Senkaku/Diaoyu/Tiaoyutai/Pinnacle Islands dispute

[LeoXiao]

@LeoXiao,

An interesting batch of speculation aside, I was actually assuming that aohige was saying that an alternate-history ROC government in China would behave any better towards the Senkaku issue than the present PRC does. And I'm pretty sure you're as aware as I am, that any Chinese government regardless of its stripe will cling pretty hard to the "One under Heaven" Manifest Destiny mindset, which means that a dominant ROC would probably be just as expansionist as the present PRC.

So, everything you said was interesting, but... not really what I was talking about.

Ah...well that's sort of embarrassing of me, but hey it was a good excuse to get my opinions out yet again. It may be repetitive of me, but I think it's relevant to any thread that involves China and especially when people still post this kind of thing:

Originally Posted by Seitsuki

I would have thought Taiwan only became how it is now because of the need to turn to the West as an ally against the immediate menace in the East (well geographically West but..). From what I know of history during the middle of WW2 and it's aftermath, both sides were pretty terrible really..

Saying both sides were terrible is like saying both sides were terrible in the America vs Japan part of WW2 because the Americans firebombed and nuked Japanese cities. It be may true but it's irrelevant since the whole point is that one side was more terrible than and therefore less preferable to the other.

Originally Posted by Murakami Haruki

As I said earlier, I am in no position to state my opinion on the removal of Japanese authors' works from Chinese bookstores. That is strictly a domestic Chinese issue.

As much as I respect the man's intent, he is too forgiving. As if the Chinese (most likely government) who caused this to become an international issue in the first place would listen to him. I agree with him that Japan shouldn't retaliate, but it should not hesitate to point out facts and condemn the criminal idiocy that is going on.

[MakubeX2]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

As much as I respect the man's intent, he is too forgiving. As if the Chinese (most likely government) who caused this to become an international issue in the first place would listen to him. I agree with him that Japan shouldn't retaliate, but it should not hesitate to point out facts and condemn the criminal idiocy that is going on.

I think what Murakami meant that, for people like us, we should let the politicians bicker it out between themselves and not fall for their words and get personally involved. What we can do is to treat everything like a movie, grab some popcorns and soda and watch everything play itself out from the sidelines.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by MakubeX2

I think what Murakami meant that, for people like us, we should let the politicians bicker it out between themselves and not fall for their words and get personally involved. What we can do is to treat everything like a movie, grab some popcorns and soda and watch everything play itself out from the sidelines.

But that's.... pretty much exactly what Japan is doing. As always.
It's someone else's (government, etc) problem, not his/hers.

Only the vocal online rightwingers are voicing opinionative rants from the comfort of their rooms, majority are "meh, I'm too busy workin' and thinking what I'm gonna have dinner tonight, and how to hit on that girl down the office"

[PzIVf3]

With East Asian Missile Defense, U.S. Sends a Clear Message to China

By Yogesh Joshi, on 26 Sep 2012, Briefing

The U.S. and Japan recently concluded an agreement to expand their joint missile defense program by installing a new X-Band radar in southern Japan, in addition to the one already located in Shiriki, Japan. Reports also suggest that the U.S. is looking to deploy another of these highly intrusive and sensitive systems somewhere in Southeast Asia, further complementing the missile-defense capabilities of Aegis-equipped U.S. warships that patrol international waters in the region. Combined, the developments suggest that the U.S. intends to build a string of missile defense systems around the arc of the South China Sea.

Read more
http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/a...ssage-to-china

[PzIVf3]

USS George Washington, USS John C. Stennis Carrier Strike Groups Patrol Western Pacific

USS George Washington, USS John C. Stennis Carrier Strike Groups Patrol Western Pacific

Navy News Service

Story Number: NNS120929-01
9/29/2012

By Mass Communication Specialist Seaman Kelby Sanders, U.S. 7th Fleet Public Affairs

YOKOSUKA, Japan (NNS) -- YOKOSUKA, Japan - Two of the U.S. Navy's global force aircraft carrier strike groups (CSGs) are currently conducting operations in the vital Asia-Pacific region.

Ships of the forward-deployed George Washington CSG, to include the aircraft carrier USS George Washington (CVN 73), its embarked air wing, Carrier Air Wing (CVW) 5, the guided missile cruiser USS Cowpens (CG 63) and the guided missile destroyer USS McCampbell (DDG 85); coupled with the ships of the John C. Stennis CSG, to include the Bremerton, Wash.-based aircraft carrier USS John C. Stennis (CVN 74), its embarked CVW 9, and the San Diego-based guided-missile cruiser USS Mobile Bay (CG 53); are currently patrolling the Western Pacific. They are providing a combat-ready force that protects and defends the collective maritime interest of the United States and its allies and partners

Read more
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...0929-nns01.htm

No reaction from the Chinese media.

[Tom Bombadil]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

As much as I respect the man's intent, he is too forgiving. As if the Chinese (most likely government) who caused this to become an international issue in the first place would listen to him. I agree with him that Japan shouldn't retaliate, but it should not hesitate to point out facts and condemn the criminal idiocy that is going on.

I don't know how much you are brain washed to be an anti-Chinese warrior, but at least get your fact straight. Ever since the fare-up in 2010 calmed down, it was pretty peaceful last year. The current mess was first brought up by Ishihara and his agenda to buy the islands. The Chinese policy was to shelf the dispute, but it was impossible in both situations (to prosecute the Chinese captain using Japanese law in 2010, and to buy the islands this year), there is no space to maneuver for the Chinese except direct confrontation.

As a comparison, previously when a Chinese boat strayed to the islands, the Japanese will confiscate the boat or put a fine, but the people on it would be deported immediately. This way, both sides save face, the Japanese can say they did guard the territory, the Chinese will put out some empty words as protest and say they fulfilled its obligation to protect the Chinese citizen since they get the people back. But what's different was there was a new party in Tokyo. Track record of this party now includes failed campaign promise to move the US base, bend over to Chinese pressure in 2010, and blown up nuclear reactors in 2011. Oh yes, let's not forget a finance minister who killed himself and an ambassador who died mysteriously before taking his position. I expect a lot more for this party in the future.

[LeoXiao]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

I don't know how much you are brain washed to be an anti-Chinese warrior, but at least get your fact straight. Ever since the fare-up in 2010 calmed down, it was pretty peaceful last year. The current mess was first brought up by Ishihara and his agenda to buy the islands. The Chinese policy was to shelf the dispute, but it was impossible in both situations (to prosecute the Chinese captain using Japanese law in 2010, and to buy the islands this year), there is no space to maneuver for the Chinese except direct confrontation.

That's retarded. Just give Japan the freaking islands already, or at most make some condemnation. The Chinese didn't have to flare up a bunch of protests for it. Xinhua could've reported on other things and nobody would've cared about some tiny islands.

As a comparison, previously when a Chinese boat strayed to the islands, the Japanese will confiscate the boat or put a fine, but the people on it would be deported immediately. This way, both sides save face, the Japanese can say they did guard the territory, the Chinese will put out some empty words as protest and say they fulfilled its obligation to protect the Chinese citizen since they get the people back. But what's different was there was a new party in Tokyo. Track record of this party now includes failed campaign promise to move the US base, bend over to Chinese pressure in 2010, and blown up nuclear reactors in 2011. Oh yes, let's not forget a finance minister who killed himself and an ambassador who died mysteriously before taking his position. I expect a lot more for this party in the future.

And all this has what to do with China and Diaoyudao? Surely they can still issue the "empty words of protest" as before, instead of burn Japanese cars and shops that were helping their own economy.

Also, I am not an anti-Chinese warrior, but one who opposes the CCP as much as the average German opposes Nazism. Get the "CCP=China" notion out of your head.

[Tom Bombadil]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

Also, I am not an anti-Chinese warrior, but one who opposes the CCP as much as the average German opposes Nazism. Get the "CCP=China" notion out of your head.

Probably 汪精卫 said something similar in the past. For somebody who can't tell where the Chinese interest lies, you are pretty convincing. By the way, if the Diaoyu island is a CCP problem, then why is ROC (Taiwan) is claiming it as well, or do you have such a short memory that you have already forgot the water cannon fight?

And all this has what to do with China and Diaoyudao? Surely they can still issue the "empty words of protest" as before,

You know, before the 1962 Chinese-India war started, the Chinese side actually tried to persuade the Indians that both sides should back off 20 kilometers. They didn't listen. The previous way of handling the island dispute fall inline with this logic, that both sides take a step back to avoid confrontation. Now the Japanese side tried to assert their claim while ignoring the Chinese one, why should the Chinese take a step back and make compromise? Do you think the Chinese are followers of the bible, that when somebody slaps you on one face, you offer the other one as well?

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

That's retarded. Just give Japan the freaking islands already, or at most make some condemnation. The Chinese didn't have to flare up a bunch of protests for it. Xinhua could've reported on other things and nobody would've cared about some tiny islands.

so you want to censor the news then?

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

Also, I am not an anti-Chinese warrior, but one who opposes the CCP as much as the average German opposes Nazism.

Careful when writing this. If it wasn't for a twist of fate, Hitler would have died in that bombing in 1944 and Operation Valkyrie would have been a full success. In other words, I don't believe in no-win situations for people going against their own government when the latter abuses the people.

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

USS George Washington, USS John C. Stennis Carrier Strike Groups Patrol Western Pacific

USS George Washington, USS John C. Stennis Carrier Strike Groups Patrol Western Pacific

Navy News Service

Story Number: NNS120929-01
9/29/2012

By Mass Communication Specialist Seaman Kelby Sanders, U.S. 7th Fleet Public Affairs

YOKOSUKA, Japan (NNS) -- YOKOSUKA, Japan - Two of the U.S. Navy's global force aircraft carrier strike groups (CSGs) are currently conducting operations in the vital Asia-Pacific region.

Ships of the forward-deployed George Washington CSG, to include the aircraft carrier USS George Washington (CVN 73), its embarked air wing, Carrier Air Wing (CVW) 5, the guided missile cruiser USS Cowpens (CG 63) and the guided missile destroyer USS McCampbell (DDG 85); coupled with the ships of the John C. Stennis CSG, to include the Bremerton, Wash.-based aircraft carrier USS John C. Stennis (CVN 74), its embarked CVW 9, and the San Diego-based guided-missile cruiser USS Mobile Bay (CG 53); are currently patrolling the Western Pacific. They are providing a combat-ready force that protects and defends the collective maritime interest of the United States and its allies and partners

Read more
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...0929-nns01.htm

No reaction from the Chinese media.

Suddenly, the Chinese government has nothing to say now? It's not everyday that you have 2 Nimitz-class carriers arriving your way alongside their entire strike groups in support, and that's probably the last thing the PRC needed was to hear about that right now.

[willx]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

Suddenly, the Chinese government has nothing to say now? It's not everyday that you have 2 Nimitz-class carriers arriving your way alongside their entire strike groups in support, and that's probably the last thing the PRC needed was to hear about that right now.

You are aware that China has been spending the last several decades developing long range tactical missiles called "carrier killers" right? In conjunction with the usage of submarine warfare?

http://defensetech.org/2010/12/28/ch...e-operational/

At the end of the day, this is all about force projection and zones of control, let's not stand on soap boxes and hoot and hollar in joy when we're talking about the deployment of military assets that are meant to further political policy. Ultimately, this will all be decided in the realm of politics, even regarding whether to "pull the trigger" as it were.

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

I don't consider purely "defensive" reprisals as being brutal,

Just because someone is expected to respond does not mean they would not go overboard in their responses. That being said, for the Jeju Uprising in particular, I would blame the rebel leaders more for the bloody outcome.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by willx

You are aware that China has been spending the last several decades developing long range tactical missiles called "carrier killers" right? In conjunction with the usage of submarine warfare?

http://defensetech.org/2010/12/28/ch...e-operational/

If you think that militarily speaking, the missiles even the table for China against USN carrier groups...they don't.

Even if you ignore the layers of defences the battle groups have, there's the simple issue of targeting a ship taking evasive action on open sea with what amounts to an IRBM.

Or the fact that any such missile launch won't come as a surprise seeing how china is permanently under satellite and radar monitoring

[Ithekro]

That and supposedly the missiles aren't even ready yet. The AP reportedly said 2020 for deployment if the things even work.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

If you think that militarily speaking, the missiles even the table for China against USN carrier groups...they don't.

Even if you ignore the layers of defences the battle groups have, there's the simple issue of targeting a ship taking evasive action on open sea with what amounts to an IRBM.

Or the fact that any such missile launch won't come as a surprise seeing how china is permanently under satellite and radar monitoring

This.

All ships are equipped with Phalanx CIWS and satellites would pick up signals if missiles are launched. This ain't the same kind of situation as in the Falklands War at all now. Ithekro has a point too: we don't even know if their stuff would work at all. Another example would be that even though it is said the Chinese supposedly stole the secrets of the Russian T-50 PAK-FA, the Russians are still laughing about this by saying that the stealth fighter isn't about to be that damn good at all (according to General Alexander Zelin and Ilya Kramnik).

I'm just saying that I'm surprised the PRC hasn't issued a statement yet about the presence of the GW, the Johnny Reb and their escorts in the area. The PRC would complain all day long when Japanese ships are in some areas and yet they don't say a single thing about this... go figure.

[Ithekro]

Well the ships have to get to an area the Chinese would complain about first. If they setup shop near the Senkaku Islands, then the Chinese will cause a fuss over it as they see those as Chinese waters. If the American carriers setup shop near any of the disputed island groups, it will probably raise a fuss (save for maybe if the Americans setup near Taiwan, but not between Taiwan and China). Just being in the general area between Japan and Guam isn't going to cause the Chinese to throw a political fit.

That reminds me...USS Enterprise should be heading for home soon from her last Persian Gulf/Arabian Sea tour.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

As a comparison, previously when a Chinese boat strayed to the islands, the Japanese will confiscate the boat or put a fine, but the people on it would be deported immediately. This way, both sides save face, the Japanese can say they did guard the territory, the Chinese will put out some empty words as protest and say they fulfilled its obligation to protect the Chinese citizen since they get the people back. But what's different was there was a new party in Tokyo. Track record of this party now includes failed campaign promise to move the US base, bend over to Chinese pressure in 2010, and blown up nuclear reactors in 2011. Oh yes, let's not forget a finance minister who killed himself and an ambassador who died mysteriously before taking his position. I expect a lot more for this party in the future.

Not following your line of logic, unless you're saying Japan is deliberately doing something to hide the failures of the DPJ.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

That reminds me...USS Enterprise should be heading for home soon from her last Persian Gulf/Arabian Sea tour.

It's still out there? I thought they would have decommissioned the Enterprise by now.

[monsta666]

As an outsider looking in I think it is madness that two economic powerhouses of Japan and China would go to war over some small island. What is in it for the winners? The most valuable resource in the island is oil I believe and it is my thought there are about 20 million barrels worth in there. Even if we make a generous assumption and say it is 200 million that is not enough to justify a war.

Me thinks this is just a lot of chest thumping and grandstanding. Nothing that significant will come from this, maybe some trade restrictions but not more. I think going forward China is more likely to get into a war with India or some other neighbour over water resources but that is another chapter...

[Sumeragi]

Define war. Full-scale total war, or a limited regional war like the Falklands?