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Old 2013-01-04, 16:45   Link #341
Cyprene
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Join Date: Oct 2006
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That is impossible to work around?!?
It's certainly not impossible, but obviously "Demon Queen" is off the table.

One question: I've seen Onna Kishi (Female Knight) translated as "Paladin" in this thread and I think a few other places. Does anyone know where this comes from? It's certainly not implied by the Japanese, and I don't think she has any paladin-like attributes. I think she may use some kind of healing on Hero at some point (Though I can't remember if this actually happens or where). Her position at the church is a strictly administrative one.


Quote:
For a show about economics, the Demon King's theory is predicated on a fallacy that's been known since the 19th Century.
You're correct in the long-term, but Demon King is correct in the short term. But Keynes's phrase, "In the long run we're all dead," is especially applicable here. You're correct that ideally, ending the war and stopping the transfer payments to the southern nations would allow the craftsmen and workers who are currently making swords, armor, etc. to repurpose their efforts towards making plowshares, furniture, and things that will increase the standard of living for the society as a whole. And in the long term, this is what would happen.
The problem is that the entire society is currently set up in a kind of stable equilibrium that consists of the following elements:
  1. Deaths from the war (EIther from combat, or from Demons burning down villages) act as a check on population growth.
  2. War funding from the central nations to the southern ones "employs" a large standing army of people who have no skills other than knowing how to kill things.
  3. A large portion of the central nation industrial base is devoted to producing war materials.

End the war, and you've knocked out all three of these simultaneously. This means:
  1. Without the war depleting the "surplus population", as Scrooge called them, you have a lot more mouths to feed and no good way to do it. The war is taking place far, far away from the major agricultural centers (It's in the south, where it's freaking cold and you can barely grow anything. The agricultural centers are in the central nations.) Those agricultural areas are running at peak efficiency now, and ending the war won't make them produce anymore food.
  2. With no war, there's no need to maintain a large standing army, so the soldiers will be sent home. But they have no trade skills and there's no food, so it's going to take them about 5 minutes before they start burning and pillaging. Ideally, you could do some kind of training program, but...
  3. You've shut down the defense industry and so you've also got huge numbers of unemployed. These people will have no means to support themselves until they can be retrained to do something useful. A lot of them are going to starve to death while they're waiting.


Any one of these could be solved on their own, but taken together you have a one-two-three punch of famines, brigands, and unemployment that threatens to destroy the society altogether. Even if it eventually did reach another stable equilibrium, during the process, as the Demon King says, "Millions of people are going to die."

Of course, a sophisticated enough economic policy could probably mitigate a lot of the damage, but this is a world where the only person who knows the word "Economics" is the Demon King. So a lot of the options that would be available to a modern government are going to be completely unknown to the human world, and also likely completely unfeasible in a mostly feudal system. (I'm sure you can easily envision the response of a feudal lord when asked to pay money to feed the hungry people. "You want me to pay tax money to FEED them? Just let them starve!")

So the Demon King's solution, while difficult and roundabout, is the correct and sensible one for her situation.
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Old 2013-01-04, 16:56   Link #342
felix
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This is pretty fast paced, I'll give it a chance... better not slow down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Maybe I was a bit harsh since I did actually appreciate the world building, but in all honesty I couldn't help but think the show's bigger focus (lol) was the moe romance, which does have a guilty pleasure feel to it.
Well she does have a f'ing hero daki, lol.
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Old 2013-01-04, 17:00   Link #343
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyprene View Post
It's certainly not impossible, but obviously "Demon Queen" is off the table.

One question: I've seen Onna Kishi (Female Knight) translated as "Paladin" in this thread and I think a few other places. Does anyone know where this comes from? It's certainly not implied by the Japanese, and I don't think she has any paladin-like attributes. I think she may use some kind of healing on Hero at some point (Though I can't remember if this actually happens or where). Her position at the church is a strictly administrative one.
Well, while I have no interest in calling her that, she's a knight affiliated with a church and who knows healing magic. That sounds pretty paladin-ish to me.


Quote:

You're correct in the long-term, but Demon King is correct in the short term. But Keynes's phrase, "In the long run we're all dead," is especially applicable here. You're correct that ideally, ending the war and stopping the transfer payments to the southern nations would allow the craftsmen and workers who are currently making swords, armor, etc. to repurpose their efforts towards making plowshares, furniture, and things that will increase the standard of living for the society as a whole. And in the long term, this is what would happen.
The problem is that the entire society is currently set up in a kind of stable equilibrium that consists of the following elements:
  1. Deaths from the war (EIther from combat, or from Demons burning down villages) act as a check on population growth.
  2. War funding from the central nations to the southern ones "employs" a large standing army of people who have no skills other than knowing how to kill things.
  3. A large portion of the central nation industrial base is devoted to producing war materials.

End the war, and you've knocked out all three of these simultaneously. This means:
  1. Without the war depleting the "surplus population", as Scrooge called them, you have a lot more mouths to feed and no good way to do it. The war is taking place far, far away from the major agricultural centers (It's in the south, where it's freaking cold and you can barely grow anything. The agricultural centers are in the central nations.) Those agricultural areas are running at peak efficiency now, and ending the war won't make them produce anymore food.
  2. With no war, there's no need to maintain a large standing army, so the soldiers will be sent home. But they have no trade skills and there's no food, so it's going to take them about 5 minutes before they start burning and pillaging. Ideally, you could do some kind of training program, but...
  3. You've shut down the defense industry and so you've also got huge numbers of unemployed. These people will have no means to support themselves until they can be retrained to do something useful. A lot of them are going to starve to death while they're waiting.


Any one of these could be solved on their own, but taken together you have a one-two-three punch of famines, brigands, and unemployment that threatens to destroy the society altogether. Even if it eventually did reach another stable equilibrium, during the process, as the Demon King says, "Millions of people are going to die."

Of course, a sophisticated enough economic policy could probably mitigate a lot of the damage, but this is a world where the only person who knows the word "Economics" is the Demon King. So a lot of the options that would be available to a modern government are going to be completely unknown to the human world, and also likely completely unfeasible in a mostly feudal system. (I'm sure you can easily envision the response of a feudal lord when asked to pay money to feed the hungry people. "You want me to pay tax money to FEED them? Just let them starve!")

So the Demon King's solution, while difficult and roundabout, is the correct and sensible one for her situation.
That.

Also, she didn't present it as a choice between "war" and "world peace". It's a choice between "every human united to fight the demons" and "humans fighting each other as they were doing before the demons came up".
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Old 2013-01-04, 17:05   Link #344
Graveyard Duck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
For a show about economics, the Demon King's theory is predicated on a fallacy that's been known since the 19th Century.
You have a much higher opinion of economics than most people, economists themselves included, if you think a 19th century doctrine like that is not open to criticism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Well, while I have no interest in calling her that, she's a knight affiliated with a church and who knows healing magic. That sounds pretty paladin-ish to me.
There are other words for these kinds of knights--templar, for example. It also does not solve the problems of 1. her title containing the female indicator and 2. it translating to knight.
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Old 2013-01-04, 17:12   Link #345
MAX_COLA_POWER!
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If someone manages pull a solution to the current economical crisis of the world out of this series in this thread, I'm leaving^^:;.
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Old 2013-01-04, 17:17   Link #346
Dark Wing
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Not a bad first episode and while I understand that this show isn't going to be for everyone I'm pretty much sold. Being a fan if spice and wolf this is right up my ally.

Also as fare as the debate between the hero and demon lord. I'm thinking the demon lords argument is bit more sound and seems realistic.
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Old 2013-01-04, 17:23   Link #347
felix
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Cola, while you're leaving I would die of laughter...

This series is more like a "what if [this crazy economic logic actually worked]" kind of deal. Enjoy your guilty pleasure.

I hope though for the sake of the series they don't go too deep into the explanation of farming and such as they do in say the manga. I laughed when I read it, because it's basically the farmville/farming-simulator of manga-land, not sure if I'll laugh a second time.
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Old 2013-01-04, 17:31   Link #348
Spectacular_Insanity
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I really like this anime already, despite it only being a single episode in. The animation is superb, with tasteful use of CGI elements (that were well-done to make them seems like classic animation), funny and intelligent dialogue, and overall nice looking character design.

First thoughts when I finished the first episode were that it was kinda like a mix between Tears to Tiara and Spice and Wolf. That might be due in large part to the voice actors they used (Jun Fukuyama and Ami Koshimizu once again co-star in leading roles, just like in Spice and Wolf), but I swear the overall artwork style makes me think of those two other anime, as well. A solid medieval fantasy... my favorite apart from sci-fi.

I especially liked the end-credits roll with all of the classical medieval codex-style borders, initials, and miniatures that gave subtle hints to the personalities and roles of characters that haven't been fully introduced yet.

I am going to be looking forward to this show. I have a feeling that the wait between episodes is going to be agonizing for me.
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Old 2013-01-04, 18:05   Link #349
Kanon
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That was a very good introductory episode. It gave us a decent grasp of the political climate and the world's current situation. I enjoyed the show's pragmatic approach to war. I'm sure you can poke holes in the Demon King's theory, but it seems believable enough within the context of the series. Through war, the world has reached a precarious equilibrium that is threatened to be destroyed by peace if certain measures are not taken. Works for me. The bouncing boobs made the Demon King's argument even more convincing.

Not sure what the meat of the series will be yet (other than the DK's boobs): the romance, the comedy or the politics? I think I would enjoy a mix of those elements best. The best bit of comedy in the first ep was the removable horns. It hadn't even occurred to me that they might be fake, so the gag worked perfectly on me

I liked the art direction of the show, particularly the background art. The scenery is very pleasing to the eyes. I like the "painting effect" (not sure what to call it) they're using, the only problem is that the characters are animated normally so it's a bit jarring.
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Old 2013-01-04, 18:06   Link #350
XeroFyction
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This is how you start a new series! I laughed from start to finish. LOL at the ending which I'm not spoiling by the way.

I'm hoping my initial statement on this show's trajectory was not spot on.

Questions:

Will this series cover the entire manga?

How many episodes are included in this season?

Does anyone have gifs of hero and demon queen's respective faces when they don't understand each other?

Is there one female mage or three of them?
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Old 2013-01-04, 18:06   Link #351
Dop
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I wasn't massively impressed at first as it all looked massively generic, but there were a few things to get my hopes up that it won't be as generic as it seemed at first.
I'll give it the usual four episode trial.
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Old 2013-01-04, 18:07   Link #352
MAX_COLA_POWER!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Cola, while you're leaving I would die of laughter...

This series is more like a "what if [this crazy economic logic actually worked]" kind of deal. Enjoy your guilty pleasure.

I hope though for the sake of the series they don't go too deep into the explanation of farming and such as they do in say the manga. I laughed when I read it, because it's basically the farmville/farming-simulator of manga-land, not sure if I'll laugh a second time.
The Ruby Eyes have me hypnotized. To be honest, I'd rather watch the cooky moments between the 2 MCs. Seeing Female knight just irks me to no end-v-;;.
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Old 2013-01-04, 18:09   Link #353
Cyprene
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Quote:
The bouncing boobs made the Demon King's argument even more convincing.
There was a line they didn't include from the original, that I was very surprised to see missing:

Hero: Alright, I will be yours.
Demon King: You're sure?
Hero: I am. Oh, and just so we're clear...
Demon King: ?
Hero: It's not because of your boobs!
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Old 2013-01-04, 18:16   Link #354
SQA
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@Cyprene:

It should probably be pointed out that "Unemployed Army" historically means rebellion, then invasion. Or, baring that, the Southern Countries with large standing armies would invade the Central Countries, as a way to keep their armies paid and feed. The Slaughter will take hold, either way, and huge amounts of the population will assuredly die.
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Old 2013-01-04, 18:22   Link #355
Xellos-_^
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still prefer the manga art work but got use to both the VA and the novel artwork really quick.

I like the interaction between the DQ and Hero and the insertion of the FK and Alfred. But i miss my charts and graphs and the intro was drawn out more then it need to imo.
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Old 2013-01-04, 18:28   Link #356
Panzerklein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bastek66 View Post

So much useless meat.
Spoiler for meat:
Demon Queen's second in biggest weapon.


But face design need make Demon Queen more luster for that scene. Look like Yuusha still a young virgin =)).
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Old 2013-01-04, 18:31   Link #357
00Coyote
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This show is going to be fighting an uphill battle with me.

Maoyuu Maou Yuusha (the Ishida Akira version) is one of my favorite stories, and I have a serious crush highly enjoy his version of Demon Queen. I've dreaded seeing this adaptation since it was announced because there is no way it could ever meet my expectations of how the story should be done. So I'm going in to this with very very low expectations.

So how'd they do?

Meh. I'll start with the decent.

So far, I like the voice of Demon Queen. It conveys some sense of intelligence. It needs more confidence and conviction.
It was a good call to cut to the merchants praising the war, instead of a wall of tl;dr Demon Queen explaining how the humans are profiting from the war.
The animation is passable.

The bad.
Hero's voice. No, just no.
Related to that, the interactions between Hero and Demon Queen lacked life and emotion. It was just there, say these lines, have these stock reactions, then show Demon Queen's boobs again.

The biggest failure of the show is they haven't given any indication that they won't go down the standard, abused romcom route. As in 90% standard formulatic romantic comedy. Oh gee, Hero's face ended up in Demon Queen's chest again, oh gee, both are embarrassed, oh my, Female Knight is angry and jealous. Been there, done that too many times for it to be even remotely entertaining.

Like Demon Queen I want to see something different. Something beyond the festering hill of standard anime Japan usually churns out. Will they be ambitious and succeed in showing us something interesting? It'd be nice, but I don't have much hope. Once they introduce the sisters and Female Knight, we'll see which direction they are going to go.
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Old 2013-01-04, 18:40   Link #358
FlareKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyprene View Post
There was a line they didn't include from the original, that I was very surprised to see missing:

Hero: Alright, I will be yours.
Demon King: You're sure?
Hero: I am. Oh, and just so we're clear...
Demon King: ?
Hero: It's not because of your boobs!
Well they certainly are skilled negotiators .

Would have had a laugh if they'd thrown that line in there.
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Old 2013-01-04, 18:41   Link #359
Dauerlutscher
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I like the manga because it gives me the same feeling like Spice and Wolf did. I will give this adaption a chance, but I still like like that art from the Ishida Akira manga version better.
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Old 2013-01-04, 18:46   Link #360
Cyprene
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Quote:
The biggest failure of the show is they haven't given any indication that they won't go down the standard, abused romcom route. As in 90% standard formulatic romantic comedy. Oh gee, Hero's face ended up in Demon Queen's chest again, oh gee, both are embarrassed, oh my, Female Knight is angry and jealous. Been there, done that too many times for it to be even remotely entertaining.
It's hard to say, but I can't see them going too hard down this route simply because the original story doesn't permit it. There's simply too much that's going to have to happen in 12 episodes to spend a lot of time at the Demon Hot Springs.
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