped being lazy and started actually studying Japanese, and im finished with hiragana. I'm now learning katakana, and then ill move onto kanji&vocab&grammar. but anyways, anybody mind answering this?

ive seen うめ used both as destiny and beach im pretty sure, what does it mean?

For destiny (fate), it's うんめい. For beach, it's うみ. うめ seems to be some sort of Japanese apricot, but another meaning (more popular usage) is the "lowest-ranking of a three-tiered system."

also, how do u spell gambattene which means "do your best"?　ガンバ手ねえ?

がんばって - as you've probably found, there is no "m" in Japanese (only mu, ma, mi, mo, me). "Gambatte" is a common butchering of the spelling in English. Ganbatte is the te-form of the verb (command form), meaning "do your best." As a verb, it is がんばる ("to persist; to insist on; to stand firm; to try one's best"), and in usage it is がんばります - it's an う-verb. (If any of those terms aren't familiar, you may not be there yet in your studying.)

I touch on it a bit lower, but the ね ending is sort of an agreement seeker. So がんばって、ね？／がんばってね！ would translate to "do your best, alright?" or something along those lines.

You wrote がんばってねえ - just to note, the "correct" way of writing that would be がんばってねぇ (to get a small え type x before the character to make it smaller like that - doesn't work with all characters). I consider that more a literary thing, to show that the person is dragging out the sound. You can run across it in manga, or some games (example: うぐぅぅぅぅ〜). If you write it in the regular size, people may misinterpret it as being a spelling of the word itself, rather than just a literary expression that you're dragging out that last sound.

also, somebody mind clueing me in on some variations?

whats the diffrent between ありがとうございます ありがとうございません and　ありがとうございまsた?

ございません is something I've never heard, but it doesn't really make any sense as it's in the negative form (but it doesn't mean "no thank you"). More likely you've heard 「ありがとうございませ」 which, as far as I know, is just shopkeeper speak. It has the same meaning as ありがとうございます。

The difference between "gozaimasu" and "gozaimashita" is in the tense - su is present/future tense while shita is past tense. So in usage, ありがとうございました could be for something that someone already did, whereas ありがとうございます is thanking someone for something that they are doing or will do. However, in practical usage the two seem to be interchangable, so don't fret over it.

ほんとね、 ほのとわ, ほんと too?

Spelling correction: it's 本当(ほんとう)。 The "wa" ending is a feminine particle thing - it's a language pattern that can be used by females (or males who want to sound feminine - don't do this in reality around other people please). Unless you're thinking of ほんとうは, which is a part of the sentence stating that "the reality/truth is."

The "ne" ending seeks agreement, and is used in other things as well (for example, the often-heard 「ですね?」 and such). 「ほんとうね」could, depending on context, mean "really?" or even "really!" (seeking agreement or giving agreement).

ほんとう alone means truth or reality.

あり~

That was longer than I expected and switching languages like that was terrible. Should I charge you? (Just kidding)

[WanderingKnight]

And let's not get started on when I started learning French. ("Suddenly objects have genders to add to the confusion now?? Gimme a break!")

Hey! My language has genders for objects too! (Spanish) >_<

However, I'm with you in the fact that French does actually make use of the object's gender in verb inflexions... I hate French with passion, and I had to learn it for five years >_<

[TakutoKun]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Hey! My language has genders for objects too! (Spanish) >_<

However, I'm with you in the fact that French does actually make use of the object's gender in verb inflexions... I hate French with passion, and I had to learn it for five years >_<

La langue d'amour; c'est français!

Though, Japanese is just très chic!

[Autumn Demon]

ん！！！

Is there any way of knowing when ん　is silent/nasalized like in 本　（ほん）, ごきげんよう, 金曜日　（きんようび）, and 千円　（せんえん）?
I've heard　ん is always pronounced as 'm' when a 'b' or 'p' come after it. Is there a rule like that for when ん　is silent? Or do you just have to memorize special cases?

[Phiinx]

i have been taking japanese classes, and i've already learnt quite alot..
like good morning is : ohio
good afternoon : konichiwa...
good evening : conbawa... [if that's how you spell it]
if you wanna say it nicely you wanna add gozaimass[i don't know how to spell that either]!! yeah lol

[Terrestrial Dream]

How many Kanji do I have to know to read properly? I probably know the meaning of about 40 kanji, really basic stuff like ten(sky or heaven I guess), ai(love), and haku(white)

[iamtetsuo]

Originally Posted by Phiinx

i have been taking japanese classes, and i've already learnt quite alot..
like good morning is : ohio
good afternoon : konichiwa...
good evening : conbawa... [if that's how you spell it]
if you wanna say it nicely you wanna add gozaimass[i don't know how to spell that either]!! yeah lol

Good morning is spelt "ohayoo" in romanji. Ohayoo is also just the informal way of saying good morning, most of the time you would say "Ohayoo gozaimasu"
Good afternoon is "konnichi wa," the double n is important.
Good evening is "konban wa"
And you almost got gozaimasu right. The u is silent, depending on the accent.

So far I have memorized ? ? ? ? and ?. I have to have ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? and ? memorized by tomorrow. EEK time to go study...

Hey how come my hiragana symbols aren't showing up? Grr. Well I have a through o memorized and I have to memorize ka through so.

[Risaa]

Originally Posted by iamtetsuo

Good morning is spelt "ohayoo" in romanji.

Well... it depends which system of romanization you're using. You can check out more on that at the wiki. If anyone thinks that's confusing, let's try romanizing Korean....