Shakugan no Shana Terminology and Metaphysics Discussion Thread

[ashlay]

isn't this somewhat sidestepping the issue that Shana doesn't actually have a large existence?

Shana simply has a large "capacity", whatever that means, making her someone who Alastor can put his entire existence into. not like she was using any flames when she was training after all.

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by ashlay

isn't this somewhat sidestepping the issue that Shana doesn't actually have a large existence?

Shana simply has a large "capacity", whatever that means, making her someone who Alastor can put his entire existence into. not like she was using any flames when she was training after all.

I got most of the info from the Q&A section in volume 0. As far as I understand, "existence" and "capacity" are one and the same thing. A Crimson Lord requires a large enough existence in order for his powers to be trasferred to the Flame Haze without having to physcially manifest themselves at the expense of anybody else's PoE.

Of course, both you and Ahn Minh are not incorrect. It could probably be a simple case of Takahashi writing a plot hole for himself and I'm just talking BS here.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

I got most of the info from the Q&A section in volume 0. As far as I understand, "existence" and "capacity" are one and the same thing. A Crimson Lord requires a large enough existence in order for his powers to be trasferred to the Flame Haze without having to physcially manifest themselves at the expense of anybody else's PoE.

Of course, both you and Ahn Minh are not incorrect. It could probably be a simple case of Takahashi writing a plot hole for himself and I'm just talking BS here.

my mistake, should have been paying better attention. >_<

well, it does sound like something that would go in an epilogue of some kind, so I suppose the best one can hope for is that something along the lines of your theory ends up in some final exposition story.

[Kinny Riddle]

Mistes (Some spell Mystes, but that's up to each person's preferences)

Mistes are a special type of Torch in that they carry Hougus (Treasure Device), special tools used by Denizens and Flame Hazes for all sorts of purposes. (I'll write more in the Hougu entry. ) Mistes are no different from Torches in that they burn out eventually, and the person who has turned into a Mistes would be forgotten.

When the Mistes's flame is extinguished, whether gradually or forcibly terminated, the Hougu inside would be randomly transferred to another Mistes.

Depending upon the function of the Hougu being stored, some Mistes may be able to move in a Fuuzetsu or even prolong their flames. Sakai Yuji is the only Mistes able to live perpetually thanks to the Reiji Maigo inside him.

Tenmoku Ikko

Special mention must be given to the Mistes known as Tenmoku Ikko. Not a lot is known about him, save that he used to be a swordsmith that came to know of the Crimson World and the battle between Flame Hazes and Crimson Denizens. So fascinated was he by the intense battle that he decided to pour all his energy and existence into forging the Hougu katana - Nietono no Shana, which contains some of his PoE.

Some say he and the samurai armour he wears are one of the same person, some say his PoE fused with that of the samurai that wore the fearsome looking armour. In any case, one thing is clear: swordsmith was so determined in giving the katana to someone worthy enough of wielding it, he was willing to sacrifice his existence and become a Mistes on his own will.

He travelled for ages, attacking both Crimson Denizens and Flame Hazes indiscriminately in search of a worthy owner for his katana. Since he's a Mistes, his presence could not be sensed easily by both Denizens and Flame Hazes, coupled with the fact that he can move in a Fuuzetsu, making him the most feared Mistes in history.

It's never explained how his flame managed to go on for so long. One explanation is that he consumes Denizens that he slices and eats their PoE along with them. This could also explain why normal humans don't seem to notice him, for technically he's still a Torch, so his existence is not as strong as a normal humans, but just enough to keep him moving "mindlessly" in search of the "Strong One".

In the end, he finally got his wish by battling the Flame Haired Burning Eyed Assassin, and she then becomes the current owner of the katana. Her name also being derived from this blade years later by Yuji.

Trivia: Tenmoku Ikko's name (天目一個) is based on a god in Japanese mythology - Ame no Hitotsu no Kami (天目一箇神, literally "The One-Eyed God", a fitting name since Tenmoku Ikko only has one glowing eye). The kanji is similar but unlike the god which used the kunyomi spelling, author Takahashi used the onyomi spelling for Tenmoku Ikko.

Japanese wikipedia entry for Ame no Hitotsu no Kami
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%...AE%87%E7%A5%9E

[Kinny Riddle]

People, show some enthusiasm in your discussion. Don't just lurk if you got a question. The thread is too quiet.

Hougu (Treasure Device)

These are the "treasure chests" of the Shana-verse. They come in all sorts of shapes and forms. Some are weapons, like the Nietono no Shana and Blutsauger, some are used as defense, like Friagne's Azure Ring (the flame-resistant ring Yuji now carries). And there are others that are placed inside Mistes, the most famous example being the Reiji Maigo. All of these Hougus are powered by PoE in one way or another.

Reiji Maigo (Midnight Stray)

The "Holy Grail" of all Crimson Denizens, in that it is able to generate PoE on its own perpetually.

Spoiler for Novel spoilers:

The Reiji Maigo was originally created by the Crimson Lord Pheles (the green-haired lady in the second series OP). She fell in love with a human called Johan. In order to live eternally with Johan, she made Johan into a Mistes that could live forever using the Reiji Maigo, at the same time, she also relied on the PoE generated from the Reiji Maigo, thus she does not need to prey on humans.

The Denizen organization Bal Masque is intent on getting the Reiji Maigo, and has sent an assassin known as "Broken Blade" after the two.

Flame Haze Wilhelmina Carmel met and befriended them during her journey, and took it upon herself to protect them from "Broken Blade". However, "Broken Blade" finally caught hold of them and had Johan fatally wounded.

Before Johan could disintegrate, Pheles stuffed Johan's "existence" inside of the Reiji Maigo, forcing the Hougu to randomly transfer prematurely before it could fall into "Broken Blade's" hands.

In response, "Broken Blade" chanted a complicated series of Unrestricted Spells on the disappearing Reiji Maigo. The Reiji Maigo then ended up in the Mistes Sakai Yuji, allowing Yuji to "exist" perpetually.

Not much is known about what these spells would do, but Wilhelmina fears it won't be anything good. She knows Pheles is intent on resurrecting her lover, but Wilhelmina cannot afford to let the balance of the world be jeopardized, which is why she was determined to destroy Yuji.

After being stopped by Shana, Wilhelmina has to contemplate fighting her friend Pheles, who would stop at nothing at bringing Johan back at Yuji's expense.

[Ratix]

Question about Crimson Denizens and Crimson Lords... Example is that Alastor is a Crimson lord right? Are there "unkindly" counterparts of Alastor, AKA Evil Crimson Lords? The only difference is what they choose to do? Im acctually quite confused by this upon reading the manga's first few chapters, where the explanation is slightly different from that of the anime. And I suppose same for the novel(Which even though I have bought it for ages, I haven't read it. Too occupied by Haruhi >_>)

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by Ratix

Question about Crimson Denizens and Crimson Lords... Example is that Alastor is a Crimson lord right? Are there "unkindly" counterparts of Alastor, AKA Evil Crimson Lords? The only difference is what they choose to do? Im acctually quite confused by this upon reading the manga's first few chapters, where the explanation is slightly different from that of the anime. And I suppose same for the novel(Which even though I have bought it for ages, I haven't read it. Too occupied by Haruhi >_>)

They're all one and the same thing.

The "Evil Crimson Lords" that you mention are the series antagonists, those that prey on human PoE to manifest themselves physically in order to pursue their desires.

Alastor and others that form contracts with Flame Haze would be the "Good Crimson Lords" out to stop their own kind from upsetting the balance between the two worlds.

[Masanori Ota]

To be more specific, is there any difference between Crimson Denizens and Crimson Lords other than LOLPOWERLEVELS? This thread leads me to believe there isn't.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Masanori Ota

To be more specific, is there any difference between Crimson Denizens and Crimson Lords other than LOLPOWERLEVELS? This thread leads me to believe there isn't.

nope, just lolpowerlevels.

the weak ones are denziens, the strong ones are lords. as the classifications suggest, nothing but heirarchy.

[tabun]

Then what would interest me is how the Lords have attained their respective power level. Age? Training? Any hints here? (I don't mind spoilers from the Manga crowd here, but others might )

Also, what if, let's say, the Flame of Heaven were to meet the Arbiter of Reverse Reasoning one on one, what would the difference in power be? Would it be over nine thousand? (sorry for that)

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by tabun

Then what would interest me is how the Lords have attained their respective power level. Age? Training? Any hints here? (I don't mind spoilers from the Manga crowd here, but others might )

Also, what if, let's say, the Flame of Heaven were to meet the Arbiter of Reverse Reasoning one on one, what would the difference in power be? Would it be over nine thousand? (sorry for that)

Sadly, author Takahashi has yet to reveal how these two classes are distinguished. We can only assume that their ranks are based on their powers.

As for power levels between Crimson Lords, well, that's open for debate. Though technically speaking, Alastor, who is the only Crimson Lord to emit a natural red flame (compared to the "unnatural" colours of Marchosias's blue, Tiamat's purple and Behemoth's orange, etc), is considered by many from the Crimson World to be the most powerful in terms of strength, as he requires an insane amount of PoE to manifest physically. Hence his long search for a suitable container large enough to hold him.

[Masanori Ota]

Well, Alastor is only the most powerful if you ignore...

Spoiler:

...the Serpent with his black flame and the Knight with his silver, unless the two are one and the same, but I've been lead to believe they aren't.

[tabun]

Well, Masanori Ota, I cannot relate to the characters you name in your spoiler tag; maybe they are from the novel, but have not appeared in the show thus far? If so, I thank you for trying to give some sort of comparison, but may I advise you to give some hint to the spoiler tag's content as maybe a novel/manga spoiler in it's title?

Spoiler for in regards to the above spoiler tag's content...:

I am not really certain if you are just using an alternate description of characters already shown, or if I am right as far as the novel thing goes. Would you please clarify this for me? I would love to have some explanation of the power relations in the SHANA-series!

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by tabun

Well, Masanori Ota, I cannot relate to the characters you name in your spoiler tag; maybe they are from the novel, but have not appeared in the show thus far? If so, I thank you for trying to give some sort of comparison, but may I advise you to give some hint to the spoiler tag's content as maybe a novel/manga spoiler in it's title?

Spoiler for in regards to the above spoiler tag's content...:

I am not really certain if you are just using an alternate description of characters already shown, or if I am right as far as the novel thing goes. Would you please clarify this for me? I would love to have some explanation of the power relations in the SHANA-series!

Spoiler for spoilers for novel:

lets not go into this too deeply, there's a whole topic for such things. But to keep it simple while answering your question, the yet to be seen (in the anime) former leader of Bal Masque is apparently the single most powerful Crimson Lord ever.

[hayate-sama]

i have a big question about the fuzetsu here

Spoiler for fuzetsu:

as far as I can understand, the fuzetsu like a sealed area where time and space stop so here is what I understand.

when a fight occur at 3 h 00 minute , they set a fuzetsu and fight then when the fuzetsu closed, it is at 3 h 00 minute no more or less. So it is impossible for both flame haze and tomogara to enter an fuzetsu from the outside even to see it because it only exit at 3h 00 minute, because like the example, it was open and close at 3 h 00 minute so they don't have enough time to enter it, if even 1/10000000.... second passed it was to late.

so why in the anime i saw that shana can enter an fuzetsu from the outside, even see it ?

[Kinny Riddle]

I was about to go into Fuuzetsus sometime this week, so here we go.

Fuuzetsu (lit. "Sealed Absolute". If you like, it can be called "Absolute Barrier", but that sounds too Evangelion-like, so I prefer "Sealed Barrier")

A dimensional barrier created by both Crimson Lords/Denizens and Flame Hazes. A Fuuzetsu is powered by PoE provided by that Crimson Denizen/Flame Haze.

In the past, Denizens openly devour humans without bothering to hide themselves, but over time, doing so would attract the attention of Flame Hazes more easily. Hence they came up with a way to "cheat", they form a Fuuzetsu of a certain radius (depends on their PoE levels), freezing everything inside into a stasis, except those related to the Crimson World, like Denizens, Flame Hazes.

Though ordinary Torches are incapable of moving in a Fuuzetsu, some Mistes have the unique ability to move around. This is one reason why the legendary Mistes Tenmoku Ikko was so feared by Denizens and Flame Hazes alike, as his presence in a Fuuzetsu can be totally unexpected and undetected.

When a Fuuzetsu is formed, it "isolates" the space within with the outside world, creating a separate dimension. Everything that is unrelated to the Crimson World freezes in static motion.

During "isolation", the space that becomes enveloped by a Fuuzetsu "disappears" from "existence" in the duration that it is on.

For example, if a Fuuzetsu is formed over Tokyo Tower for 30 minutes, then for that 30 minutes, the humans in the outside world would actually think that Tokyo Tower "never existed". Only a Flame Haze and Denizen can detect a Fuuzetsu being formed and enter and exit it as they please.

For normal humans, since Tokyo Tower "never existed", they would unconsciously avoid walking towards there. After a Fuuzetsu is closed, the humans would once again "remember" that Tokyo Tower exists, but they just can't figure out what on earth they were doing if it involves Tokyo Tower in those 30 minutes. Awkward it may seem, these humans would somehow come up with a way to "rationalise" their behaviour during that time. (As a character in the Potter novels would say "These Muggles would deny magic exist even when it's staring at them right under their noses.") This is where Tuners come in and "Fine Tune" the awkwardness and distortion felt by these humans.

Since any damage inside a Fuuzetsu can be repaired easily using PoE, they are also created by Flame Hazes as a convenient tool in order to do battle with Crimson Denizens while not affecting as little humans as possible.

Though the more hapless souls inside might get in the line of fire and even have their existence "extinguished" accidentally. Most Flame Hazes are too aloof to care anyway, as their priority is to hunt Denizens rather than protect humans. Just look at Shana at the beginning of the series, if it weren't for Yuji volunteering to use his PoE to fix the damage at his school, Shana would have turned Ike (Yoshida in the movie) into a Torch already.



hayate-sama, to answer your question, I believe this "isolation" concept has been misinterpreted badly by JC STAFF in the anime, in that time doesn't freeze inside a Fuuzetsu.

[hayate-sama]

thank for your explaination, i was thinking all night for that problem, so that mean alot of kid will be get lost because they are in a fuzetsu and their an parent is outside

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by hayate-sama

thank for your explaination, i was thinking all night for that problem, so that mean alot of kid will be get lost because they are in a fuzetsu and their an parent is outside

Er...I don't think they'll even remember ever getting lost, since they're in stasis inside.

While their parents outside wandered for as long the Fuuzetsu lasted as thought they "never had kids", and then reunites with them once the Fuuzetsu is down, while struggling to remember how they spend the last 30 minutes with their kids.

Of course, this is provided that those kids are lucky enough not to get devoured by Denizens and turned into Torches.

[serenade_beta]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

Of course, this is provided that those kids are lucky enough not to get devoured by Denizens and turned into Torches.

Even if they become torches, the parents still will remember them, until the existence becomes too small.

[bismuth]

Where does the hougou come from? How are they created? Does the novel give any explanation? From the anime it would appear that the hougou would randomly be created on a torch.

I'm also curious about the Reiji Maigo. How did Pheles create that thing? Did the novel explain it? Probably not.