Madoka Magica - Episode 04 Discussion / Poll

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by Hooves

Well of course my idea is merely a speculation, but if she resetted time herself with her one wish. She loses a chance to obtain anything else she "could" have had, so when she reset time. She has another chance to become a magical girl, there we have Homura who remembers Madoka apparently, and wishes to stop Madoka from suffering all those tragic events in the future from happening again.

Maybe I should just take this to the speculation thread.

Now thinking of it....

I personally oppose to that idea, since it will mean that we are never going to see Madoka's transformation properly. D:

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by applejuice

Now thinking of it....

I personally oppose to that idea, since it will mean that we are never going to see Madoka's transformation properly. D:

Well we are going to see Madoka's transformation eventually, what is the point of her being a main character of a Masou Shoujo series if the main character doesn't have a proper transformation scene?

[Kaijo]

Interesting to consider that if changing reality itself is possible with a wish, then it's highly likely bringing someone back from the dead is possible, as is eliminating all witches and bringing the system down.

In that case, we end up with the idea that this whole thing can be ended with a simple wish.

[Mentar]

Yup, wasting my time. Shortening my reply.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

The wish system, and how no one has brought up whether bringing back Mami with a wish is possible. Nor ending the series right here and now.

Since we have no clue what wishes are possible or not (QB's salesman pitch exaggeration "anything goes" hardly counts in my book), this is completely irrelevant and no plot hole. We simply _don't_ _know_ _yet_.

No, you have it wrong. It's not that no girl wished for it, but that no one even considered it. That's called passing the idiot ball. Even if, for whatever reason, it's not followed through on, it still needs to be addressed.

And that's a plot hole in your brain only because in your world

1) you refuse to acknowledge that the sacrifice for getting this wish is extremely high
2) you refuse to acknowledge that it's perfectly logical to conclude that Madoka's apology to Mami _implies_ that she _has_ considered the wish, but feels too weak to do it

You have been so hardwired on the whole "Mami must be resurrected by a wish" since ep3 that now, that the show did not follow your theory, it automatically became a plot hole. For YOU. Not for those people who were correct.

I don't ignore it at all. Madoka was told from day 1 what a magical girl is all about. Despite that, she still wanted to do it, and now suddenly she doesn't. If it was selfless as you claim, then she should still want to do it. After all, the rationale is still there: she can still help people. Why doesn't she do it, then? Because she doesn't want to risk her life.

She _does_ still want to do it, why do you believe she's been crying a river? She just feels _powerless_. She _cannot_ do it because she's too afraid.

We can go with 9/11 conspiracy theories, too. You know the ones: people who call us fools for not noticing all the signs that point to it being an inside job by the government, order by the illuminati at the behest of aliens. You don't see the signs?

Don't you feel like a fool for that? I made the predictions _before_ they happened, not after. And the same continues here - we analyze what's given to us, speculate what's going to happen, and then see where we were right and wrong. Adjust our theories to what new stuff we learned, and repeat. You did that, and I did that. You were wrong, I was right. It may be reversed next time, though - reading our exchange - I don't think so.

We're not talking about what develops; we're talking about Madoka's motivations. You want to claim Sayaka's as selfish, and Madoka's as selfless, when the facts as they are don't support that. For the record, I can see them as either, but you have to acknowledge that either both are selfish, or that both are selfless, by whatever criteria you use.

I have to? Because you say so? *suppresses a snort*

Let's just wait and see, shall we? The scriptwriter probably tossed Homura's "MGs don't fight for good, they fight for themselves and their wishes" for fun.

I don't know whether your predictions will be correct or not. Frankly, I don't care too much. What I'm talking about, is what is happening now, and what should be addressed in order to make it a good story.

And I was the arrogant one. Words fail me. I'll ask Urobuchi Gen to consult you earlier.

[Seihai]

Originally Posted by Hooves

Well we are going to see Madoka's transformation eventually, what is the point of her being a main character of a Masou Shoujo series if the main character doesn't have a proper transformation scene?

That made me grin, you watched too much Kore wa Zombie Desu ka? Can't get Haruna-chan out of your head I bet. /jk

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Interesting to consider that if changing reality itself is possible with a wish, then it's highly likely bringing someone back from the dead is possible, as is eliminating all witches and bringing the system down.

In that case, we end up with the idea that this whole thing can be ended with a simple wish.

The problem that the girl's don't see of actually wishing for that is greed, desire, wealth, or merely being clumsy-headed that they don't see this as a possibility. Some might not have foreseen the events they were bringing themselves in before the wish, or don't think at all after all the horrors they have seen after witnessing witches up close without being a magical girl yet.

[Xellos-_^]

Everyone, a Moment of Silence for Sayaka.

Either being squish like a bug or have her heart broken and become a witch.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Yup, wasting my time. Shortening my reply.

One could say the same thing about, consider there are still quite a few questions you are dodging. And yet, despite you feel you are wasting your time, you're still responding. Interesting. Note that I actually feel that debates and conversations are worthy goals, and communication can be hard sometimes, so I keep at it. You feel free to do what you wish.

Since we have no clue what wishes are possible or not (QB's salesman pitch exaggeration "anything goes" hardly counts in my book), this is completely irrelevant and no plot hole. We simply _don't_ _know_ _yet_.

Once again, you haven't even looked into The Neverending Story 2 and 3 to learn why this is a bad thing. I'd ask you to even address this, but I predict you won't. Oh, let's watch my prediction come true!

And that's a plot hole in your brain only because in your world

1) you refuse to acknowledge that the sacrifice for getting this wish is extremely high
2) you refuse to acknowledge that it's perfectly logical to conclude that Madoka's apology to Mami _implies_ that she _has_ considered the wish, but feels too weak to do it

Once again, you aren't reading what I said. I hate to have to spell this out again, so please try to pay attention this time. The cost of the wish is irrelevant. Again, I have spelled this out as the way to handle this. They could very easily show Madoka going, "Could I wish Mami back? I might be able to... but then I'd have to fight for the rest of my life, and I can't do that!"

That's all I ask. Consideration. Proof that a logical thought is going through her mind. I don't ask that she follow through on it, which, for some reason, you keep thinking I do.

Your #2 point is pure conjecture. You have no evidence to support it. It could be what she's thinking, but we don't know. This is another point you keep avoiding. Cite your evidence or retract your statement. I predict that you will do neither. Oh hey, I can make accurate predictions, too!

You have been so hardwired on the whole "Mami must be resurrected by a wish" since ep3 that now, that the show did not follow your theory, it automatically became a plot hole. For YOU. Not for those people who were correct.

I will repeat this again, and try to speak it out loud this time: "I only want the concept to be addressed, not that it's possible." For all I know, it IS impossible. Perhaps the wish system is limited.

We don't know. But that's exactly why it should be addressed. Are you familiar with what "elephant in the room" means?

She _does_ still want to do it, why do you believe she's been crying a river? She just feels _powerless_. She _cannot_ do it because she's too afraid.

[citation needed] I predict you will provide none. Because from where I'm standing, she told Kyube "Sorry." That seems to imply she doesn't want to do it.

Don't you feel like a fool for that? I made the predictions _before_ they happened, not after. And the same continues here - we analyze what's given to us, speculate what's going to happen, and then see where we were right and wrong. Adjust our theories to what new stuff we learned, and repeat. You did that, and I did that. You were wrong, I was right. It may be reversed next time, though - reading our exchange - I don't think so.

You're the one making the predictions. Why would I feel like a fool for making none? in fact, I made *none* prior to this episode. You might be confusing me with someone else.

I have to? Because you say so? *suppresses a snort*

You're the one who wants to call Sayaka selfish and Madoka selfless. Considering Sayaka made her wish to help someone, taking on the role of an MG and all that entails, I'd call her wish pretty damn selfless. Note that it was the same wish she was considering before. That implies a greater consideration for other people over herself.

Madoka wanted to be an MG to help people, according to you; and that is partially true. But she doesn't anymore, because she's afraid for herself. That implies a greater consideration for herself, then other people.

Let's just wait and see, shall we? The scriptwriter probably tossed Homura's "MGs don't fight for good, they fight for themselves and their wishes" for fun.

Well, you're the only one making predictions about the show here. I'm not, at least not so much. Anything I toss out is a guess, but I'm not too terribly attached to them. I toss them out mainly as possibilities.

And I was the arrogant one. Words fail me. I'll ask Urobuchi Gen to consult you earlier.

Well, you're the one who wants to insist you're correct. From where I'm standing, you're the arrogant one. I'm only talking about things that have already happened; I tend to work better that way, since I prefer facts.

[Archon_Wing]

Angst central+ monsters that attack the budget. Not bad really. I'm still not too fond of the battle imagery, but the characters are progressing very well. 8/10

Well this sucks. They've been told how horrible this is, but if Sayaka didn't do it, bad shit would happen. I feel really sorry for Madoka, as the pressure is now enormous. If she doesn't get the powers she's helpless against threats she knows is all around. If she does, she's probaly screwed, and now her friend is picking up the slack.

Next episode features a rival that's already out to knock her off. Aye. This show is gonna depress the hell out of me by the end.

[DragoZERO]

Oh man. This is... so crazy. Sayaka is totally dead after her boyfriend will crush her, if we even get that far. I think this new girl will be the one to do it too. We saw a witch do it, now we need another MG, this way Madoka learns about the dangers of both sides.

This is turning out to be great show. I have a feeling I will be a little depressed as well, but not that much. I am not connecting with the characters very well. It won't be like in other series where the I'll be going noo.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Oh man. This is... so crazy. Sayaka is totally dead after her boyfriend will crush her, if we even get that far. I think this new girl will be the one to do it too. We saw a witch do it, now we need another MG, this way Madoka learns about the dangers of both sides.

This is turning out to be great show. I have a feeling I will be a little depressed as well, but not that much. I am not connecting with the characters very well. It won't be like in other series where the I'll be going noo.

Having both of these thoughts at the same time really does not compute with me.

I mean, if you're not connecting with any of the characters, then how is this a great show in your opinion?


I think that Madoka is a pretty good show, but then I am connecting with some of the characters.

[Dark Wing]

Well one dose not really have to connect to the characters to be entertained by a story sometimes it can be the way a story unfolds thats enough for entertainment.

Also I feel some of people are being a little too hard on Madoka for not considering wishing Mami back from the dead. She had just watched something horrifying happen to a person doing the exact thing she was thinking of doing only a few moments ago. Do you really think she would be thinking of wishing for that when in fact she is afraid to wish for anything at all at this point.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Also I feel some of people are being a little too hard on Madoka for not considering wishing Mami back from the dead. She had just watched something horrifying happen to a person doing the exact thing she was thinking of doing only a few moments ago. Do you really think she would be thinking of wishing for that when in fact she is afraid to wish for anything at all at this point.

On the contrary, if she were afraid to make that wish, I would understand. I only ask that the writers address it.

Hell, I would have been expecting Kyube to go, "You can wish someone back from the dead if you like." Would make a tempting recruitment offer, and let the audience know it's possible. It goes along with the audience wanting to know what the limits of the wish are, if any.

The longer it goes on, the more likely we are led to believe that anything is possible. And thus, the writers could hold out until the end, where a character makes a wish to make everything right again.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Well one dose not really have to connect to the characters to be entertained by a story sometimes it can be the way a story unfolds thats enough for entertainment.

Speaking personally, I have to disagree.

If a story fails to make me care about any of its characters, then there's no way I'd find that story entertaining.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It's just that wish systems in stories have huge potential to make the characters stupid in order for the plot to work *coughcoughNEVERENDINGSTORY2AND3coughcough*. I'd rather not see that happen here.

Ok havn't seen both in quite a while so hopefully I havn't forgotten too much (though honestly,I've been trying to forget they exist )

In NES2 &3 the protagonist has unlimited number of wishes and wishes were "free" there was nothing to pay back.

That's definatly not the case here,you've got 1wish and it pretty much comes at the price of turning your life into hell.

So even if not told outright the reason to not make a wish,the audience knowing about the price to pay for such a wish can make a reasonable guess,that was not the case with NES2 &3.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

On the contrary, if she were afraid to make that wish, I would understand. I only ask that the writers address it.

Hell, I would have been expecting Kyube to go, "You can wish someone back from the dead if you like." Would make a tempting recruitment offer, and let the audience know it's possible. It goes along with the audience wanting to know what the limits of the wish are, if any.

The longer it goes on, the more likely we are led to believe that anything is possible. And thus, the writers could hold out until the end, where a character makes a wish to make everything right again.

Well that sadly fall on the writers to deiced if they want to explore that route or not. Who knows maybe they feel it would be kind of hard to tell a story about consequences when people can just go around bring each other back to life

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Speaking personally, I have to disagree.

If a story fails to make me care about any of its characters, then there's no way I'd find that story entertaining.

Well thats you personally however not ever one else will feel the same way. Hell I remember when Higurashi no Naku Koro ni first aired most viewer cared more about the horrifying deaths then the actual characters that when season two came around most people stopped watching because there was no more "LOL STAB LOLI STAB!" going on.

[broken270]

Spoiler:

And thus, life goes on without Mami being revived anytime soon, not with how either girl is reacting to the situation. So, we say farewell to Kyuubei, now that he knows (as well as they admit) that they cannot make any wishes after what they have seen. So, Kyuubei leaves to find another magical girl to take Mami's place.

Madoka walks into Mami's room, in hope that what she saw yesterday was just a dream. It turns out to be a cold reality that Mami is no more. Upon leaving her room comes Homura, and both of them have a small chat for a while. Homura tells her the truth that if magical girls die in the process of fighting in the parallel world, they would merely be labeled as missing. In Mami's case, because she truly has no one by her side, caling her missing would take a while. Madoka only cries, realizing the harshness of the aftermath of a magical girl and at herself for not being "strong enough" to take the role of a magical girl. Here, she vows never to forget anyone whom she knew was a magical girl. This makes Homura flinch, and she calls her "too caring." Maybe her wish was to make sure that Madoka would not get involved into this Magic Girl business, so that she would not suffer as she does right now just for someone she met a few days ago.

Sayaka visits Kyousuke once more, but was unsuccessful because he is going through yet another test. Even the nurses this time know of her kindness to continue to visit someone whom they believe has no chance of recovering. Well, he will recover; it is just that he can never play the violin again. Upon a successful visit, Kyousuke listens to music once more, but takes out his frustration out loud and even shatters the CD player with his "useless" hand.

As soon as Homura and Madoka left to their separate paths, Madoka comes across Hitomi and, to her surprise, she has a witch kiss. Did she get depressed from...not hanging out with Sayaka and Madoka lately? That aside, Madoka finds more people in the same situation as Hitomi. unable to bear it any longer, she does the only thing she could do: take the bucket of chloride? and safely throw it away from harm's way. When everyone reacts, Madoka is scared and runs away, only to be caught by a witch into the witch's world. At the brink of death, it is Sayaka that saves her, not Homura. Sayaka apparently made the wish to have Kyousuke healed completely. Sayaka saves Madoka and all is fare, without a grief seed. Homura shows up and literally gives Sayaka a "why the hell did you become a magical girl" face.

Meanwhile, Kyuubei did manage to find someone to replace Mami...a few minutes before Sayaka wishes to become a magical girl. It looks like there is going to be a new transfer student? and a fight between magical girls sometime soon about...territory?

Speculation

Spoiler:

Does that guy only care about music and nothing else? It is understood that, for a musician, music is their life, and one mistake can ruin a musical career. I think breaking a CD, saying that you now hate music because you cannot play it anymore, and almost taking it out on someone close to him (probably not relationship-wise in his eyes) is going a bit too far. I do not believe that he even reacted or stopped when Sayaka was above him and trying to calm him down. And out of desperation to help him in any way she can, look who decides to show up? None other that Kyuubei. Coincidence? He did say that he will appear in front of anyone who was in need of having their wish granted.

Well, Sayaka made her wish: to heal the boy whom she is in love with. That reaction from Kyousuke when he realizes that his hand is completely healed...it sent shivers down my spine. That was nowhere near a feeling of happiness. Probably surprise, but maybe in the wrong way? The title of the next episode is "No regrets." Although it may be true in Sayaka's point of view, I can't help but feel that that will be true. She is going to be saddened that things did not go her way despite what she did for him, but she will not regret it. I think that is how much she loves him, but I believe Kyousuke is oblivious to her love and will only care about music.

The last seconds of the how that featured Kyoko picked up my attention out of everything else. What is this about having the right to supervise an area under your control? The city that Madoka is living in must be lively with witches if it made Kyoko that happy about taking Mami's place. I guess it is also a survival of the fittest thing, where the strong remain magical girls and the weak "grief out" and become witches. Why can't the girls work together to take out the witches? I guess it is a fight to stay themselves the longest; otherwise, even working together would bite back at them when they share Greif seeds and realize it is not enough for the both of them to share.

[Funkatron]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

The official site states they're childhood friends, so I don't think she was just audience for him.

But I agree about the theme of facing reality. In fact, I think Madoka's previous wish of being a MG was escaping reality too. She wanted to gain self-worth by being an MG. But now she's changing, now she's taking the reins of her life by her own, no magic involved. I like the message on that.

Thats true but at the same time she sees first hand now the problems caused by witches. She almost lost a friend in episode 4 and almost died in the process of saving her and others. She can't unsee or ignore the threat of witches: I think that was the main point of the episode. That's a reality she'll have to deal with as well.

@Kaijo: I'm with you. You can't assume that she's even thinking of bringing Mami back if there is no evidence that shows she's even thinking it. She never addresses it. Kyubee never addresses it. Sayaka never addresses it. Heck, I'd expect Homura to warn her not to do it out of grief. It's never addressed and no one even hints of thinking about it, wanting to do it or even mentioning it. Thats what Kaijo is trying to say. We can infer that it is a possibility but we can't infer if they are even considering it since it hasn't been mentioned at all.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Funkatron

Thats true but at the same time she sees first hand now the problems caused by witches. She almost lost a friend in episode 4 and almost died in the process of saving her and others. She can't unsee or ignore the threat of witches: I think that was the main point of the episode. That's a reality she'll have to deal with as well.

Maybe, but now we have not one but two MG in town. That's one MG too many, so I don't think there's going to be a need for a new one for the time being. For now, I don't think Madoka is going feel too pressured to become one herself. Her time will come much later on I think.

[Funkatron]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Maybe, but now we have not one but two MG in town. That's one MG too many, so I don't think there's going to be a need for a new one for the time being. For now, I don't think Madoka is going feel too pressured to become one herself.

True but eventually the hero inside her is going to come out if anyone else that is close to her gets lured in by a witch. Heck, I was expecting Kyubee to show up when she locked herself in that room and for her to make the decision to save her green-haired friend (name escapes me) right then and there.