2012-09-26, 10:56 | Link #41 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2006
Age: 38
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People have said School Days is cynical, but honestly I'm glad such anime exist. Everytime I think of that scene with Makoto and that cooking club member talking about him being a playboy, as if all the guilt should fall on the guy, when it was her that agreed to nonchalantly sleep with him, even acknowledging he had a girlfriend, I just feel sick to my stomach. Yes, it's cynical, then again men and women have nonchalant sex all the time. In all its gory fashion, this much needed cautionary tale actually points out the humanity behind the sex.
The characters' loose morality works wonders. Maybe the concept of loose morals itself is so effective, but for anyone willing to look past the mysogyny and nymphomania in School Days, the perspective that some people may not share your values is good to have when dealing with all kinds of people. Speaking as a former otaku who had to regain faith in women and, ultimately, humanity, having this perspective is simply a necessity if you want the discovery of people you can share your values with to be awarding. |
2012-09-26, 15:08 | Link #42 | |
Battoru!
Join Date: Sep 2012
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I mean one of the villains is a girl who was gang raped and another is someone who was driven insane by bullying. And Saejima, hands down my favorite character, is a corrupt cop who sells police evidence for money! I guess what I'm saying is, it's true GTO has a happy ending, but the aime itself is not just stupidly happy and optimistic. At times it can actually be extremely sad and then at other times it can be laugh out loud funny. Which is why GTO is such a great series. |
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2012-09-27, 18:07 | Link #43 |
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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Back to topic, there's nothing wrong on loving School Days because its satirical and cynical values but calling it as "realistic" and "masterpiece" it just way beyond retarded. Let's use Saw movies for example, yes its gory and they victims deserved to die like that and that's is the movie's selling point. Yes it is entertaining as hell especially you're a fan of such movies but calling it as a masterpiece, critics think either you're hardcore fanboy or you're had problems. Same for Michael Bay movies as well, with explosion, sexy women, etc.
To me School Days were made to satisfy a group of anime fans which not includes me but lots of other anime fans loved it to death. This is my last post and if the OP still to discuss it with me, please use PM instead. Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2012-09-27 at 20:06. Reason: Please don't disucss rep. |
2012-09-28, 00:08 | Link #44 |
Criminal Unrequitor
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Join Date: Jul 2010
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Weirdest thread I've seen in a while. It's half School Days, half recommendations. It's like you know it's in the wrong thread but it doesn't exactly have a correct thread to be put into either.
Going into topic (which?), School days never intended to be realistic but there are a few things that this series has that RL has also. The "player" (which is what Makoto would be in real life), and the "bitch" and the "slut" that gets pregnant because of the "player" (which Sekai handles perfectly). Kotonoha . . . just no. School Days being a genre deconstruction on the other hand. . . that kinda fits I guess. But if I were recommending a genre deconstruction anime or just plain dark ones in general, Madoka and F/Z definitely fits (as many other people in this thread have iterated).
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2012-09-28, 19:07 | Link #45 |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
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i think School Days is realistic not so much on the setting but what a normal teenage boy who thinks with his hormones and not his brain would do if present if that girls willing to have sex with him.
As far as the aftermath, read and heard of bloodier endings in real life.
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2012-09-28, 19:22 | Link #46 |
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When you say "genre deconstruction", are you using the TVtropes definition of "deconstruction"? I'm not so sure of where you are going with your post. For example, how is FMA a deconstruction using that definition? I'd guess it's because events have tangible consequences and there is very little plot armor for a shonen manga, it gives a feel of being 'more realistic'. I wouldn't call it a "deconstruction", just a well done piece of fiction.
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2012-09-28, 19:56 | Link #47 | |
Battoru!
Join Date: Sep 2012
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The common pursuit of most protagonists in a shounen manga is the pursuit of fighting power. But arguably the central theme of FMA (Brotherhood really drives this home) is how the pursuit of destructive power is illusory and how in actuality, the most powerful fighters are the weakest human beings. There are numerous examples of this: Spoiler:
These are the most important examples I can think of, but certainly not the only ones. |
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2012-09-29, 07:01 | Link #48 |
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But again, I wouldn't call any of that a "deconstruction" of anything. It's just better written shonen, it has tight characterization and a coherent theme over time, but I don't know why that is a "deconstruction". I don't even really know what that is. That's why I asked, are you using the TVtropes definition when you talk about a deconstruction?
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2012-09-29, 12:15 | Link #49 | |
Battoru!
Join Date: Sep 2012
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I gave you some very good points. Do you disagree that the main theme of most Shounen Fighters is "the pursuit of fighting power"? |
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2012-09-29, 12:32 | Link #50 |
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I think Ninja Realist's point is pretty clear.
In most shounen shows, becoming more powerful is objectively a good thing. The process of becoming more powerful can be incredibly painful, time-consuming, and/or tedious, but once you get the power, you're definitely better for it. Most shounen show treats power like real life sports treats becoming a better athlete: Getting there is typically hard work, but you're definitely better for it. FMA really does turn that on its head a bit, where power itself (and not just the process used to acquire it) can come with its own intrinsic downsides, so you're not necessarily better off for becoming more powerful. I think FMA does a good job of questioning the pursuit of power in a way that, say, a show like Bleach or Naruto doesn't really question (based on what I've seen of them anyway). Is that enough to label FMA a deconstruction? I don't know, but it's an interesting argument at least.
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2012-09-29, 12:47 | Link #51 | |
Battoru!
Join Date: Sep 2012
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Holy crap, this! This is exactly what I was trying to say with all those confusing examples. (thank you messageboard angel) |
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2012-09-29, 14:16 | Link #52 |
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Fullmetal Alchemist is nowhere close to being a deconstruction. People throw that word around way too much these days. It's a genre piece, a damn good one, and deviates from formula in many good and interesting ways.
For it to be a deconstruction, it would need to stay far closer to the typical formula, while more closely examining the consequences of genre conventions, such as the never-ending quest for higher power levels... things like that aren't even terribly important in FMA. Also, if they really wanted to be more realistic/deconstructive on the whole power levels thing, a training arc would end with broken bones, muscle overuse, and possibly debilitating injuries. At the end of FMA battles/training arcs, the heroes are simply left stronger.
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-09-30 at 02:23. Reason: Please edit rather than double-posting |
2012-09-29, 15:25 | Link #53 | |
Battoru!
Join Date: Sep 2012
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There are examples of this in FMA: Spoiler:
I don't know if this is enough for you and, in truth, there is no manga that exists which accurately portrays the brutal realities of physical training and how incredibly difficult it actually is to train your muscles and how easy it is to injure them just while trying to train. Thus when people use genres to describe things, they realize that almost nothing falls purely into one genre category and that most things have many elements of different genres. So for something to be called deconstruction it need only have elements of deconstruction. It doesn't have to be a pure deconstruction. |
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2012-09-29, 15:36 | Link #54 |
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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You are overrating FMA. You are thinking that it's own main theme (the equivalent trade concept in which everything has a price) makes itself revolutionary for the shounen battle genre, while i think it's not. It's still primarily shounen manga that made itself stand out more from the generic action series because of it's own little bit of seinen "flavor" added.
As for the hardship of training, most sports manga do a better job than FMA . |
2012-09-29, 15:39 | Link #55 |
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
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By this definition, Rurouni Kenshin can be as subversive. Knowing what eventually happened to Kenshin's body after fighting way over the limits allowed by his body and his age.
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2012-09-29, 15:41 | Link #56 | |
Battoru!
Join Date: Sep 2012
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I think the most realistic sports manga I've read was Buyuden but that one did a pretty weak job even. As someone who has trained seriously, for most of my life, I have yet to find a manga that wasn't entirely unrealistic when it came to this subject. Did you read my angry rant on this subject, vis-a-vis Kenichi earlier in this thread? That's why I changed the thread title. I realized that "deconstruction" is, although a deeply flawed term, still better a more applicable term than "realism" because 99.9% of anime and manga is deeply unrealistic. |
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2012-09-29, 16:04 | Link #57 | |
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...Deconstruction As for deconstructing FMA, all of your previous examples are tied to it's main theme of equivelant trade: "Nothing is free. To get something, you have to pay/sacrifice something of equal value." Which in itself is a life lesson. This theme (and life lessons in general) is more common in media that are meant for a more adult audience found in seinen or josei mangas. That's why i mentioned earlier that it's just a shounen manga with a little bits of seinen flavor. |
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2012-09-29, 16:25 | Link #58 | |
Battoru!
Join Date: Sep 2012
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Anyways, a lot of my FMA examples are not about equivalent exchange. Hawkeye and Havoc couldn't even use alchemy. Equivalent exchange is not the same as power makes you weak. |
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2012-09-29, 16:35 | Link #59 | |
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Riza Hawkeye and gunslinger girl are both classic example of people sacrificing their emotions in exchange to kill more effectively. When i was talking about equivelant trade as a life lesson, of course i don't litterly mean it by using alchemy. It just means that in order to achive something, you have to sacrifice somethng else (effort, money or whatever) in it's place. In case you didn't understand that, here is an example : In real life, if you want to buy something you have to sacrifice your money to do so. To get money, you have to earn it by working. Which means that you sacrificed your free time and effort to get money. etc. While i am still complaining, school days is also overrated to call it an entire deconstruction of the harem trope. Because this was done earlier in eroge, hentai games and hentai anime that came out before school days . edit: also i think you are overthinking too much about School days. While you may think it has smart themes, to me and many others it is just a nukige in a high school settings with some guro content in it. Those 3 elements are probably used because it overall pleases a broader eroge audience with the purpose to sell more games back then. Last edited by hyl; 2012-09-29 at 17:03. |
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2012-09-29, 17:20 | Link #60 | ||
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Your statement (that I bolded) carries no weight at all if you're not able to back it up with at least a concrete example or two. Quote:
I don't think that Ninja Realist is overthinking School Days. I think that you're allowing a personal distaste of it to cause you to dismiss School Days a bit too easily. Also, how is saying that something is a deconstruction the same as overrating it? A deconstruction is neither inherently good or inherently bad - It simply is. Being a deconstruction is no guarantee of greatness in a general sense.
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