[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Poetic Justice]

So episode 8 is really coming out on the 31st?

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Poetic Justice

So episode 8 is really coming out on the 31st?

Yep, during Comiket. Not long now, about a week till early spoilers start descending on the internets to troll us into oblivion for the next 6 months

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Kurome

Just finished it and although it seems like answering many questions through Shkannon/Yasu it does not explain while Kanon and Shannon are treated as different people aswell.

Maria identifies people through their behaviour so thinking Yasu is beatrice/shannon/kannon is easily explained for her but Jessica and George? They could not fall in love with the same person without noticing right? A possible explanation might be the love scenes between the couples to be illusions or only the Shannon scenes being true....

What makes you so positive that George and Jessica would be able to tell the difference? It's not like people regularly conclude that similarly-looking people are the same person. "Oh, well, they do treat each other like brother and sister. This might be why."

[Cao Ni Ma]

Maybe not as individuals but a family that employs both of them at the same time over the span of 4 years would never wonder why they have never seen two of their most trusted servants together at the same time? I know the Ushiromiya's aren't the brightest family in japan but...really?

[Kurome]

My Problem is how implausible it is. Well Shkannon is more or less fact know but it is hard to believe so many people
(minus the older servants and Genji who knew the truth) would be so negligent not to notice the existence of a person
acting as both man and woman, going to school with Jessica (did noone notice there?) and on dates with George.
Natsuhi is so picky but allows such an act? The witch of miracles must have helped Yasu more than once to pull that act. *chuckle*
This makes the mystery-factor kinda dull as no all murders can be explained with either fake deaths,
Eva doing the killing (ep3) or Shannon doing it...

[Misuzu]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

What makes you so positive that George and Jessica would be able to tell the difference? It's not like people regularly conclude that similarly-looking people are the same person. "Oh, well, they do treat each other like brother and sister. This might be why."

I think you're really overestimating how much a person can disguise themselves. One of my close friends is transgender. She's taken hormones for years, gotten treatments to remove facial hair, changed her hair, her voice, the way she dresses, her whole demeanor. But she's still gotten recognized by people who knew her before she started transitioning quite a few times. They don't think "Oh, this can't be my friend since this person appears to be female.", they can just tell it's the same person and comment on it. And this is someone whose appearance is drastically different in a way a quick costume change wouldn't be able to achieve.

I can buy frightened people not realizing that that's just Shannon in a Beatrice costume. I can buy Maria seeing Shannon as Beatrice just by the way she acts. I can even buy Battler and some of the other family members who were barely around Kanon not realizing that something is up. But I can't buy that anyone would be fooled by a costume changing Kanon for 3 years, especially someone like Jessica who has a close relationship with both of them.

From what we saw of Yasu, actively dressing and pretending to be Kanon doesn't seem to fit into the way her personas work either. I can totally see Kanon being a character in her head, even though the reasons the game gave for Kanon showing up seemed lacking. But dressing up and pretending to be two different people also seems much crazier then she was, at least at that point.

[AuraTwilight]

Maybe not as individuals but a family that employs both of them at the same time over the span of 4 years would never wonder why they have never seen two of their most trusted servants together at the same time? I know the Ushiromiya's aren't the brightest family in japan but...really?

Kanon's only been working there for three years, I think. Jessica is dominated by hormones, Natsuhi's crazy, Krauss is retarded, and everyone else is either dead or in on it, or only visits the island one or two times a year.

My Problem is how implausible it is. Well Shkannon is more or less fact know but it is hard to believe so many people
(minus the older servants and Genji who knew the truth) would be so negligent not to notice the existence of a person
acting as both man and woman, going to school with Jessica (did noone notice there?) and on dates with George.

What does Shannon going to school have to do with anything? Anyway, she was only forced to go to school up to middle school; she doesn't seem like she's attending high school whatsoever.

Shannon's and George's relationship is a secret, so of course Natsuhi doesn't know about it. AND SHE TALKS TO IMAGINARY PEOPLE, so who cares about what Natsuhi does or doesn't notice?

I think you're really overestimating how much a person can disguise themselves. One of my close friends is transgender. She's taken hormones for years, gotten treatments to remove facial hair, changed her hair, her voice, the way she dresses, her whole demeanor. But she's still gotten recognized by people who knew her before she started transitioning quite a few times. They don't think "Oh, this can't be my friend since this person appears to be female.", they can just tell it's the same person and comment on it. And this is someone whose appearance is drastically different in a way a quick costume change wouldn't be able to achieve.

Did your transgendered friend introduce themselves, or try and deny being the same person, or what? That sort of shit matters. Are they a fully developed man who underwent this change, or a sexually underdeveloped person like Yasu? That shit matters.

I know that such a deception can be done because it HAS been done. When I was in middle school, I pulled this sort of trick at school on a dare. Because of my poor health I missed out on a lot of school, so the two personas never being seen at the same time never phased anyone, and no one thought we were the same person for a full year.

It's doable. It's not likely, but it IS doable for the right circumstances, and it doesn't mean people are stupid for not picking up on it. The "Master of Disguise" trope wouldn't be so heavily used if there wasn't a grain of truth in it. These anti-Shkanon arguments, on some level, boil down to "I figured it out, so why not these assholes in the story? Idiots."

I can buy frightened people not realizing that that's just Shannon in a Beatrice costume. I can buy Maria seeing Shannon as Beatrice just by the way she acts. I can even buy Battler and some of the other family members who were barely around Kanon not realizing that something is up. But I can't buy that anyone would be fooled by a costume changing Kanon for 3 years, especially someone like Jessica who has a close relationship with both of them.

Jessica is exceptionally trusting in the people close to her, is kind of dumb, and is very emotional and hormone-driven. She also didn't notice that Kinzo was dead for over two years, so she's not all that perceptive. Explain why Jessica didn't know about Kinzo's death and maybe we'll have something here.

From what we saw of Yasu, actively dressing and pretending to be Kanon doesn't seem to fit into the way her personas work either. I can totally see Kanon being a character in her head, even though the reasons the game gave for Kanon showing up seemed lacking. But dressing up and pretending to be two different people also seems much crazier then she was, at least at that point.

Well we know for a fact that other Fukuin servants saw "a ghost in white" in the VIP Room and shit. She put on her Beatrice costume when she was being Beatrice, so logically it's not that odd for her to dress up as Kanon either.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Misuzu

I think you're really overestimating how much a person can disguise themselves. One of my close friends is transgender. She's taken hormones for years, gotten treatments to remove facial hair, changed her hair, her voice, the way she dresses, her whole demeanor. But she's still gotten recognized by people who knew her before she started transitioning quite a few times. They don't think "Oh, this can't be my friend since this person appears to be female.", they can just tell it's the same person and comment on it. And this is someone whose appearance is drastically different in a way a quick costume change wouldn't be able to achieve.

I can buy frightened people not realizing that that's just Shannon in a Beatrice costume. I can buy Maria seeing Shannon as Beatrice just by the way she acts. I can even buy Battler and some of the other family members who were barely around Kanon not realizing that something is up. But I can't buy that anyone would be fooled by a costume changing Kanon for 3 years, especially someone like Jessica who has a close relationship with both of them.

From what we saw of Yasu, actively dressing and pretending to be Kanon doesn't seem to fit into the way her personas work either. I can totally see Kanon being a character in her head, even though the reasons the game gave for Kanon showing up seemed lacking. But dressing up and pretending to be two different people also seems much crazier then she was, at least at that point.

The fact that I strongly defended the shkanon theory after EP6 and I was one of those that proposed it since EP4 doesn't make my view biased on this matter.

I acknowledge it: in a realistic scenario it would be impossible for a person to fool several people for several years with a simple disguise. If you think otherwise you need to adjust your reality check.


The question here is if Ryuukishi has a realistic explanation for this or if he's simply riding on an overused plot device.
Because indeed there's a huge block of narrative where disguises are supernaturally effective. As a plot device it is so widespread that it could give to Ryuukishi enough leeway to claim shkanon is acceptable. That doesn't change the fact that this is a physical impossibility.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Thats exactly how I feel, I knew it was coming since early in the episodes. I like to over analyze mundane things like intros to see if there is any foreshadowing for later episodes and it was very clear that something was going on with Shannon and Kanon since the second one was out. The only way I could solve some of the problems by the end of EP4 was with a name/personality trick and felt horrible for it.

I want to be surprised and I really hope I am with EP8, I'll half accept it if Im not though. Its just a huge suspension of disbelief that I would just have to deal with and be content that there was a huge amount of evidence for it.

[FM6]

Maybe Shannon actually looks more like Lion.
Or Jessica is just "Open minded" *giggle*.

[AuraTwilight]

I'd also like to throw out there that it's heavily implied that none of the characters look how Ryukishi draws them, and that we're basically seeing false appearances (save for Beatrice, paradoxically). This is confirmed for Lion and technically Jessica.

[Vylen]

Makes sense... no one actually looked that fashionable in the 80's ;P

[Kirroha]

At least the hair colours aren't truly like what they seem.

[Pika_power]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

This is confirmed for Lion and technically Jessica.

How so?

[Kirroha]

They don't really have blond hair.

[Axilios]

Well, Lion is a placeholder anyway, but Jessica's blonde hairs could come from Krauss, even if Krauss' hairs are more dark.

[Kirroha]

She's Japanese, and with Krauss and Natsuhi both Japanese I don't think she'll have blond hair. The sprites are all placeholders anyway, and the colors are merely for differentiation.

[Jan-Poo]

Really, if Jessica and Krauss really had blonde hairs the fact that Beatrice is blonde wouldn't have been pointed our so many times as something exotic.

Plus the joke that Kinzo and Bice made about Japanese hairs only makes sense if Japanese have all black hairs.


Get over it, the various hair color you see are merely for visual purposes. They aren't actually like that. Except for Erika's hairs maybe...

[Vylen]

And then im totally reminded of this...

[Kirroha]

Oh my goodness, that comic is gold.