Character Discussion - Kallen

[bladeofdarkness]

i said cut it out becouse sarcasem is a way to DEFLECT questions
not answer them
and i dont think either kallen or suzaku would WANT to start a romantic relatioship
i think it is something that would grow out of a different sort of relatioship between them (UST, the great motivator)
but what ever

good luck in history class

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i said cut it out becouse sarcasem is a way to DEFLECT questions
not answer then
and i dont think either kallen or suzaku would WANT to start a romantic relatioship
i think it is something that would grow out of a different sort of relatioship between them (UST, the great motivator)
but what ever

good luck in history class

Wrong. My sarcasm is being used while i do reply questions. Try and pay attention more.
And again, you seem to avoid IT, when i do say, that you discard GinoKare in the future, while you accept Kallezaku. Hum, i wonder why that is. Maybe because it is indeed, you got double-standards and you do not want to admit that.

[bladeofdarkness]

but i just told you EXACTLY why i dont think kagino is likely to happen
i dont JUST write it out and i dont avoid it
i explain WHY i write it out

why do you think its likely
reasons please
not just "anything could happen"
why would kallen's opinion change towards gino (given that she is shown to dislike his attempts)

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

but i just told you EXACTLY why i dont think kagino is likely to happen
i dont JUST write it out and i dont avoid it
i explain WHY i write it out

why do you think its likely
reasons please

It is not likely to happen. And Kallezaku is not likely to happen either. You use your if-scenario, that Suzaku might break out a bit, and Kallen will be there to help him.
So you use an "if" inside an "if." I just follow the trend to show you, that "if", can lead everyone to everything. But it will ultimately go against canon.
And it will go, no matter what you say, about "i think it will not" , cause yeah, it will.
Good for fanworks and stuff, but not for anything else.

[bladeofdarkness]

fine
guess we'll never see eye to eye about this matter
dont you have school BTW

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

fine
guess we'll never see eye to eye about this matter
dont you have school BTW

School can wait for 5 mins, i am just trying to bring down your argument. I always have to win. 8D
At least admit, you are being double-stanadrd-ery. You saw last PD, Kallen is fine, Zerozaku is fine. Unless your if-scenario happens, then there is no if-chance between them.

[bladeofdarkness]

i wont admit to the double standerd one (if you always have to win, i never admit total defeat )
but i will admit to the other part
Unless my if-scenario happens, then there is no chance between them.
whetehr or not you think that such a scenario is likely or not
thats another topic

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i wont admit to the double standerd one (if you have to win, i wont admit total defeat)
but i will admit to the other part
Unless my if-scenario happens, then there is no chance between them.
whetehr or not you think that such a scenario is likely or not
thats another topic

Still score for me! Spin-on, my winning drill, haha.
So, we did settle an in-peace, with my rule and terms, yep, sounds like me and about right. |D

And now, i really have to go, but come on, i mostly did this cause i have observed you are a sucker for debating, have to give you bones when i can. It can be boring in work, if you got no amusing-debating-sessions. I am a good, altruistic person deep down. 8)

[bladeofdarkness]

10x for that then

[yvj]

Whew Lots of things happened when I fell asleep.

I'll say this I'm not as dedicated to this Suzaku Kallen thing as Blade is. I do think Kallen will be eternal widowed. It's more in character for her, as Suzaku's Zero path is for him. That being said I don't find Blade's idea unreasonable though I acknowledge the difficulty of it. I will also admit this appeals to me more from a writer's perspective then something strictly in the show's universe.

Here a little a bit of TL;DR that I'm putting out there.

Spoiler for Wall text:

a) Double standard?

Here's the difference between this and Kaginio

1) At the very least this one has a bond to work with. Though it's got many different complex issues to overcome. Kallen treated Gino with anger, then mild indifference, and finally what can only be described as a forced acquaintanceship. There is no significant prior relationship, Kallen doesn't respect him. Gino has to think Lelouch is an asshole, and let's face it he's a pretty boy douche who is about as complex as tic tac toe. Unlike Suzaku he can't understand the pain, and sacrifice Kallen went through. Trying to establish a Kagino relationship out of that is like snatching oxygen molecules out of water with your bare hands.

2) Much of Kagino stems from anti Kalulu ending sentiment. We can all tell when it's happening. Like pornography some of us might not be able to describe it (I know I can) but we know it when we see it. This is completely different. I'm a kalulu fan and the last thing I want is to slap Kallen together because a) I think she needs it (I don't) b) Gino is hot c) Kallen is getting in the way of my fav ship.


Nah I thought about it. And I can't in all good conscience put SuzakuXKallen in the same leagues as Kagino. It's a different beast entirely. So I want to put to rest the idea that if one can accept a scenario with Suzaku that you must accept one with Gino. As they say on the streets of NY "miss me with that" It's not a double standard, the differences between them are continent wide. you look at both cases and make reasonable assessments.

If you don't like either fantastic, but if you want to dip into the what if scenario, clearly CLEARY one of these things has more of a basis than the other. For Kagino you actually have to go out of your way to make stuff up to have a connection between those two.

Kallen and Gino are friends = Made up assessment. There's no indication she even cares to be around him for any period of time.

Kallen and Gino were rivals, so they have history = Kallen has never acknowledged Gino as a rival. Suzaku and Kallen yeah obvious

Kallen and Gino have respect for each other = Yes Kallen has enough respect to yell at him. Or regard him with polite indifference. That's enough I suppose.

Gino never wanted to kill elevens = Come on

Kallen and Gino both have an equal understanding of ZR = LMAO

And if I have to list these things every time for it to not be a double standard, I will.

To IF or not to IF that is the questions: I. E the slippery slope of "What if"

(The realm of speculation & fanfiction)

Now you're saying hey if you "what if" one thing, we can "what if" anything. Yes we can what if anything. We "what if" all the time. Like "what if" Lelouch hadn't died, he would probably go off and have many, many babies with Kallen. "If-ing" in on itself is not wrong, but like opinions not all "ifs" are created equal. Some have more merit than others. Any ideas past what we see in episode 25 and the post material is fanmade, but there are things that are reasonable courses of actions for the characters, and things that are WTF? I don't buy that Kallen needs love. And with her max loyalty she can eternal widow this thing till she's 100. However you can reasonably argue that she doesn't need love but might initially need companionship. Which is my main argument from the beginning if Kallen were to seek companionship, then Suzaku >>> everything else IMO. She's not replacing Lelouch in her heart, nor is she falling madly in love. Same goes for Suzaku , you can make the case for Nunnaly which is fair one.

There are enough reasons why Kallen and Suzaku could seek out each others companionship. The main reason being the shared secret understanding of what happened in ZR. When you share a large secret with someone unless you are ashamed of it, its not ridiculous for you to want to seek them out and maybe share thoughts. Even IF (again) the world is turning out sweet, you go "hey Lelouch didn't die in vain thumbs up dude." From this companionship stems the discussion of whether anything can arise from this. Yes it is wholly fanfiction, is it against canon....No...because there is no animosity between Kallen and Suzaku, and they have reasons to keep in touch (shared secret).

There are just two important questions that must be answered really.

1) How against canon is it for Kallen to start a relationship even with Lelouch still holding most if not all of her heart?

2) How against canon is it for Suzaku to let himself slip from the path of punishment and enjoy a measure of happiness?

Obviously, OBVIOUSLY Kallen and Suzaku can continue on their respective routes. But from the beginning of the discussion the question is can something be built? I argue that there is definitely enough material to establish that relationship and avoid complete character derailment.

[bladeofdarkness]

you put what i was kinda going for VERY nicely
and i would just add that kallen and suzaku were both promoting different views on how to do things
but they were both ultimately trying to do the same thing
and thats also a bond they share
they spent years trying to improve the lives of the japanese people

they just had to do it with knightmares instead of cellphones

[incorrupts]

With this logic then, Kallen could have hooked up with Ougi {or any of the other members of BK, she actually had a friendly-ish relationship}, had he not found Viletta. They share way more bonds than her and Suzaku.

[bladeofdarkness]

putting aside the age thing
none of them know about the truth about lelouch (all view him as an evil basterd)

edit:
and why are half the people on this thread invisible
there are like 6 members and only 3 visible
whats up with the stealth

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

putting aside the age thing
none of them know about the truth about lelouch (all view him as an evil basterd)

So now the bond, Kallen would need to have with someone, is for someone that knows the truth? Hum, i could see why you would use that logic. Eliminates everyone but Suzaku. Lol, god, you are such a hardcore shipper blade, haha.
So, then you mean, that Kallen would like for someone to know the truth about Lelouch. For what? I suspect to have a chit-chat with that someone, about how the man she loved had a nice and deep heart inside despite popular belief. And then, after the chit-chat about the man she used to love, they would proceed for rabu-rabu. Yep, totally working. |DD

eta: there, things i do for you. 8)

[bladeofdarkness]

i said its PART of the reason
there is also the age thing
and the fact that they betrayed lelouch after all he did for them (and almost killed her for trying to defend him)

the fact that they dont know the truth about lelouch may not HAVE to be a point AGAINST them
but its a HUGH point in suzaku's favor
he can understand what she's going through better then anyone else (given what happened with euphie)

and thank you

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

i said its PART of the reason
there is also the age thing
and the fact that they betrayed lelouch after all he did for them (and almost killed her for trying to defend him)

the fact that they dont know the truth about lelouch may not HAVE to be a point AGAINST them
but its a HUGH point in suzaku's favor
he can understand what she's going through better then anyone else (given what happened with euphie)

and thank you

Suzaku's favor? Alright, i can get that. But again, it is not like Suzaku is aiming for Kallen-wuv-me. The only "if" that could be raised, was in your "ifx2" scenario of yours.
Kallen could actually fall for random passenger #48454, in the future? Sounds off? Oh, screw me i know, but future = endless possibilities. {sorry, can't help it. 8D}

[bladeofdarkness]

your right about suzaku not AIMING for kallen
and kallen is even LESS likely to aim at ANYONE (suzaku included)
there are several IF's that could be raised about what could or couldnt happen
but the main point about my IF's is basiclly this

the number of people on earth who suzaku could possibly talk to as himself is pretty much limited to nunnaly and kallen
and i dont think nunnaly would allow him to just give up on kallen as a potential friend given that she's the only one he is ever likely to HAVE (aside from nunnaly herself of course)
so i think she'll at least try to get the two of them speaking again
and since they dont actually HAVE any real reason NOT to be friends again, and would infact both BENIFIT from such a friendship
i think she'd probably succeed in getting them to reconcile and become friends again

given that assumpsion
IF (this is it) suzaku is ever in a state of depression
which is LIKELY to happen at some point, he's only human and he can have bad days, or feel sick or tired, or make mistakes
IF he is ever in a state of depression
and kallen picks up on that fact
she is more likely (IMO) to get him to open up and tell her whats wrong then nunnaly is
for the simple reason that she is JUST AS STUBBORN AS HE IS and she is not above using force when the time calls for it

IF he DOES come to be able to talk to her about his problems, then she could end up as an emotional support for him
from THAT point, i leave the rest to a mix of UST and mutual admiration that they have for each other
it could happen or it wont
but my point is that its at least possible
and i think that everything other then the bolded part is actually LIKELY to happen

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

your right about suzaku not AIMING for kallen
and kallen is even LESS likely to aim at ANYONE (suzaku included)
there are several IF's that could be raised about what could or couldnt happen
but the main point about my IF's is basiclly this

the number of people on earth who suzaku could possibly talk to as himself is pretty much limited to nunnaly and kallen
and i dont think nunnaly would allow him to just give up on kallen as a potential friend given that she's the only one he is ever likely to HAVE (aside from nunnaly herself of course)
so i think she'll at least try to get the two of them speaking again
and since they dont actually HAVE any real reason NOT to be friends again, and would infact both BENIFIT from such a friendship
i think she'd probably succeed in getting them to reconcile and become friends again

given that assumpsion
IF (this is it) suzaku is ever in a state of depression
which is LIKELY to happen at some point, he's only human and he can have bad days, or feel sick or tired, or make mistakes
IF he is ever in a state of depression
and kallen picks up on that fact
she is more likely (IMO) to get him to open up and tell her whats wrong then nunnaly is
for the simple reason that she is JUST AS STUBBORN AS HE IS and she is not above using force when the time calls for it

IF he DOES come to be able to talk to her about his problems, then she could end up as an emotional support for him
from THAT point, i leave the rest to a mix of UST and mutual admiration that they have for each other
it could happen or it wont
but my point is that its at least possible

Quoting Simon {my third God, first is Lelouch, second is Kamina, my original God is Guren however, haha} even if it is 0,00000001% {<---this is what i give your OTP blade} i suppose it can categorized as possible. Do i win in a smooth-criminal-way again, or what? 8)

[bladeofdarkness]

let me ask this
do you think that the REST of the post (other then the last two lines)
is something unlikely ?

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

let me ask this
do you think that the REST of the post (other then the last two lines)
is something unlikely ?

Why do you care much about my opinion about this? 8D
I just went ahead for the juicy point, simple.