AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Retired M-Z > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-02-17, 16:16   Link #31901
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Okay, I was reading Ep 7 chap 18 in which Clair appears for the first time and I've noticed something interesting. When Will declares he solved everything and Clair supposedly joins him and Bern 'she' is represented merely as a dark silhouette.
At first I didn't pay it much attention but then, looking carefully, I could see that wasn't Clair as she's clearly wearing the maid outfit, not Clair's clothes. In fact you can see the sleves are different from Clair's and also the shirt is the same as the one of Shannon's maid uniform and there's that sort of cravat she wear as well.

However she's not Shannon as her hair as clearly long, nearly waist lenght to be exact She's not wearing the maid hat though.

We don't see much more of her as, when Furfur and Zepar's show starts she's replaced by Clair.

However from the little I could see I would say that her look matches with the one of child Yasu whose pictures were shown time ago.
Meaning probably that was truly Yasu's true look and not just Yasu's idealization of her look or something as I admit I've suspected it was.
Now... in all the pics of child Yasu I saw so far her face was always partially hidden by her fringe so I wonder if it'll be ever show and if this will have some impact on the plot of the manga, meaning it'll be different in some points.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-17, 18:28   Link #31902
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
I kind of doubt it.

There's never been anything in the plot to suggest that there was anything notable about her appearance at all, outside of perhaps a general smallness / frailty. And as we've discussed before, she isn't any more canon-blonde than Battler and Eva are canon-gingers.

I mean, I find their decision to design her that way kinda odd, probably to keep a visual parallel with Lion, I guess, but ... eh, whatevs.
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-17, 19:48   Link #31903
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I kind of doubt it.

There's never been anything in the plot to suggest that there was anything notable about her appearance at all, outside of perhaps a general smallness / frailty. And as we've discussed before, she isn't any more canon-blonde than Battler and Eva are canon-gingers.

I mean, I find their decision to design her that way kinda odd, probably to keep a visual parallel with Lion, I guess, but ... eh, whatevs.
I'm not referring just to the hair colour given to her, which might be fictional in the same way as most of the cast hair colour is, but at the fact her look isn't exactly Shannon's.

I was expecting Yasu and Shannon to have matching looks as grown up as they're sharing the same body or her to be represented always by Clair or her not to be showed or even her to be represented by Beatrice but that's not the case. She's given her own look.

It makes me wonder if there's a meaning to this because giving her a look and one different from Shannon as grown up wasn't necessary.

Add to this no one seems to notice that Kanon has exactly the same face as Shannon and his hair not only are of different colour but also cut slightly differently as if the two were supposed to look like different people even in the eyes of Jessica or the other servants like Gohda (which I've always found absurd) and I wonder if despite the fact Yasu, Shannon and Kanon share the same body in the games, they're drawn differently because in Prime they weren't the same.

But this would open up dozen of new problems so I'm really curious about how the manga will develop things.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-17, 20:07   Link #31904
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 39
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I was expecting Yasu and Shannon to have matching looks as grown up as they're sharing the same body or her to be represented always by Clair or her not to be showed or even her to be represented by Beatrice but that's not the case. She's given her own look.

It makes me wonder if there's a meaning to this because giving her a look and one different from Shannon as grown up wasn't necessary.
I would rather say that this, along with her being portrayed as an actual character from chapter 18 onward, hints largely towards what some people already put out there, an original Shannon existed on Rokkenjima sometime during the mid to late 70s.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-17, 20:22   Link #31905
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I would rather say that this, along with her being portrayed as an actual character from chapter 18 onward, hints largely towards what some people already put out there, an original Shannon existed on Rokkenjima sometime during the mid to late 70s.
The problem is that Shannon look should be known even out of Rokkenjima.
She went to school, she likely figured in photos taken during schooltrips and for the school album.
So her look has to be the one of the Shannon of 1986. Even if there was another Shannon prior to her (which would cause 2 Shannon to be on Rokkenjima at a certain point or Yasu to switch her name from whatever-on to Shannon once the first Shannon left) the look of the Shannon of 1986 must be genuine and likely ended up on the news.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-17, 20:35   Link #31906
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Well there was that "Shanon" that shared her mystery novel experiences with Battler. And as far as I know that was not only the last year Battler was present on Rokkenjima. In one of the games Shanon and George even talk about Battler and Shanon having had a "quite close relationship".

I guess there is enough evidence to conclude that "Shanon" existed BEFORE 1980.


Or did I just completly miss the point?
__________________
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-17, 21:12   Link #31907
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Well there was that "Shanon" that shared her mystery novel experiences with Battler. And as far as I know that was not only the last year Battler was present on Rokkenjima. In one of the games Shanon and George even talk about Battler and Shanon having had a "quite close relationship".

I guess there is enough evidence to conclude that "Shanon" existed BEFORE 1980.


Or did I just completly miss the point?
I think that haguruma meant the Shannon we assumed was an immaginary friend was actually a real person and that Yasu afterward took her name or something.
Alternatively I could also have missed his point...

Interesting enough, assuming that the original Yasu was a long haired fictional blonde the fact that she 'handed' her hair to Beato might merely mean she cut her hair.
While for us it wouldn't mean much in Japan hair cutting can also be more symbolic.
It would also sort of seal her trasformation into another person, Shannon...

Hum... I'm really curious to see how the manga will develop all this.
In E 7 when Yasu is a kid Shannon is represented as a girl definitevely older than her... but she's supposed to be around Battler's age when Battler is 12 and therefore younger... so I wonder if when Yasu will become white Beato Shannon will... rejuvenate... or the manga will deal with the whole thing differently...
I would bet for the rejuvenation thing as the manga already showed a young Shannon in Ep 6.

Still, I find that giving adult Yasu her own look was an interesting choice and I'm curious to see if it will lead to something or not.

AHHH! I want to know what Battler tells Shannon in Ep 8! (it'll probably won't be important but stil...)
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-18, 00:05   Link #31908
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
I'm still really annoyed at the insinuation that Yasu would resemble Beatrice in any meaningful way, considering that the whole point in building Beatrice to be his fantasy woman was because she herself wasn't.

And as Renall and I have analyzed once upon a time, Yasu probably resembles Kanon the most, hairwise.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-18, 07:33   Link #31909
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 39
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And as Renall and I have analyzed once upon a time, Yasu probably resembles Kanon the most, hairwise.
Yes, that would still be the most reasonable way, or at least something close to Kanon that could be solved with cutting your hair short. The manga doesn't really imply anything in these few pictures concerning hair color or any closer features. I think if anybody on the project would actually try and make the implication that it is reasonable for Yasu to look like Beatrice in the flesh, it'd be baffling.

Yes, we should take Kinzo's "You look just like her in that gown, with that hair" into account, but it is not unlikely that this was after Genji and probably Kumasawa nicened her up for the event. If she'd look like Beatrice all the time, Kinzo would have guessed a lot earlier. She probably resembles her mother and grandmother in regards to facial features, not even counting that her mother is also her half-sister, but being the technically 3rd generation, the Italian influences should have pretty much gone away. It's not unlikely that her mother had dark blond hair, if Castiglioni was very blond, but in most cases even mixed ethnicity Japanese children tend to look slightly Japanese.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-18, 09:48   Link #31910
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The problem is that Shannon look should be known even out of Rokkenjima.
She went to school, she likely figured in photos taken during schooltrips and for the school album.
So her look has to be the one of the Shannon of 1986. Even if there was another Shannon prior to her (which would cause 2 Shannon to be on Rokkenjima at a certain point or Yasu to switch her name from whatever-on to Shannon once the first Shannon left) the look of the Shannon of 1986 must be genuine and likely ended up on the news.
What look? The stories don't have pictures. The story mentions a "Shannon." If indeed there was a "Shannon" known to exist among the servants on duty in 1986, then people might assume what she'd look like based upon descriptions of her, but we have no idea if their conception of Shannon or Kanon is anything close to any sort of reality.

Of course, if haguruma is correct and there was a "Shannon model" in the 1970s, then it's possible the image we have of Shannon is actually the physical appearance of the model servant, and that Yasu's attempts to create a more feminine "Shannon" persona, if at all, probably didn't look exactly the same way. But really, who knows.

Kanon as the basis seems the most likely because in costuming it's easier to be additive than reductive. That is, breasts are easier to fake through padding than they are to hide through binding, and hair is easier to make longer and a different color through wigs than to make long hair appear shorter. Slap a dress and a wig on Kanon and maybe Kinzo actually would notice a resemblance... although I personally suspect he would've "seen a resemblance" no matter who ended up brought before him, because he was nuts.

But the point is if the appearances of the characters are even remotely close to correct, and perhaps they're not, Kanon is the most likely "baseline." Short, dark hair and a boyish/androgynous figure would certainly not draw a lot of second glances from other Japanese people, so Yasu would only really be noticeable when trying to be through a costume.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-18, 15:05   Link #31911
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
What look? The stories don't have pictures. The story mentions a "Shannon." If indeed there was a "Shannon" known to exist among the servants on duty in 1986, then people might assume what she'd look like based upon descriptions of her, but we have no idea if their conception of Shannon or Kanon is anything close to any sort of reality.

Of course, if haguruma is correct and there was a "Shannon model" in the 1970s, then it's possible the image we have of Shannon is actually the physical appearance of the model servant, and that Yasu's attempts to create a more feminine "Shannon" persona, if at all, probably didn't look exactly the same way. But really, who knows.

Kanon as the basis seems the most likely because in costuming it's easier to be additive than reductive. That is, breasts are easier to fake through padding than they are to hide through binding, and hair is easier to make longer and a different color through wigs than to make long hair appear shorter. Slap a dress and a wig on Kanon and maybe Kinzo actually would notice a resemblance... although I personally suspect he would've "seen a resemblance" no matter who ended up brought before him, because he was nuts.

But the point is if the appearances of the characters are even remotely close to correct, and perhaps they're not, Kanon is the most likely "baseline." Short, dark hair and a boyish/androgynous figure would certainly not draw a lot of second glances from other Japanese people, so Yasu would only really be noticeable when trying to be through a costume.
The stories don't have pictures but the news probably searched for pictures of the people who died on Rokkenjima and showed them on the news.
Now I don't know if there were pictures of Kanon out of Rokkenjima that the news could dig up. I doubt the Fukuin kept them and it's never said Kanon continued his studies like Shannon did.

Maybe someone had a camera and took a picture of him at the school festival which, if he was dressed as showed, might not show much. Maybe. I wouldn't bet on it.

Shannon however should have pictures of her out of Rokkenjima that the news or the police could dig up.
She attended to school so she likely figured in group pictures and it seems in Japanese schools there's something that sort of a school album with all the students' pictures.

Add to this that she might have ended in pictures taken by her classmates during schooltrips or in other moments and you've a serious chance to get a Shannon's picture.
In addition according to the story Shannon was Yasu's first official 'identity'. I would have expected her not to need to disguise herself as Shannon as she's expected to be Shannon.
Sure, she wore padded bra but likely at first it wasn't supposed to be a disguise, just a way to make herself prettier.

Kanon instead had birth later and she needed people to think he was a different person from her. So, although her body likely was Kanon-like and not Shannon-like her face and hairstyle should have been the ones of Shannon, not Kanon.

Of course it's possible that since there's likely pictures of Shannon but there can be a lack of them for Kanon, Kanon's look out of Rokkenjima was created using other sources, for example people describing him orally.
Let's assume the other maids knew he existed but were never on his shift and the only source used to describe Kanon were the people at the school festival (since they're the only one Jessica used as proof that Kanon existed and she doesn't mention other servants).
They could have failed to notice he looked like Shannon as they didn't really get to look at him well and reported a description of him that was vague and created an impression of difference between him and Shannon that wasn't really there.

Maybe the news even showed an attempt to make an identikit of him that, instead than helping to recognize he was Shannon, created even more the idea he looked different from her.

So it can really be that the Kanon look we know isn't actually Kanon's real look but what people was lead to think it was his look according to the info they got.

Anyway Umineko's weak point is the care about how characters look.

Honestly the first time I've heard the ShKanon's theory in my mind I shot it down with an 'absurd, if this was true people like Jessica or Gohda or even Battler should have noticed Kanon and Shannon have the same face even if they're not related, there should be a hint about them looking the same despite not being brothers!' but, as we all know, Umineko didn't bother at all with those 'trivialities' and made ShKanon the right theory.

It even let Erika canonically wander around the game board with blue hair Bern gave her without anyone noticing... (and shouldn't this mean out of the gameboard, in Prime, her hair was different? Maybe look on the gameboard is really made up on the spot for some characters...)
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-18, 15:33   Link #31912
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Again though, what you're saying may well be true, except:

1) Meta-Battler doesn't have access to that information.
2) We don't have access to that information.
3) The people of R-Prime do not have access to the meta-information that Meta-Battler/we have access to.

Therefore, what Shannon looks like is based entirely on what is presented to Battler. He's the only person who could notice anything wrong, and the entire way the system is set up he can't do that.

We do know where the genesis of the ideas came from, however. If anything, I think that makes the "Shannon model" thing a bit more likely since I could see Beatrice trying to intentionally dissociate Shannon and Kanon a bit by giving one of them the appearance of a person upon whom Shannon was "based," while Kanon is more reflective of her actual appearance and Beatrice reflects an ideal (and the portrait).

The point is, some meta-entity based upon Yasu is feeding data to some meta-entity based upon Battler, except each might not actually be the other, and we don't have any way to verify these facts actually match up with "reality." So what any given character physically looks like is largely going to be based on faith unless somebody actually provides information about them to suggest their appearance was meaningfully different in a way that a person in the story can recognize. Nobody did... but then again, nobody who might have done so was ever mentioned either.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-18, 17:12   Link #31913
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Again though, what you're saying may well be true, except:

1) Meta-Battler doesn't have access to that information.
2) We don't have access to that information.
3) The people of R-Prime do not have access to the meta-information that Meta-Battler/we have access to.

Therefore, what Shannon looks like is based entirely on what is presented to Battler. He's the only person who could notice anything wrong, and the entire way the system is set up he can't do that.
It really depend on what Meta-Battler is.
If Meta Battler is an inner projection of Tohya (or whatever you want to call him) it can be he doesn't have such a clear memory of Shannon and Kanon and that their look in his mind is mostly based on what the news showed.
After all he saw Kanon and Shannon for how long? And how much time ago? It would be pretty normal that their look would be blurred in his mind and that pictures shown by the news would superimpose on their real look.

If Meta Battler is an inner projection of Ange (or whatever you want to call him) as she read the tales and pictures her brother fighting the witch it's even more likely she would be influenced by the media in picturing Shannon and Kanon in her mind.

Whatever we see in the gameboard is filtered through Battler's eyes (or Ange in some cases) so that we can even see magic battles if they think they're seeing one.

Of course if Meta Battler is something entirely different, all bets are open.

There's to say however that Meta Battler doesn't seem to have knowledge of what had really happened in Prime. He's taken straight from the first gameboard so I don't even know if he can have memories of how Shannon and Kanon really looked beyond what was said/showed/whatever in the first gameboard.

If we go by this for Meta Battler the Prime that contained his real travel on Rokkenjima doesn't exist (at least at first... no idea if he remembered it at the end of the 5th game) so even his memory of Gohda can be wrong (not that it matters so I'll assume Gohda is as he remembers).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The point is, some meta-entity based upon Yasu is feeding data to some meta-entity based upon Battler, except each might not actually be the other, and we don't have any way to verify these facts actually match up with "reality." So what any given character physically looks like is largely going to be based on faith unless somebody actually provides information about them to suggest their appearance was meaningfully different in a way that a person in the story can recognize. Nobody did... but then again, nobody who might have done so was ever mentioned either.
We clash in this problem for stuff even more important than the characters' looks. I mean there's a whole huge load of info that Battler get to know in the tales, starting from how Kinzo found the gold to what happened to Beatrice 2 and continuing with a lot of stuffs about Yasu's life and fantasies or Kyrie's past and how he's not Asumu's son (but there's also Kinzo's past with Genji) that somehow he's fed with.

Do the game provided him those informations due to a connection with someone in Prime? and if that's the case how reliable they are anyway?

In the past we've questioned nearly all of them. The submarine's story, if the gold really was on Rokkenjima and how big it was, if Yasu was really Beato 2's kid or she merely believed it or she was made to believe it, if Natsuhi really pushed the servant or the servant fell on her own and Natsuhi felt so guilty she believed she was the one to blame... and other stuffs I can't remember.

Shannon & Kanon's look and therefore Yasu's real look is really minor in comparison to all the stuffs the plot fed us with and again, unless in the manga something will be revealed, I doubt we'll know the truth.

However the fact that the manga is actually touching this point make me think it can plan to reveal something otherwise... why to raise the issue?
Yasu could have very well looked like Clair/Shannon/Kanon/Beato from the beginning. No need to give her a look of her own when the novel already provided her a cover in form of Clair.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-18, 23:52   Link #31914
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 39
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
She attended to school so she likely figured in group pictures and it seems in Japanese schools there's something that sort of a school album with all the students' pictures.
I doubt that a middle school or high school in Nijima would actually produce a year book in the early 1980's, but yes, there should at least be a commemoration photograph of the class at the very end of each year and it was a time where people actually would already take pictures on a daily basis.
Yet, what does that prove? The only alive people who could have commented on the Shannon who was on Rokkenjima on October 4th and 5th 1986 are a mad woman who's stalked by paparazzi and an amnesiac with a head injury. The one would not comment on whether this was the Shannon from the stories, the other probably could not.

Quote:
In addition according to the story Shannon was Yasu's first official 'identity'. I would have expected her not to need to disguise herself as Shannon as she's expected to be Shannon.
But that's the question, isn't it?
Going by the story told in EP7, Shannon is exactly NOT who people saw her as. Shannon was a model servant who finished her chores and kept a smiling face, Yasu was too clumsy to even keep her own set of keys together. So Yasu became a witch and left to the golden land, but somebody needed to stay, because the person him/herself couldn't actually just go away and live there, this slot became filled with Shannon, the ideal servant.

I think on that level Ryukishi at least meant for the scenes to be taken more symbolic than real. Yasu-Shannon probably didn't look exactly like the original Shannon, but modeled that look after her; like if somebody is a huge fan of a person and tries imitating clothes, hairstyle and manner of speaking. That is actually something that people do, so I wouldn't be surprised.

Quote:
Honestly the first time I've heard the ShKanon's theory in my mind I shot it down with an 'absurd, if this was true people like Jessica or Gohda or even Battler should have noticed Kanon and Shannon have the same face even if they're not related, there should be a hint about them looking the same despite not being brothers!' but, as we all know, Umineko didn't bother at all with those 'trivialities' and made ShKanon the right theory.
The problem is, Gohda likely knew from a certain point on and I wouldn't be surprised if Jessica knew as well and the truth we are supposed to draw from the stories is a lot more messed up than "ingenious disguise fooled everybody", yet Battler could have easily been tricked, as he only knew Kanon for 1 1/2 days at most (depending on wen Kanon 'vanished').
And depending on how much a disguised Yasu would invest into said disguise, you could fool somebody for that amount of time. Just take a look at something like this
Spoiler for picture:
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-19, 05:33   Link #31915
GoldenLand
Eaten by goats
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
If there was a real non-Yasu person with the servant name of Shannon at some point, it might be the case that only she and the other servants around the same time as her would know it. This might have reached the media on Rokkenjima Prime, or might not. The Anges we saw never mentioned it, but then, there must have been a lot of extremely relevant information that Ange must have and yet we never saw. Such as about whether Kanon was ever seen off the island.

The stories themselves (and presumably the message bottles too) don't really go in for much by way of physical descriptions of the characters, so there's no real way to check to see if the "real" Yasu-Shannon looked more like Kanon or Shannon. There isn't actually any reason to suppose that she looked more like the pictures we were shown of Shannon than those of Kanon. But I'm pretty sure that her real appearance won't have been a blonde as in the manga version of her, or had any obvious Italian visual characteristics, although she may well have had long hair.

I think her real appearance could depend a lot on whether Kanon was ever a person she acted out for long. If she never did dress up as Kanon (except maybe at Jessica's school festival? or during the 1985 conference to fool Battler) and try to fool the people living permanently on Rokkenjima, then she could easily have a Kanon haircut as her normal one.

Come to think of it...assuming she really did go to the festival, even if Yasu was no longer going to school at the time of the last conference or so, wouldn't there be a really high chance of people she used to go to school with being students at Jessica's school? If she went along to the festival, going in a disguise other than "ordinary Yasu-Shannon but with no fake boobs and wearing a big coat" would be a good idea, if only to spare Jessica's pride. Because really, why would Jessica invite so much ridicule upon herself as to risk people going "Oh hey, Sayo, it's been ages" to the person introduced as Jessica's boyfriend? Going by that, presumably however the Kanon who went to the festival looked is not the most like her usual appearance.

Last edited by GoldenLand; 2013-02-19 at 11:24. Reason: corrected name
GoldenLand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-19, 09:18   Link #31916
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
There's probably only so many ways you can turn things into servant names in the peculiar manner they do on Rokkenjima. Why couldn't there have been multiple Shannons?

I mean at worst you'd have people who would go "Oh, yeah, there was a Shannon... but that was when I worked there in the 1970s, this must have been a different Shannon." This would be easily backed up by the fact that, you know, Model-Shannon would still be alive somewhere. However, I don't think that would be taken as "proof" that the Shannon of 1986 didn't exist or anything; they'd just assume there was a different person who happened to have that servant name. It can't be that uncommon, especially if two servants working in different years were to have reasonably similar real names. It's not like they retire the names like sports jersey numbers.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-19, 13:28   Link #31917
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I doubt that a middle school or high school in Nijima would actually produce a year book in the early 1980's, but yes, there should at least be a commemoration photograph of the class at the very end of each year and it was a time where people actually would already take pictures on a daily basis.
I'm not a Japanese expert however the school owning a book with all the photo of the students for each year is something like a given in many anime/manga and they handle it like something that had started to be done by quite a lot of time.

Sort of like a record of the students in the school.

Though, of course, I don't know if it's a standard procedure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Yet, what does that prove?
Merely that Shannon's look should have been known with a certain degree of precision since tehre were photo of her. Sure, she could have been wearing padded bras in the photo as well but her facial features should be the same.

Things are different for Kanon as we've no idea if there were pictures of him so to the people of Prime his look could have merely be what Jessica's classmates who saw him at the school celebration told the media.
As, interesting enough, Kanon is shown wearing a coat those collar partially covered his face it can be they didn't manage to take a good look at him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
The only alive people who could have commented on the Shannon who was on Rokkenjima on October 4th and 5th 1986 are a mad woman who's stalked by paparazzi and an amnesiac with a head injury. The one would not comment on whether this was the Shannon from the stories, the other probably could not.
Well, in the beginning Eva wasn't mad or stalked by paparazzi. Also Shannon's classmates could comment about the picture if the news were to spread a picture that's different from the one of Shannon.
But I'm not sure what you mean.
The look of the Shannon in the forgeries was likely never that detailed. probably they contented themselve with saying she was a pretty yet a big clumsy girl whose breasts attracted Battler's interest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Going by the story told in EP7, Shannon is exactly NOT who people saw her as. Shannon was a model servant who finished her chores and kept a smiling face, Yasu was too clumsy to even keep her own set of keys together. So Yasu became a witch and left to the golden land, but somebody needed to stay, because the person him/herself couldn't actually just go away and live there, this slot became filled with Shannon, the ideal servant.
The Shannon of Ep 7 in the beginning seems very much a fantasy creature. She's simply perfect and, although she talks with people they never answer her. If I'm not wrong she's also said to share her room with Yasu yet Yasu had the room all for herself... which means Shannon wasn't really counted like someone different by Yasu by the other servants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
The problem is, Gohda likely knew from a certain point on and I wouldn't be surprised if Jessica knew as well and the truth we are supposed to draw from the stories is a lot more messed up than "ingenious disguise fooled everybody", yet Battler could have easily been tricked, as he only knew Kanon for 1 1/2 days at most (depending on wen Kanon 'vanished').
Jessica knowing the truth would create two possibilities:
- Jessica didn't love Kanon and it was all fantasy
- Jessica knew Shannon was Kanon but loved him/her all the same. Therefore likely Jessica believed Kanon to be a girl and wouldn't expect certain stuffs from him/her as Yasu instead seemed to dread

Gohda knowing the truth would create the following possibilities:
- Gohda would, for unknown reasons, hide the truth to Natsuhi, who's hiring him
- everyone on Rokkenjima is aware Shannon is Kanon, Natsuhi included but they had allowed Shannon to play crossdressing for years for unknwon reasons
- everyone minus Battler is aware that Shannon is Kanon but they're covering it up for unknown reasons

One of the above possibilities is, of course, possible (in fact my theory includes one of the above) but there's no proof beyond 'it's hard to think they didn't notice'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
The stories themselves (and presumably the message bottles too) don't really go in for much by way of physical descriptions of the characters, so there's no real way to check to see if the "real" Yasu-Shannon looked more like Kanon or Shannon. There isn't actually any reason to suppose that she looked more like the pictures we were shown of Shannon than those of Kanon. But I'm pretty sure that her real appearance won't have been a blonde as in the manga version of her, or had any obvious Italian visual characteristics, although she may well have had long hair.
The real problem with details like hair colour are that the visual novel couldn't care less about them. Probably nearly none of the characters had the hair colour we saw but if we accept this it means nearly none of the characters we saw is 'real'. With Yasu's 'real' look I mean the look Yasu would have if she could have a character design of her own. And the manga implied that her character design would include her having long blonde hair with a fringe which makes her different from Shannon that has short brown hair or Kanon that has short dark hair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenLand View Post
Come to think of it...assuming she really did go to the festival, even if Yasu was no longer going to school at the time of the last conference or so, wouldn't there be a really high chance of people she used to go to school with being students at Jessica's school? If she went along to the festival, going in a disguise other than "ordinary Yasu-Shannon but with no fake boobs and wearing a big coat" would be a good idea, if only to spare Jessica's pride. Because really, why would Jessica invite so much ridicule upon herself as to risk people going "Oh hey, Sayo, it's been ages" to the person introduced as Jessica's boyfriend? Going by that, presumably however the Kanon who went to the festival looked is not the most like her usual appearance.
*nods* that would be embarassing... not mentioning Jessica would probably know about her total lack of breasts in addition to knowing she's not male. And she were to pursue him/her regardless not only it would clash with the idea that Jessica supported the George/Shannon relation but would also make her a person who knows a lot about Yasu and yet accept Yasu for how he/she is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
There's probably only so many ways you can turn things into servant names in the peculiar manner they do on Rokkenjima. Why couldn't there have been multiple Shannons?

I mean at worst you'd have people who would go "Oh, yeah, there was a Shannon... but that was when I worked there in the 1970s, this must have been a different Shannon." This would be easily backed up by the fact that, you know, Model-Shannon would still be alive somewhere. However, I don't think that would be taken as "proof" that the Shannon of 1986 didn't exist or anything; they'd just assume there was a different person who happened to have that servant name. It can't be that uncommon, especially if two servants working in different years were to have reasonably similar real names. It's not like they retire the names like sports jersey numbers.
There could have been of course 2 different Shannon but I don't think the Ushiromiya would have want to have 2 Shannon at the same time as it'll be unpractical.

"who did it?"
"Shannon."
"Which one?"

If there was a Shannon that acted as a model this would mean that at some point Yasu switched her name from whatever-on to Shannon. And as names are given, not chosen and it's also said the kids from Fukuin weren't happy with them, I'm not sure she would have been allowed by Natsuhi to do so.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-19, 13:32   Link #31918
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Maybe her name was always Kanon. Or the "model Shannon" wasn't named Shannon, but was just the image of one of the older servants she knew that she tried to emulate along with a "perfect servant" fantasy that she cooked up, with Shannon being her own servant name.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-19, 15:13   Link #31919
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Maybe her name was always Kanon. Or the "model Shannon" wasn't named Shannon, but was just the image of one of the older servants she knew that she tried to emulate along with a "perfect servant" fantasy that she cooked up, with Shannon being her own servant name.
We would have then Battler messing up the names. He would have made a promise not to Shannon but to Kanon.
The irony of Shannon being her ideal look would be that afterward she would return to her prior look as the one she deemed 'ideal'.

Honestly I like to think at it like that.
Real Yasu started as a kid with long hair and a fringe (let's ignore hair colour, we already know it's not relevant in Umineko) that was named Shannon.
She built up a role model who might have or might have not based on a real person (or a bunch of real people as she could have taken the hairstyle from someone, the ability from someone else, the kindness from some other person and so on) and that represents who she thinks she wants to become.
While she works toward it she ends up trying to ignore/change some parts of her to become Shannon instead.
In the end she pushes away whatever she could push away that wasn't fitting of Shannon on Beatrice and pretended those sides of her just left her.
She likely cut her hair so as to signal the change.
However she doesn't feel Shannon. Deep inside her she believes her true self is the one that 'left her to become Beatrice'. In short, deep inside herself she perceived herself still with her previous look, not with Shannon's look.
As in Ep 7 Yasu showed up in a magical scene she showed up with what she perceived was her real look... that's not the one of Shannon... but not the one of Beato either as she knows she's not a witch.

So we've the maid uniform as she knows she's a maid, the flat chest as that's how her body is and the look she had before she began to wear the 'mask' of Shannon, whom she perceived as her true self even if probably it doesn't match anymore with her.

A bit like how Eva-Beatrice still looked like a teenager even if Eva wasn't anymore with the only difference Yasu acknowledged her age as hers... but not her look.

So I'm starting to think the blond Yasu is nothing else but a representation of how Yasu sees herself. Likely blond Yasu and Shannon share the same face so visually it's just a matter of different haircut... but on the psychological level the difference can be as striking as between day and night.

As for Kanon he too shares the same face with Yasu and, therefore with Shannon.
His haircut isn't too different from Shannon but of course the body looks different.

I'll say that since Shannon existed prior to Kanon, if we assume Ep 7 told us something true, when Yasu creaded Kanon she merely changed a bit her hairstyle in a way that wouldn't require haircutting or wearing a wig.

Probably the only time she wore a wig was when she took the role of Beatrice.

Of course the manga can end up proving me wrong and we'll learn that Yasu not only began wearing padded bras when Battler was around 12 if not younger, but she also already wore wigs to hide she was a natural blonde as this was frowned upon. Who knows.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-02-21, 03:55   Link #31920
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
It's pretty clearly indicated that Shannon was a fabricated person from quite early on because:
  • The first set of staky-servants complained about how Yasu had her own room,
  • but in Yasu's first-person narrative she was roommates with Shannon.
Although there is also one odd point in the latter set of staky-servants' ghost stories where Berune mentions both Yasu and Shannon in the same sentence as though they were different people. I'm still not sure what's going on there.
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:29.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.