2008-03-09, 06:42 | Link #821 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Overall, it is more believable to mumble that they use Panzergeist to defend against bullets. That, at least, is hard, and even Signum freezes when using it. As for the idea that the BJ will somehow be more protective against a high velocity attack, well, that is pretty hard to buy. Whatever the mechanism, sheer velocity, all other factors being equal, will force the dispersing system (with no clear mechanism mentioned) to disperse more KE and give it a shorter period of time to do it in. |
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2008-03-09, 06:47 | Link #822 | |
~ I Do ~
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In the XV-8A Spartan "00"
Age: 38
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2008-03-09, 07:17 | Link #823 | |
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However, that's not quite the same thing. The water actually still puts up resistance - it is just that your velocity is slower so you don't feel it as hard. If it is high velocity, the forces acting on your hand is harder so it starts to hurt, but if you ignore the pain, you should still reach out further down than you would if the velocity is slower, all else being equal (its hard to do it with a hand because when you are moving it down, you concurrently apply force even if you try not to). As for hardening momentarily upon impact. The best way to get past a hard material is still a tougher penetrator and a high velocity. Unless it has a gate velocity during which it does not harden. That could work, except then the Gate is set all wrong. 60m/s is still ~200km/h, and 16m/s will still be ~50. Do you really want your BJ to not protect you against things of that velocity range coming at you. |
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2008-03-09, 08:33 | Link #824 | |
Hi-Eternal
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Backyard of Moriya shrine
Age: 39
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About the water analogy, You forget about the surface impact. A large surface gives more resistant than small surface. If the object is small it will penetrate deeper than an big object that travel at the same speed.
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(From IRC) Nanoha falls through concrete (thanks to eisen) -> little damage on BJ. Eisen hit Nanoha's BJ -> destroys outer layer of BJ. The energy that hit Nanoha's BJ is about the same, so size of the attack matters. |
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2008-03-09, 08:39 | Link #825 |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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I thought that was the Reactor Purge running. But indeed, you are correct that area of attack matters too, but that's something that favors conventional weapons. Divine Buster is a literal shotgun blast. Not to mention of course hydrodynamics - just change from sticking your palm flat to sticking it into the water vertically, and penetrating becomes much easier.
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2008-03-09, 08:50 | Link #827 |
~Night of Gales~
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Depending on what factor we're talking about, it doesn't make sense for BJs to not have protection against conventional weapons, considering stuff like sudden G-forces are heavily dampened by BJs, clearly.
I'm almost wondering if BJs have any dampening effect on things like extremely loud sound or something. Being in the constant presence of explosions and probably strong lights doesn't seem to have any degree of effect on mages.
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2008-03-09, 09:12 | Link #828 | |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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I want to point out that the Barrier Jacket, as stated by Rein in A's to StrikerS, consists of 2 main forms of magical defense: a Barrier and a Field. The Barrier is the smaller scale version of a full on protective barrier. The Field, as explained by Rein, can be set to specifically be anti-condition, such as anti-cold (that being the example she used.) Thus, to expand in fuller form of the theory: The Barrier Jacket is the last-ditch defense of a mage against attack/falling. The Field is set to dampen the effects of kinetic impact (note that they way Rein explains the Field, is that it has a dampening effect on the conditions it's set against), spreading out the impact across the mage's body and bleeding the energy away into the atmosphere. We're not referring to the fabric of the BJ at all. We're talking about the Field that is part of the BJ's defenses. EDIT: To follow on to Nighty, the current theory is that the Barrier Jacket's protections are from two sources: Barrier and Field, as stated by Rein in A's to StrikerS. The Barrier serves to protect against beamfire and probably winds etc. The Field is probably set to protect against environmental/element threats, such as cold (Rein's example), and possibly loud noises, impact, etc. This is the theory we're discussing. The 4 types of defence are Barrier, Shield, Field and Physical Shield. Rein makes no mention of the Barrier Jacket's fabric having Physical Shield properties, only mentioning that it uses a combo of Barrier and Field. Furthermore, mentions of Panzergeist vs Knight Armor/Barrier Jacket are apples & oranges. The Barrier Jacket is the last ditch defense. It's like wearing a "bulletproof" vest. The Barrier and Shield spells and Panzergeist are like summoning tank armor to protect you. Totally different things. Note that Fate took one helluva fall in A's and yet is alright, while nobody would dream of tanking beamfire without at least a Shield. Also, "beams travel slower" is meant relatively in comparison to rifle rounds. And I recall a huge amount of arguing on rifle rounds being faster than beams, and it being decided that beams were faster. Also, Ark, I would like to point out that 100meters cannot possibly be the max range of beam attacks as Vice was sniping the ball Drones on the Cradle and that was too far to be 300 feet. I've paced it out and measured with own eyes how large human targets appear at 300 feet. EDIT: Dispersing system: Magic. There's a reason this show is called Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-03-09 at 09:32. |
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2008-03-09, 09:42 | Link #829 | ||
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2008-03-09, 09:46 | Link #830 | |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
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Eisengehaul is a magical flashbang on an uber scale, I have no problems with it. EDIT: Another ignored post? C'mon, surely you can find something to reply to the theory of how Fields protect from Kinetic impact.
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2008-03-09, 10:00 | Link #831 | ||||
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If you are d
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And if a field stops "environmental effects", like temperature and gases, which generally intrude into the defensive area at low velocity, it is difficult to imagine it stopping a discrete high velocity object. If anything, it'll be the barrier's "gentle-stop" function that provides the canonical anti-shock protection. Further, despite several paragraphs, you still had not gotten to within a lightyear of my main objection. Call it a field, call it a barrier, but why will it be more effective in attenuating high velocity than low. Quote:
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2008-03-09, 10:04 | Link #832 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Am I not allowed a few minutes to make my reply, goddarnit...
... you guys have been on IRC too long. With posts, even a 24-72 hour delay is not really running.
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2008-03-09, 10:08 | Link #833 | ||||
Truth Martyr
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Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
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Will reply more in-depth tomorrow, quick glossy reply before i sleep. Ah, waking up at 5 am...
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There's a reason we called it a theory and called for discussion. Quote:
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Actually, it's only since Friday for us Azns that Outer Cadia went to IRC; but even before then, OC moves a helluva lotta faster than the other threads on Animesuki, it seems.
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2008-03-09, 10:16 | Link #835 | ||
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2008-03-09, 10:17 | Link #836 | |||
Wild card
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Finland
Age: 39
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why not merely adjust the field to resist objects from outside from moving to the inside, effectively creating a dampening field... and the rapid slowing would wreck havoc to just about anything that enters the field. Quote:
AFAIK, it was because the bullet cannot take the forces that affect it upon entering water, and breaking apart, thus lessening the amount of force (and hence distance) needed to fully bring it to a halt... ...and since the water resists harder when the bullet enters with a greater velocity, the bullet breaks down faster if it has a greater velocity. And the entire field is part of the BJ provided by an intelligent device, which seem to have rather good sensory capabilities (bardiche noting suzuka and arisa when they were still rather far away, and out of LoS) so the field would be adjusted to dampen the bullet by the time it was shot, thanks to the AI in the device. Quote:
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2008-03-09, 10:36 | Link #837 | |
Adeptus Animus
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Age: 36
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Hence why we have the entire 'what do the creators intent VS what do we see' debate. It is obvious that simply observing is not an accurate measure of deciding that magic is faster or slower then normal projectiles. Judging by Vice and Nanoha, we can assume that magic can travel at similar speeds, but the action is merely slowed for dramatic effect. |
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2008-03-09, 10:58 | Link #838 | |
~Night of Gales~
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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I think debating on the 'range' thing just because Vice has something shaped like a proper weapon is kinda moot. Canonically, Vice is a out-range specialist to the point that despite he's good enough to be called an Ace however limited he is, so that kind of range should be no problem to him.
Since Teana, if I recall, was closer to an all-rounder round of shooter with her last limiter allowing her attack range to be greatly increased, it's doubtful that it's as far as Vice's maximum range. Quote:
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2008-03-09, 10:59 | Link #839 | ||
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Outer Cadia
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The barrier jacket protects in proportion to the amount of kinetic energy applied behind an attack/impact. Exactly how it does this is unknown. We think that the field of a BJ bleeds the kinetic energy into the atmosphere. Or It maybe like what SpaceBrotha mention, the field acts like how water stops a higher velocity bullet far more effectively than a slower moving bullet. Personally I'm asking could this theory hold any water at all. Its a theory. Its not like we have a mage to test this out on or a barrier jacket to break down to see how it works. |
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2008-03-09, 11:50 | Link #840 | ||||||||
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Effective Range is partially a function of accuracy. Bullet velocity being another factor. Quote:
Obviously, what happened is that some rounds do travel faster than others, but it will be a rare one indeed that even has the speed of a pistol bullet. Quote:
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Yes, a higher KE incident means more energy that can potentially go into deforming the bullet. However, which side takes most of the KE damage greatly depends on which side is stronger, and since a BJ defensive complex, to all presentations is relatively soft and flexible, it won't be winning many such fights. |
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