Code Geass Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[SuperKnuckles]

This is why people like Suzaku and the token Britannian soldiers are quite far apart in their ideologies if you think about it.

If the entire army was composed of those who truly cared for the civilians and the implications of killing them, then they would not have went through with it.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Pracharat

What will American do to their President if nuke was "accidentally" launch from their underwater silo and killed 200,000 civilian?

Blame it on skynet. It's human nature to put the blame on other people to avoid taking responsibility (As others have pointed out, Lelouch IS responsible for this massacre and therefore liable).

This is why people like Suzaku and the token Britannian soldiers are quite far apart in their ideologies if you think about it.

You'd think they'd be suspcious of Euphie, especially after she was in a "private" discussion with Zero and shot her general. Eitherway we can't miss the massacre now can we?

Lelouch at this point has crossed the rubicon.

BTW what happened to C2 after she knocked out Suzaku and the bodyguards? She could've stopped Euphie easily but didn't.

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Lelouch at this point has crossed the rubicon.

Well put.

I have questions for those of you that have already viewed it, since I can't understand too much Japanese. How was the arrangement between Zero and Euphemia set up? Was it a public ordeal, or was it secretive; how many people know about it?

Passing blame onto Lelouch is really dependent on how serious you feel this 'crime' is. On one side, he had no intention of Geassing Euphemia to murder all those people (though he may have Geassed her for alternative reasons), and on the other, he's been handling 'radioactive' material and should have taken more precautionary steps. Lelouch IS taking responsibility for it, albeit not in a 'clean', civil or moral fashion. Nonetheless, he knows he has to step in and establish himself on the matter otherwise Elevens will lose faith in him, and his goal of destroying what he believes to be 'bad' will drift further away. He's not consciously deciding to use the situation to his advantage; he's put someone he cares somewhat about in major jeopardy and now he's really given her no way out except death.

[JediNight]

Basically the only people that know about the deal at this point are Euphemia and Lelouch himself.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=229

[Whitemoon648]

All i can say about this episode is . What a turn of events. Eventhough Lelouch and his kind heart didnt want to chose that path, he ended up chosing it. From the preview of the next episode seems to be something to Look forward to.

[SuperKnuckles]

This event will force Lelouch to reconsider his blatantly two faced dealings with the public and private life persona. I just know it.

Of course, this could have happen due to the complicated relationship between him and Euphie as well.

But I just feel sorry for Euphie who had absolutely no say in this mistake.

[ccardoso]

Anyway when Suzaku touched CC to help her he saw Marianne: something similiar happened with Lelouch and he saw CC's past memories. Does this mean that Marianne is in CC's memories? If that's the case it's quite meaningful.

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by Whitemoon648

Eventhough Lelouch and his kind heart didnt want to chose that path, he ended up chosing it.

Kind heart eh? He's been playing with fire and rolling on thin ice. It's only been up to this point that he hasn't made any mistakes. And because he's let his conscience influence him in this one, he's been badly burned for it.

[ccardoso]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

Kind heart eh? He's been playing with fire and rolling on thin ice. It's only been up to this point that he hasn't made any mistakes. And because he's let his conscience influence him in this one, he's been badly burned for it.

Anyway this could be the decisive step to make the revolutionary forces liberating Japan from the Britannia's soldiers. This massacre won't go unpunished and the one who will take all the blame is Euphemia: she's a walking dead and someone who will take her life. Lelouch or some random civilian: someone who survived the massacre of the stadium or some relative too. The blame will fall on Britannia as a whole too so the revolts will spread through-out the entire Japan making it the perfect occasion for Zero and friends to attack Britannia and kick it out of the country.

[Whitemoon648]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

Kind heart eh? He's been playing with fire and rolling on thin ice. It's only been up to this point that he hasn't made any mistakes. And because he's let his conscience influence him in this one, he's been badly burned for it.

I think he has a kind heart and strong conscience. For him to counter the situation at hand ( after What Euphie did in last episode), was to order him to do what she end up doing in this episode. This situation now is really favorable for him. He was in the dead end. If he accepted Euphie's deal, He would have to disband Ootbk. If he didnt accept it he would become the enemy ( as been stated many times in both episodes ).

1)Now he will become the hero of japanese people, who is trying to save them.

2)Also He did go to Euphie and he did try to stop her, which showed that Zero was actually trying to cooperate, which again puts him in a better possition and he will gain more popularity. He has a reason for all on attack against Britinia ( originally he mentioned his purpose as hero of justice and not a rebel so he couldnt act against Cornelia . But now he can do it and can also call it for the sake of Justice).

3)Other countries such as EU ( famous for advocating equal rights all in this series) and Chinese federation might move in and attack Britinia.

Even with knowing that he could achive all of these, he didnt want for it to happen. It shows he has a kind heart and strong conscience.

I like Zero better better than Kira, because he isnt as cold heart as him.

P.S. I hope we see some grunt Oobk units in the next episode too. It would be too unrealistic if Cornelia with all her power and many units goes down against just Shinkensen.

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by ccardoso

The blame will fall on Britannia as a whole too so the revolts will spread through-out the entire Japan making it the perfect occasion for Zero and friends to attack Britannia and kick it out of the country.

Agreed. I do believe the situation benefits him... but to describe Lelouch as having a kind heart? Sure, in this episode he's stepped in to defend the Eleven who was kicked around. Sure, he's saved civilians. But on the opposite side, he's been manipulating people left and right. He's killed people (terrible people yes). He hadn't had to consider the feelings of others up until the point which Shirley's father fell victim to the landslide. I'm just saying, he's definitely got a conscience, but he's no saint.

Originally Posted by Whitemoon648

For him to counter the situation at hand ( after What Euphie did in last episode), was to order him to do what she end up doing in this episode. This situation now is really favorable for him. He was in the dead end. If he accepted Euphie's deal, He would have to disband Ootbk. If he didnt accept it he would become the enemy ( as been stated many times in both episodes ).

Euphemia didn't call for Zero's death. She merely did what she believed was in Lelouch's best interest, despite not knowing what it was that Lelouch desired in rebelling. Granted, it wasn't intentional what Lelouch did to Euphemia, but no doubt, when he decided to align himself with the proposal he was planning to use her in some manner. Does he necessarily have to disband the Order? They won't be given reason to fight back anymore, although, they can do other things that can disrupt the empire without having to use physical violence. It's not how Lelouch would prefer to do things, but it still works for him nonetheless. He didn't design the order around liberating Japan; he used a more flexible term, "justice fighter."

I like Zero better better than Kira, because he isnt as cold heart as him.

I don't see it. I seriously don't. Lelouch isn't focused on the welfare of the Japanese. That is not to say that he is heartless. He still has a conscience, but he's focused on a bigger picture. And Zero doesn't hesitate to deceive, manipulate and murder people. It's not a bad thing at all since that is how his character is. But given his nature, that discredits him as having a 'kind heart'. The only real 'heart' in him left, rests with his sister Nunnally, and no one else really (even if he has played favorites). Compared to Kira, I hate to say it but Lelouch is the devil. Who's more annoying to me? Kira is of course, but not because he's evil (how he's evil I have no clue).

1) He has more support now. But most of all, he didn't want to put EUPHEMIA in this position. Not so sure about the Elevens, but it affected him no doubt when they called out to him for help. He is responsible in a way for their deaths, but he isn't guilty (it wasn't his intention and he did not commit the act).

2) He still cares about Euphemia. She is probably the only half-sibling who he has really cared about. Of course he's going to try to stop her, because it wasn't how he wanted to use her.

3) Is this necessarily a good thing? Certainly Britannia has made itself a target for impressing its influence on other people, but if you take Britannia out of the picture, someone somewhere else will try to vie for power. It still could in fact be a good thing though.

[JediNight]

Whitemoon: Somehow I don't think Lelouch can just shrug off the death of 200,000 innocent people like that. And all the Japanese in the stadium would have been a lot of the most sympathetic people to the Order's cause. Remember that Lelouch said that only those that are ready to kill should pick up a gun, and he hasn't done anything evil to bring about the death of tons of civilians. It's obvious that some did die in the landslide, but that wasn't as directly brutal as this, and we see with Shirleys father that there were unintended deaths that he thought he was okay with until it hit close to home.

[Li Jianliang]

Originally Posted by JediNight

Remember that Lelouch said that only those that are ready to kill should pick up a gun...

The actual quote is, "Only those who are prepared to be shot can shoot".

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

He's not consciously deciding to use the situation to his advantage; he's put someone he cares somewhat about in major jeopardy and now he's really given her no way out except death.

Something does occur to me here. It's been said that Geass gives no extra powers to the affected person. So, for Euphie's Geass to end, it's not actually necessary to kill all Japanese people; it's only necessary that she believes they're all dead.

Lelouch could probably work with that, given the opportunity; unfortunately, since the Britannian troops cheerfully accepted Euphie's orders and she's now leading them, he has almost no practical way of non-lethally restraining her while he figures something out.

Of course, Lelouch could probably also end the Geass by killing himself, but that would be tantamount to choosing Euphie's welfare over Nunnally's; although he does care for Euphie, he's not going to do that.

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by JediNight

It's obvious that some did die in the landslide, but that wasn't as directly brutal as this, and we see with Shirleys father that there were unintended deaths that he thought he was okay with until it hit close to home.

He seems to be more conflicted with hurting those around him and associated with him, ie. Shirley and her father, Suzaku, and Euphemia. No one else seems to receive the benefit of Lelouch's good-will.

Originally Posted by Guppy

Of course, Lelouch could probably also end the Geass by killing himself, but that would be tantamount to choosing Euphie's welfare over Nunnally's; although he does care for Euphie, he's not going to do that.

It's interesting that you raise this point. Has this ever been the case? That Geass is somehow related to a 'leader' and if that person is no longer in existence, everyone is released from their orders. I can't seem to recall exactly if this was cited in the show, though it sounds very very familiar.

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

He seems to be more conflicted with hurting those around him and associated with him, ie. Shirley and her father, Suzaku, and Euphemia. No one else seems to receive the benefit of Lelouch's good-will.

In this sense, I think he's a pretty normal human. I don't think Lelouch is exactly indifferent to the suffering of others, or he wouldn't bother to intervene on behalf of random Japanese being kicked around by Britannians. However, the fact that he's not as politically naive as Euphemia means that he'd be paralysed if he permitted the welfare of people he doesn't know to affect his decision-making, and he clearly knows this.

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

It's interesting that you raise this point. Has this ever been the case? That Geass is somehow related to a 'leader' and if that person is no longer in existence, everyone is released from their orders. I can't seem to recall exactly if this was cited in the show, though it sounds very very familiar.

I honestly don't know; I'm pretty much speculating on the basis that Mao's power was shown to dissipate when C.C. killed him.

You're right that it's by no means certain, though, and Lelouch would have to take that into account as well. There'd be nothing worse than killing himself and leaving Euphie still psycho - absolutely nobody would be in a position to protect Nunnally then.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

It's interesting that you raise this point. Has this ever been the case? That Geass is somehow related to a 'leader' and if that person is no longer in existence, everyone is released from their orders. I can't seem to recall exactly if this was cited in the show, though it sounds very very familiar.

I don't think this has ever been stated. After all - he has no way of testing it

[JediNight]

About CC and her Geass powers: It's not directly apparent why her power reacted to the guards the way it did. Having given Lelouch the contract that appeared in his left eye, it makes sense that she would grip her left eye when Lelouch's Geass acted up. They are obviously linked on some level. And Suzaku and the first guard did touch her directly -- but the other 2-3 got the Geass look just from being nearby. So maybe it was just an outpouring of power related to Lelouch's Geass upgrade.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by JediNight

About CC and her Geass powers: It's not directly apparent why her power reacted to the guards the way it did. Having given Lelouch the contract that appeared in his left eye, it makes sense that she would grip her left eye when Lelouch's Geass acted up. They are obviously linked on some level. And Suzaku and the first guard did touch her directly -- but the other 2-3 got the Geass look just from being nearby. So maybe it was just an outpouring of power related to Lelouch's Geass upgrade.

Well, if she could mindrape Suzaku sending her power trough metal (Lancelot), i think it is possible for her to send her mindrape signals trough ground as well.

[-KarumA-]

oooh my gawd, just saw the episode and it is wickedly awsome!
i loved the way they handled Lulu's Geass change, specially the outcome of it, Euphie killing everyone

at the end of the episoe Euphie is still in the stadium right?
i thought Suzaku would go after her to stop her... apprantly not.. he's going after zero (?)

Cornelia is pissed, damn i would like to see the outcome between Euphie and Cornelia now and hopefully some awsome mecha action next week, á la strategy lulu style (somehting ive missed for quite a while)