Problem: 'I'm right, therefore you're wrong for not agreeing!' culture

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by OceanBlue

Honestly, what you're describing has been going on for far longer than you think. Even in B.C. 2008, you had stuff like that happening.

fixed

maybe not on AnimeSuki, but yeah

[Dhomochevsky]

The Madoka thing refers to this, not to Madoka subforums.

[Dr. Casey]

Hmm. I was replying to LS's mention of Madoka in his opening post, but far as the thread you linked to goes, I don't see any flaming at all unless there were some posts deleted. They might be a little overbearing and overeager, but they were being pretty friendly and well-intentioned about it.

[Dhomochevsky]

No, but it seems there was negative Rep spam.

Which might be the fans way of attack outside their natural habitat.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

but they were being pretty friendly and well-intentioned about it.

Yup, I think so too... They were just eager to convince new ones to watch they're fav anime. I heard many good points about Madoka.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

The Madoka thing refers to this, not to Madoka subforums.

This kind of reminds me of how I first got introduced to the Haruhi franchise, it's a story I like telling so I might as well tell it again. Basically I remember seeing an animated gif for it on a mecha related site and coming here to ask what it was only to notice that suddenly it was everywhere in the anime scene. I asked what it was and started getting the most IMO fanatical posts about how people wanted to "convert" me to "Haruhiism". At first I was a little freaked out, but I decided to persevere and ask more questions only to have it suggested that I was a "heretic" and needed to watch it and love it or else. After watching all 5 of the episodes that had aired up to that point I made some posts about how I thought it was amusing, but that I didn't really like the cast much and my oh my you should have seen some of the responses that got me. I'm used to it now, but back then I had never seen anything quite like that hostile response before and was pretty taken aback.

Still I persevered through the show and the thread as someone who merely thought the show was good in concept but flawed in execution of the casts development and overall appeal, but there's no doubt it severely impacted my appreciation of the show the first time around and even to this day I still have this stigma of Kyoani/Moe hater attached to me by some, even though my official position on them is that most of their shows are okay albeit mediocre as a whole package. In fact truth be told I have absolutely nothing against Kyoani at all and never have (their shows are mediocre to me but largely inoffensive save maybe Lucky Star), my only beef regarding them was how the fans (the ultra hardcore ones that is) went off on me with assured reliability if I didn't react with a post equivalent to kneeling before them and their works when sharing my impressions.

[Triple_R]

I get SeijiSensei's point that if someone is hating on a show week after week after week for several weeks or more, it's understandable for fans of that show to think "Is this guy/gal just trying to troll us?".

So what bothers me more is when even slight criticism within the first three episodes of an anime gets that "What's with all the hate?" and "If you don't like the show, then stop watching".

A lot of people here, and I include myself in this group, are anime aficionados. And what that means, in effect, is that we like to try out a lot of different shows each season (and not necessarily just ones that we think are really safe bets for us to like). We love the anime entertainment form/medium itself, and so we watch a lot of it.

There's enough people like this on Anime Suki now, and that have been doing this long enough now, that this should frankly be common knowledge on this site.


So the first three episodes of an anime show will tend to attract a wide spectrum of viewers, especially for more heavily hyped/prominent anime shows. Almost always somebody will not like the episode, so you'll at least get some critical posts early on.

But one thing you'll see a lot of in series threads is that after the first few episodes, a lot of the more critical viewers will drop off precisely because they aren't liking the show.

So I just think it would be good if there was a greater understanding amongst all the users of Anime Suki that opinion on a show will typically be at least a bit divided in the early going, and that this is to be expected really. If somebody is ripping a show to pieces on a weekly basis, and its now Episode 7, then yeah, at that point, a question like "What's with the hate?" might be valid.

But at Episode 2? Not at all. People are just giving an anime show the good ol' three episode try at that point.


I'm not sure what, precisely, mods can do about this, although I like what 0utf0xZer0 hinted at.

I agree with him. Treating the overly defensive fans like you do the overly harsh critics sounds like a good idea to me.

[Eragon]

I think the cause of such behaviour also lies in the fact that hardcore fans just refuse to see and accept the short-comings of their shows. No show is perfect. There will be flaws in a show that you might decide to ignore but it doesn't mean others should or will. For example I love Clannad, but I understand when someone does not like it on the grounds that its pacing is slow or some characters get on their nerves. I know the shortcomings of that show and accept them when people point it out. For me a fan is someone who knows and accepts the shortcomings of the show he/she likes and still love it. Sadly its not a view shared in the sub-forums of popular shows.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by Tempester

Maybe it's because your writing style, especially for reviews, appears to be neutral and calm in nature. I also notice that you tend to stress the objective qualities of anime much more than other people. In other words, you do less ranting, and more explaining, and whatever ranting you do is well-worded. People here probably aren't as provoked by your posts as much as those of other members here.

Hah. Well I try not to attack what people like more than I do attack why the execution of what they like could have been better. No point in criticizing K-On! for being pure fluff after all. Although I do notice that my posts which tend to be more harmless--that is, I don't expect them to generate any discussion--ended up putting me in more debates than what I thought people would more likely react to. Weird.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

their shows are mediocre to me but largely inoffensive save maybe Lucky Star

I tried to parse this comment and couldn't decide if you thought Lucky*Star was "not mediocre" or "offensive". "Not mediocre" isn't clear-cut either, of course, You could have thought it to be great or terrible. From what I know of your tastes, I'm going to guess that you found it "offensive."

For the record, I found Lucky*Star very variable, with some funny bits and a lot of slow periods. I laughed at the self-referential otaku jokes like Konata attending a concert by Hirano Aya or her performance of "Hare Hare Yukai" in the coffee shop. I did like the Lucky Channel segments, too. I found Akira's smoking and generally obnoxious self-aggrandizement a pretty funny parody of idols.

[relentlessflame]

I already basically posted about this, but three things:

1. The staff are aware that certain posters go too far in defending the shows they like. Many of them have already been put on notice, and have been receiving bans that you may not have seen. We will continue to go after people who damage the conversation environment on this forum in one way or another. When you encounter such a poster, do not retaliate or reply -- just report it. Sometimes we may not take action on a particular post for various reasons, but we are watching the patterns, and will take action on these kinds of cases.

2. Please understand the dynamics of a forum revolving around entertainment: people will tend to gravitate towards things they like because most people want to be more entertained by the show than by the debate. This Forum is not a debate club, but it is a place where debates can (and should) occur. All opinions are welcome (so long as they're stated respectfully), but the reality is that people with like-interests will still congregate. If you want to offer a clearly-contrary opinion in such an environment, you must be diplomatic if you want people to listen to you and not get their back up. You may find that annoying because you want to just bluntly state whatever you think and "let the best argument win", but the tendency will always be that "the nail that sticks up will be hammered down". If your opinion sticks up too much, expect to be hammered.

(I know some people who are philosophically opposed to this on a deep personal level, as if the world "shouldn't" work this way... but I honestly believe this is human nature, and I can't see what we as a staff could do to make it work in any other way, excepting what I said in point 1 above about people who go too far. Operating a debate club would require you to be massively selective about who you let in, and we just can't/won't do that. People who want to debate have to coexist with those who just want to talk with fellow fans (even if they don't agree on everything), and some sort of balance (imbalance) is achieved. And it seems to me that, even "in nature", negative opinions are less welcome than positive ones, because humans don't like to be told no or to be made to feel like they're wrong. When it comes to subjective opinions about entertainment, can you really be wrong anyway? If you state your case respectfully enough, though, open-minded people should concede that there are other reasonable ways of looking at it. That doesn't mean everyone's open-minded, but keep in mind that's also a two-way street.

The way you state your opinion can make all the difference in the world. In many of the cases where the staff have to intervene, it's not because of the content of the opinion, but rather the tone in which it was expressed.)

3. Remember that rep is always arbitrary, and there are no rules about how it's used, only about the comments that are made. If someone is being abusive in their comments, please report it. But, we don't require to have a good reason to give you positive rep either. It's 100% arbitrary and baseless, hence shouldn't be taken seriously. If you let a bunch of negative rep make you feel like you're being "targeted", then you've "let the terrorists win", as it were.

[Larthak]

As I see it, this isn't really about a fandom or anything of that sort (that's just a motivator). These kinds of people are simply too close-, or narrow-minded to accept any other "truth" than their own. If they love something, you can be sure they'll defend it as long as the Sun shines. One thing is helping the unsure by explaining what the show is about, but bashing others for not liking it? That's just childish no matter how silly their own reasons might be/seem.

That being said; Animesuki is a site with thousands of users, thousands of different personalities. You can't expect to get along with everyone. You can, however, report them, ignore them, or just leave the heated discussions if there's no other way around it, right? (ninja'd by sneaky RF)

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Remember that rep is always arbitrary, and there are no rules about how it's used, only about the comments that are made. If someone is being abusive in their comments, please report it. But, we don't require to have a good reason to give you positive rep either. It's 100% arbitrary and baseless, hence shouldn't be taken seriously. If you let a bunch of negative rep make you feel like you're being "targeted", then you've "let the terrorists win", as it were.

My overwhelming impression, after scanning through the thread, is that this is really just another appeal to scrap the reputation system, since the perceived threat of being "targeted" comes from being a victim of mass negreps.

From that angle, I wonder if it is indeed time to do away with the system for good, given the rash of complaints of late. In the end, I'm mainly concerned about preserving an environment that's conducive to robust discussion, and if people are getting so worked up about a stat that doesn't actually matter, then I see little benefit in keeping the rep system. It's producing more angst than fun, basically.

As for the actual problem raised in this thread, I can only say it hasn't occurred to me the extent of "balkanisation" in AnimeSuki. In all my years here, I have never found myself embroiled in such kinds of, let me blunt, childish argument. That's the only reason I have stuck with this forum for so long. On reflection, I realise this is mainly because I don't watch most of the shows that would draw your typical 4chan /b/-tard, and am therefore generally unaware of their presence here in AnimeSuki.

Some members are well aware that I can be fiercely critical but, even so, I seldom get "attacked" for my opinions. In fact, I've even been repped for some of them. So, I can honestly say I don't have first-hand experience of this alleged problem, much less have any clue about whether it constitutes a growing trend. My only advice to those who feel targeted would be the same as what I've been told by a colleague who writes op-eds for a local paper: Grow thicker skin.

[SaintessHeart]

^ +1.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

My only advice to those who feel targeted would be the same as what I've been told by a colleague who writes op-eds for a local paper: Grow thicker skin.

But......but growing thicker skin......makes them insensitive.......

[Kyuu]

If you ask me - maybe you should (or shouldn't) -- "debating" over series preferences is a waste of time, on the premise that everyone has their likes/dislikes and favorites. If people like things over other things, well, more power to them: at least, they know what they like.

Yet, there are things worth arguing about. For example:

'I'm right, therefore you're wrong for not agreeing!' culture

With this following topic, if you're arguing on my set of points, you will receive a torrential amount of resistance to this idea:

I still stand on the concept of "non-Japanese anime", where people and cultures outside of Japan (including Americans) can produce anime on their own -- IF -- they acquire the same or similar skill sets as those in Japan. So far, there is nothing like this in existence. But, I digress on the notion of "someday"... perhaps; and so few have opened up to this concept, as most cling to the notion of anime as being a Japanese product only.

And, I won't care if the entire anime community rags me on this one. So, I'll save this talk on another day.

Regardless, if anyone is daring enough to start up an anime studio outside Japan, then you have the unique opportunity of "pioneering". And, I offer this idea for free. I neither have the talent nor resources to even try. So, good luck to anyone who even tries.

[Reckoner]

Aye this is exactly the wrong sort of approach I do not advocate at all. The conversations get neutered enough by this sort of coddling that is being demanded. I think too much mod action is going to kill the conversations far more.

The reputation system is a gimmick, I get tons of negs every week. If you hate the system, turn it off. Believe me when I say this, people don't respect me anymore just because I have a few more green bars and the mods don't give me anymore leeway when I cross the line.

If you feel someone is making you feel unwelcomed in a thread and is directly slighting you. Just report them. It's easy.

Otherwise, what's the big deal? Are you 7 years old? Someone told you to stop watching their show because you criticized it? This discourages you from posting? Really?

I don't know. I've always been a believer in stating one's mind, as long as a degree of respect is maintained, so this thought process is a bit foreign to me. I agree with TLR's notion: grow a thicker skin.

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

My overwhelming impression, after scanning through the thread, is that this is really just another appeal to scrap the reputation system, since the perceived threat of being "targeted" comes from being a victim of mass negreps.

I'll have to admit. The fear of receiving these "negreps" actually curbed my forum behavior. So, the system does work to some degree.

===

And finally. Reading our OP's post - which I normally don't do on the basis of TL;DR...

"Gang Warfare" in A.S.? I'll just shake my head on that. As far as "anime" is concerned -- there's no such thing as "loyalty" to a series. Like 'em. Hate 'em. To each his own. If someone happens to dislike something that you like... get over it.

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Aye this is exactly the wrong sort of approach I do not advocate at all. The conversations get neutered enough by this sort of coddling that is being demanded. I think too much mod action is going to kill the conversations far more.

I agree with this for the most part. As much as I despise and discourage the "stop hating what I like" mentality, it's still freedom of speech until it crosses the line. Animesuki is already heavily moderated as it is, so if stricter moderation turns the site into another TVTropes, I'll be packing my bag and leaving. As a person who is quite used to /a/, I'll take flames over excessive moderation any day.

I'll still whine about this community, though, because I can.

[Last Sinner]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

My overwhelming impression, after scanning through the thread, is that this is really just another appeal to scrap the reputation system, since the perceived threat of being "targeted" comes from being a victim of mass negreps.

No...that was not my point. I dont care much about the rep system at all. If e-peen is what a person lives for, so be it. I want no part with that. A person with one green block next to their name can be just as pertinent or constructive as someone that has hit the rep cap.

My point simply was that part of modern fandom that really disgusts me is that a good deal of anime fans think they deserve to be sheltered from any form of criticism and that they are better than anyone who disagrees with them. But clearly that seems to be too much for a good deal of people to comprehend or live with. Again, my point was I didn't want a culture where those who liked a show but had a couple of issues with it weren't instantly grilled for not being unquestionably loyal or daring to think. If policing goes both ways, then that's enough.

On reflection, I realise this is mainly because I don't watch most of the shows that would draw your typical 4chan /b/-tard, and am therefore generally unaware of their presence here in AnimeSuki.

I think AS is far from reaching that level of vitriol and I have enough faith it never will.

Some members are well aware that I can be fiercely critical but, even so, I seldom get "attacked" for my opinions. In fact, I've even been repped for some of them. So, I can honestly say I don't have first-hand experience of this alleged problem, much less have any clue about whether it constitutes a growing trend. My only advice to those who feel targeted would be the same as what I've been told by a colleague who writes op-eds for a local paper: Grow thicker skin.

And you think I haven't either?

My skin is very thick. My patience is substantial. However, simply saying the way to handle a problem is to simply endure it only reinforces the idea that those berating anyone who disagrees with them in any way are justified and that they should continue to do so regardless of the consequences. Simply hitting the ignore button is almost a mirror effect of what fanatics are doing - blocking out any irritant that make's one life uncomfortable. It doesn't make the problem go away - it amounts to living in a glasshouse and allows the problem to continue. Haters have been policed - and should be. As long as the fanatics who unleash their armada on someone who doesn't agree with their fantasy of a perfect world within their fandom also get policed, I'll be content.

In a nutshell - police both the flamer and the 'bubble boy.' That's all I ask for. People deserve a place to be honest and not feel like the Thought Police will swoop down on them the moment they open up.

[j0x]

Originally Posted by Tempester

As a person who is quite used to /a/, I'll take flames over excessive moderation any day.

well imho /a/ or 4chan in general is fine like that since its all Anonymous, the identity is not expose since all of the people posting are just same identity called Anonymous

its quite different on forums like AnimeSuki where people's identity are expose (not fully but more expose) you can identify a forum poster by his/her avatar (display pic) or forum name and even forum post counts and reps are expose to help you identify or have their own uniqueness, so what im saying here is that identity exposure is the reason for moderation, although im not really supporting excessive moderation though

“Do everything in moderation, including moderation.” - Benjamin Franklin
“Too much of anything is bad” - Mark Twain