2009-12-04, 10:32 | Link #241 | |
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under...
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I don't quite see how this fits with the romance, but to try and clear the air a little...
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There's a lot of psychoanalytic babble in that wiki article, but people like Freud basically argue that there are narcissistic traits in everyone, and that "healthy narcissism" is needed to set mature goals and maintain long term relationships, amongst other things. If anything, Alto seems to be a "healthy narcissist" most of the time, but perhaps he slips when he doesn't feel assured about something?
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2009-12-04, 11:50 | Link #242 |
A blast from the past
Artist
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fortaleza-CE, Brazil
Age: 46
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You guys realize there is a Character Thread for Alto, right? And that this discussion here has become completely off-topic sometime ago as well, right?
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2009-12-04, 12:04 | Link #243 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 48
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The definition of that on Wikipedia is a pretty good one: Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder defined by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the diagnostic classification system used in the United States, as "a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy." The narcissist is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, and prestige. Narcissistic personality disorder is closely linked to self-centeredness. It is also colloquially referred to as the god complex. So, unless Bri meant completely another thing, he is wrong with his assessment of Alto.
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2009-12-04, 15:01 | Link #244 |
Lovestruck Fool
Fansubber
Join Date: Jan 2006
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@Bri:
You're right in pointing out that Alto's focus throughout the majority of the series isn't on the girls themselves. To be specific, it's much more about finding direction and meaning in his life (a common enough theme amongst adolescents, to be sure). But unlike the traditional lawful good reluctant hero who will only move zig for great justice (or out of boundless love for his traditional incompetent heroine), Alto genuinely enjoys piloting his VF. As he points out in episode one, flying a VF means that he can fly where he wants to, without limitations (like those that a commercial pilot would face). I'd suspect that at least some fraction of military pilots were drawn into the career by a fascination for aircraft and a love of the skies. As such, Alto represents an interesting counterpoint to your standard mecha hero by actually enjoying, rather than dreading the experience (don't worry, the kids who are watching will still figure out that war is bad, on their own). Of course, he still needs to fit in with the other lawful good heroes in SMS, and his lack of tragic experiences with war leaves him rather unqualified to blow things up save kittens. So in a flash of brilliant insight, Alto grabs Ranka's tragic past and runs with it. Of course, Michael and Ozma aren't so easily fooled, so they still rag on him for being the girly man that he is. The main problem that Alto faces is that he's forced by the people around him to choose between playing one of two equally confining roles: either he becomes Ranka's knight in shining armor, or he gives it all up and goes back to acting (everyone knows that you're supposed to inherit your occupation; feudal lords do it all the time). For a time the former option works (refer to Alto's bit of dialogue about self-determination in episode twelve), but it's complicated by Brera stealing his thunder and Ranka's decision that Alto have her babies. The solution, ultimately, is "none of the above," and it boils down to the bit of dialogue that he has with Klan and Sheryl in episode five. Alto doesn't need a complicated reason like "I want to save kittens" just to be able to fly; he flies because he's meant to (granted, he does swear to protect all the tiny pink flowers of Frontier near the end of the series, but Macross does have its space opera tendancies). In short, he finally does what he's always dreamed of doing, without bothering to come up with the sort of silly pretences that people classically decorate their resumes with. In that, he finds real freedom, under an endless sky. In terms of your posts, I think the term narcissism is a bit too strong of a word. While I wouldn't go to the extent of clubbing you on the head with the DSM definition (which falls outside colloquial usage of the term, to be sure), it's not quite interchangable with "self-centred" or "egotistical". Granted, the term does have some shock value, if that's what you're going for. |
2009-12-04, 15:16 | Link #245 | ||
Nyaa~
Join Date: Mar 2009
Age: 35
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I think there's a bit of a difference in Alto focusing on a girl and
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@Magnus I'm pretty sure that He was talking about NPD considering this: Quote:
Last edited by Foreshadow; 2009-12-04 at 17:08. |
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2009-12-04, 17:01 | Link #247 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
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For me the term has the same weight as calling someone a self absorbed egotistical jerk. I stated in rather colorful discription that Alto was way too occupied with his personal issues to be really focused on a real romantic relationship. I would agree in your assesement of the motives of Alto and you put it in proze in a far nicer way then I possibly could. My english is fine but it's not near native level. @Maggy: For future reference, use a PM instead of adding personal insults to your posts. |
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2009-12-05, 06:14 | Link #248 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Suburb of Athens - Greece
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From Wacky-pedia.com (i hate that site but whatever)
The term narcissism refers to the personality trait of self-esteem, which includes the set of character traits concerned with self-image ego. The terms narcissism, narcissistic, and narcissist are often used as pejoratives, denoting vanity, conceit, egotism or simple selfishness. Applied to a social group, it is sometimes used to denote elitism or an indifference to the plight of others. Freud believed that some narcissism is an essential part of all of us from birth.Andrew P. Morrison claims that, in adults, a reasonable amount of healthy narcissism allows the individual's perception of his needs to be balanced in relation to others. While most people possess some degree of narcissistic traits, higher levels of narcissism can be dysfunctional, and may be classified as pathologies such as narcissistic personality disorder and malignant narcissism. Psychopathy, as defined by the PCL-R, also contains a narcissistic factor. Here in Greece during ancient times the concept was understood as hubris-ὕβρις
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Last edited by Audit01; 2009-12-05 at 06:28. |
2009-12-05, 07:35 | Link #249 |
A blast from the past
Artist
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fortaleza-CE, Brazil
Age: 46
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Not meaning to sound like a bitch or anything, but could you guys please move the Alto discussion to Alto's thread? It's not like we need another mod pruning on these threads, now is it? And they are watching already...
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2009-12-05, 10:35 | Link #250 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 48
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<.< >.> They are always watching. <takes tinfoil hat off> I am done anyway with this "discussion". If in lieu of facts the other side can only offer misinterpretation of terms and laughable evidence, it's of little use. Let's get on with romance discussion, if anyone cares to.
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2010-01-09, 08:37 | Link #251 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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A while ago...I watched Hikaru/Misa and Hikaru/Minmay videos (one each) and I think I can understand a little of the parallels... I hope Sheryl ends up as Misa as many people in this forum say...
However, there are some things that I would like to ask...Minmay and Hikaru had a date, just like Alto and Sheryl...while Hikaru and Misa were 'stuck(?)' in a deserted Earth(?) just like Ranka and Alto in Gallia 4...in this case, isn't it Misa=Minmay, Ranka=Misa? (No! I don't like it! Then again, I don't know anything!!! Please enlighten me about these things!) |
2010-01-09, 08:54 | Link #252 |
Valkyrie pilot
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Rouen, France
Age: 40
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Sheryl had some aspects of DYRL-Minmay, and some of Misa, mainly her strong will, and the fact she look like a mature woman. She's a mix of the two archetype.
Like Klan-Klan, who's a mix of Millia and Claudia. Ranka has the aspects of the SDFM-Minmay. Also, Sheryl, like Misa, thought her love for Alto was a impossible love ( for Misa, it was the ghost of Minmay in Hikaru's heart; for Sheryl, it was her disease), the two were ready to give up their love hapiness if it could her beloved happy, that's why, for me, Sheryl is the Misa of Macross Frontier. |
2010-01-09, 09:07 | Link #253 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
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The scenes you stated there are mostly just homages/tributes to the original Macross. Personality-wise, I don't think Sheryl, Ranka, Minmay and Misa are alike at all. Sure, Sheryl may be older than the hero, like Misa; and Ranka is immature like Minmay -- but honestly I prefer to think of them as their own person. |
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2010-01-09, 09:32 | Link #254 | ||
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Thanks for your replies... |
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2010-01-09, 09:41 | Link #255 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
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Don't worry about it -- we're all obsessed with Sheryl and Alto anyways. It's not just you.
(Actually it's not really about Sheryl getting Alto because she wants him -- it's just that between the two girls, we think Sheryl is better for him. Of course, this is also based on individual preferences...) |
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