Fate/stay night Episode 16 Discussion thread

[iamandragon]

Oh...and about the 'kill seven times' problems you are all talking about...In Asian cultures there exists move/attacks that are almost curse-like which does not only damage their body, but their soul also. There are different effects, for example, the person's next life will be extremely fragile(and usually end up as the main character in the story, saving the world...), or imprisoning their souls so they will not be able to participate in the cycle of life anymore(Most Japanese believe in the 'next life' thingy). In this case the excalibur drains beserker's life, and the next 6, therefore killing him 7 times...
And again, a really rouge explaination, maybe someone else can explain this concept more clearly?

[gammaoh]

I understand clearly what you're trying to say and I can't add anything more... As you said, that sword "cursed" Saber with victory, thus cursed Berserker with defeat. Therefore, whatever number of lives Berserker had, it doesn't matter.

[Jaden]

I thought of something interesting...
When Archer died, Rin had one command spell left, but she lost it for some reason.
When Berserker died, Ilya kept all of her command spells (I assume she has all 3 left)

Is it because you need one command spell to make a pact with a new servant? I doubt it, since servants would probably be willing to get a new master if their current one was killed or drained of command spells. That way they could stay in the war.
Anyways...why doesn't Rin or Shirou take Ilya's command spells? She said she wouldn't use them anyways. It's a waste for her to keep them.
And also, the fact that masters can take each other's command spells means that even a single one wouldn't be useless. Maybe Rin still has a spell left, but it's just disappeared for now.

[neovu79]

Originally Posted by monstert

If the guy with Caster and Assassin is not a magician, how did he get involved in the war?

Who said he wasn't a magician to begin with?

[gammaoh]

Rin's Command Spell is not visible because she has no Servant anymore. That's my supposition anyway.

And a Master cannot transfer his/her Command Spells to another Master. That would be cheap.

The Grail chooses its 7 Masters and issues 3 Command Spells to each of them. As long as you got one, you're still a Master and you don't need to use one Command Spell to make a contract with a stray Servant.

Who said he wasn't a magician to begin with?

He said he doesn't qualify as a vessel for the Holy Grail since somebody from a magician lineage is required... But who said he has no power at all would be the real question ^^.

[neovu79]

Originally Posted by Cyz

Saber is so jealous whenever Ilya is clinging to Shirou

Spoiler:

and who would've thought that caster's master was shirou's teacher

Well... For some of us who have played to game... . Though even though many of the TV show and the game's aspects are the same, it seems as though TPTB are merging several stories together to ultimately come up with an ending that may be different from the game's.

[neovu79]

Originally Posted by andiyar

Spoiler:

Count the servants already mentioned in this war from the total of seven that were initially summoned:

Saber, Archer, Assassin, Berserker, Lancer, Caster, Rider

Let's just say that our golden clad friend doesn't seem to fit on the list....

-Andiyar

Spoiler:

I have to agree with you on this. It would not fit well to introduce Gilgamesh with the current story arc. TPTB seem to be going a different route than that of the game's. Though, who is to say that they won't do it?

[gammaoh]

Originally Posted by neovu79

Spoiler:

I have to agree with you on this. It would not fit well to introduce Gilgamesh with the current story arc. TPTB seem to be going a different route than that of the game's. Though, who is to say that they won't do it?

No one, of course .

[Mr. Guy]

Originally Posted by npal

Well, I haven't played the game, so I am free of the "follows the game" argument and expect a story that can stand for itself Most conversion do that, they keep something which was not well-written because it was in the game, instead of altering it to make it better. That just goes to show you that either the writers lack fundamental qualities, or the game companies give out strict instructions on how to convert the game.

Everything in this post is taking information from the anime, so don't fear

Considering this is a 100+ hour game that's broken up into three parts with three almost completely different storylines, it's almost impossible to have a standalone anime that contains everything. The "true" storyline of F/sn involves drawing your own conclusions from the events that happened in all three scenarios. You can't even begin to hope to have that all in a 24 episode series. So people should really just accept the fact that some characters will get shafted and move on with it.

Considering Saber's development, yeah it may be a little fast but the justification is practiculary being thrown in our faces. Saber says it herself in the most recent episode that Shirou and herself are the same. She shares his dreams and has seen parts of his past (one in particular, the land that was scorched during the last Grail War). Putting the guilt of that together with pseudo-sex and Shirou's want to not let her fight alone is enough of a reason for her to be a little nervous around him.

Yes, she's King Arthur and she should be above this stuff blah blah. But also don't forget the fact that she's still a young girl with the weight of an entire kingdom on her shoulders. Those two in the latest episode didn't look very happy to be submitting themselves to her. I suggest rewatching the episode where Shirou and Saber talk about her wish for the Grail. Doesn't really sound like she had a really nice life, eh? She's still a human with feelings, God forbid she falls in love with someone just like her that wants nothing more then to protect her

[Shiroth]

Another way of putting it - this is probably the first ever time Saber is starting to express feelings such as love. Joined together with everything else thats been said.. it makes a lot of sense.

[Archer]

Originally Posted by Mr. Guy

Everything in this post is taking information from the anime, so don't fear

Considering this is a 100+ hour game that's broken up into three parts with three almost completely different storylines, it's almost impossible to have a standalone anime that contains everything. The "true" storyline of F/sn involves drawing your own conclusions from the events that happened in all three scenarios. You can't even begin to hope to have that all in a 24 episode series. So people should really just accept the fact that some characters will get shafted and move on with it.

Considering Saber's development, yeah it may be a little fast but the justification is practiculary being thrown in our faces. Saber says it herself in the most recent episode that Shirou and herself are the same. She shares his dreams and has seen parts of his past (one in particular, the land that was scorched during the last Grail War). Putting the guilt of that together with pseudo-sex and Shirou's want to not let her fight alone is enough of a reason for her to be a little nervous around him.

Yes, she's King Arthur and she should be above this stuff blah blah. But also don't forget the fact that she's still a young girl with the weight of an entire kingdom on her shoulders. Those two in the latest episode didn't look very happy to be submitting themselves to her. I suggest rewatching the episode where Shirou and Saber talk about her wish for the Grail. Doesn't really sound like she had a really nice life, eh? She's still a human with feelings, God forbid she falls in love with someone just like her that wants nothing more then to protect her

Heck, all the characters are getting shafted at this moment. Shirou sounds like an idiot, Saber develops too quickly, Master-Servant relationships aren't being looked into enough, etc. etc.

What the anime needed to do was include more internal dialogue, learn how to pace episodes better, and get a new director. As of right now, people aren't relating to the characters that well, and it looks more like a generic 'enemy of the month' ordeal than an actual, emotional war.

[Shiroth]

I think it depends on which way you look at it - it does look like its just enemy after enemy, but if you understand whats going on then it all makes sense.

Imo, the team are doing a great job with the anime, its just that not everyone's gonna be pleased.

[molitar]

Well I thought it made sense to make Saber more aware of herself as a woman after all that has happened. A very intimate thing happened between them after all with the trace being passed over. They already had a strong bond that is how he saw the dream of Saber but after that event the bond would be very very strong.

My opinion on him not noticing Ilya was sleeping with him. Now their is a very strong bond between him and Saber and Saber is drawing mana from him that is required she doesn't have to eat as much and he is probably suffering some of the deep sleep effect that she tended to have while sleeping. They are sharing each others traits more than before.

The way they swung the sword doesn't even make sense in how they stabbed it into Berserkers waist. That is my complaint about the whole thing it should of from the way they swung it literally just cut him into two. But no it pierces not slashes.. They were not piercing they were slashing.

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by Archer

Heck, all the characters are getting shafted at this moment. Shirou sounds like an idiot, Saber develops too quickly, Master-Servant relationships aren't being looked into enough, etc. etc.

What the anime needed to do was include more internal dialogue, learn how to pace episodes better, and get a new director. As of right now, people aren't relating to the characters that well, and it looks more like a generic 'enemy of the month' ordeal than an actual, emotional war.

Too bad the anime is already complete. You can quit this series if you don't like it that badly.

As for the command lines disappearing on Rin's arm...I guess the command spell is still there, though they're not visible when you don't have a servent? 'cause before Shirou made a pact with Saber, he didn't have the command lines as well--only after summoning(I guess the term summoning here is not accurate enough...) So I guess Rin can make a pact with a lost servent and regain that one last command line? Go Rin kill Shirou and make a pact with Saber!

[gammaoh]

Angelsama, I can't but agree with you once more. Same for Mr.Guy.

For those who really think it's gotten too fast with Saber expressing emotions, I use one of my previous posts and add some more elements to it:

Ep 2: Saber is summoned.

Ep 4: Shirou goes to the front to save Saber and "get killed" for her. As a Servant, I think no one ever cared for her that much. She herself, didn't understand his action.

Ep 5: Shirou is bothered to leave Saber alone all day and decides to introduce her to his friends. Saber, who disagrees at first, is somewhat affected by such concern shown by her Master, whom she does not call Master but Shirou BTW.

Ep 9: She realizes that Shirou is ready to go as far as to fight instead of her.

Ep 10: Their first real chat as something else than Master & Servant. Saber confesses some of her feelings and wishes to Shirou who's touched by her expressions of sadness and regrets.

Ep 11: Their handshake after a scolding, unusually long. They seemed to be sharing something. And Shirou decides to fight alongside her.

Ep 12: Saber decides to risk her life to save Shirou from Rider and Shinji.

Ep 13: Here, the spiritual connection gets really strong since Shirou remains by Saber's side and catches glimpses of her past. When she wakes up, the only thing she cares about is Shirou and even in her current state of weakness, she decides to go and look for him.

Ep 14: They're finally together again.

Ep 15:

-Shirou decides to carry her even if she asks to be left behind
-The recharge scene : Shirou accepts to give away some of his magic circuit (thus, his potential as a magi) to save Saber.
-The recharge scene : Shirou gets "into" Saber's body. They get connected somehow.
-Before the fight : Shirou makes Saber promise him not to use Excalibur again, which shows how much he worries about Saber.
-Before the fight : he grabs her arm to prevent her from falling, you have to take into account that physical contact is very familiar for Japanese and even for Europeans from the Middle Ages.

In ep. 16 :

-Shirou images Saber's lost sword, which makes a greater connection between them.
-Shirou decides to use a Command Spell, thus risking a defeat, to save Saber. He shows her that he chooses her life instead of his.
-Saber witnesses Shirou's past, thus strengthening the spiritual connection.
-Saber sees a very outgoing Ilya... in Shirou's bed. Of course she shouldn't be too worried about a loli, but that loli manages to express things she does not.
+Lolicon are not that rare in Japan... but that's another story
-Saber realizes that she is jealous and that she only considered herself as a fighter rather than a woman, thus, she starts getting a complex with her body being a fighter's, just at the moment she feels the need of seducing Shirou. It's just like the tomboy starting to feel like a girl again...


To be short, I don't think Saber was shown so much concern either as a Servant or even as a King. She devoted herself to be some kind of protector of justice just like Shirou (since "they're the same") but she's full of regrets. As a Servant, she's surprised by how much concern Shirou shows to her, going as far as to carry her and to risk his own life to save hers.

Saber has changed her mind on Shirou since ep.4 when he saved her IMO. Then, her character slowly developed. And her feelings of "friendship" or "brotherhood", whatever you call it, turned slowly into deeper affection then into love.

That's why I really don't understand people saying it's gone too fast. Actually, there were so many hints showing this evolution. This connection has grown faster in the two last episodes because this has to be developed. Had it been any slower and people would have started complaining about how slow these two are to get to it (which people already do actually). Not to mention that Saber has undergone a lot of stress in the last eppy's, from her exhaustion and Shirou's kidnapping to Shirou accepting to give away some of his magic circuit just for her and his Imaging of her sword.

And as Mr.Guy said, she's a young girl that had no chance of being a real girl in her previous life (how can you do so when you're King Arthur, a sort of God of War?). Shirou gives her the occasion, and even asks her, to act like the girl she is.
Hence the fact that Shirou becomes her first "boy" in her eyes. Hence the fact that, having considered herself as a fighter from the very beginning, she doesn't feel like a girl and believes her body is not a girl's. Hence her clumsyness and her not being able to control her emotions. She's not used to it, that is.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Angelsama

I think it depends on which way you look at it - it does look like its just enemy after enemy, but if you understand whats going on then it all makes sense.

Imo, the team are doing a great job with the anime, its just that not everyone's gonna be pleased.

Thats the entertainment business for you.

[Shiroth]

Some nice points there - but still i can't being to understand why people are saying Saber's feeling's are coming along to fast.. i mean, we're on episode 16 now and so much has happened to Shirou & Saber, and everything thats happened points to a relationship.

Right there is where a part of the heart from Fate/Stay night lives, and imo its coming along nicely.

[monster]

Originally Posted by neovu79

Who said he wasn't a magician to begin with?

He did, or at least that's the impression I get from what he said.

[Conri]

Originally Posted by andiyar

Berserker's speech was the highlight of this episode, nice to hear the guy do something other than roar in a gutteral fashion.

I was wondering why Hercules was made into a wordless beast. It would have been nice to see some of this (including the flashback) worked into the show a bit earlier so that his defeat would have had a bit more impact. The flashback could have been expanded upon--it really made me curious about what exactly happened towards the beginning of Ilya and Berserker's relationship.

She's still a human with feelings, God forbid she falls in love with someone just like her that wants nothing more then to protect her

Originally Posted by molitar

Well I thought it made sense to make Saber more aware of herself as a woman after all that has happened. A very intimate thing happened between them after all with the trace being passed over. They already had a strong bond that is how he saw the dream of Saber but after that event the bond would be very very strong.

My problem is many of these things aren't being shown in a way that makes me believe Saber is truly falling in love or makes me feel the emotional impact of the trace being given to Saber. Poorly integrated CG aside, the whole scene with Shirou and the dragon felt disconnected from the very intimacy they should have been trying to convey. I don't feel like I'm being shown Saber's emotional development, I feel like I'm being told to accept it... Only a few episodes ago, Saber was standing naked in front of Shirou completely unaffected, and now she can't even be submerged in a bath in front of him? It's like I teleported from point A (stoic and strong) to point B (blushing and insecure) and am missing a number of the steps inbetween. I don't mind being at point B, but I'd like it to make more sense.

Saber, Saber, Saber. You might be physically stronger than Rin, but you don't much look it. In fact, without the armor and given the height difference and your newfound insecurity, you actually seem a bit more "diminutive." And Shirou, wimping out and saying "That's how it is..."

Ah well, I'm not watching FSN for the romance. I'm very interested in what happens next, particularly concerning Sakura. I still want to know why Shinji had a book instead of proper command spells. Also, I'm getting more and more interested in trying the game itself sometime..

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by monstert

He did, or at least that's the impression I get from what he said.

He mean't not the style of magician for the task at hand.