Military, Authority & Decisions In MSLN series

[Arkeus]

Nah, not at all.

TSAB isn't said to "Rule" anywhere. It is unknwon what is its relation to the "administered" world, much less the non-administered ones. Even Midchilda had its own internal policies and so on.

It is much more heavily hinted that TSAB is a sort of police to make sure no ones implode the galaxy by playing mad scientist, coupled with a more humanitarian sides, like NGOs and Reserves of wildlife.

Yuuno was an example maybe of such a treasure hunter, i believe.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Or as noted above they simply teleport like you know the Wolkies did all the time during season two.

That's fine and dandy for mages. What about the normal people?

Originally Posted by Tk3997

It implies nothing of the sort the fact you THINK it implies spacecraft exist simply shows a lack of imagination.

Considering I imagine things we haven't seen, whereas you only stick with what you have seen, the one with a lack of imagination is not me.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

What the lack of ships combined with the above fact really implies is that most travel in the TSAB is done by teleporting and spacecraft are used only in very rare specailised instacnes.

In this context the use of airports and planes also makes sense as it's likely the teleporters only go to a few key areas on a planet and you then use normal means to move about it. Hence Caro took teleporters to Mid and then caught a plane for the last leg.

That's nice for individual transportations. Now tell me how the bad guys in Force 01 got everything ranging from massive equipment to trucks to their site using public transporters. Oh, and if teleporters are such an accepted and widely used form of transportations, might as well add why people still use cars and helicopters. Or why Caro, as you said, 'caught a plane for the last leg.'

Originally Posted by Tk3997

Hardly even if we assume ships exist, despite zero evidecne, there's no reason for ARMED ships to be common. Indeed no sane goverment would want it's smaller compnents to have forces that could challange it.

*Shrug* The EU doesn't seem to have any trouble with this. There's this little thing called 'trust.'

Originally Posted by Tk3997

"Absence of Proof is not proof in itself."

Nor is absence of proof proof of its inexistence.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

First off any world outside the TSAB would be isolated and small with a tiny and probably technically inferior fleet, hardly a threat.

Now you are assuming the TSAB to be the only government that controls multiple worlds.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

This is... stupid beyond words. You don't annex something and then let them keep a large armed force outside of your control, poltics does not work that way. Either the entire navy is scrapped on entry or it's turned over the TSAB fleet for it's use, either way the planet is not going to be allowed to keep it.

You're still stuck on the whole 'if its not our ships out there, its dangerous' ideology. I'd love to see you in the EU with that level of paranoia. Seriously, look on the bright side. A world having its own military would free up TSAB troops to deploy elsewhere, lightening the load for the Bureau. The world is an administered world now, bound by whatever agreements the TSAB and that world have made.

Trust, Tk. Trust.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

-Strong Military

... So?

Originally Posted by Tk3997

-Aggressive Foreign policy with regards to its ideals and system of government

Define 'aggressive'

Originally Posted by Tk3997

-Perfectly willing to barge into independent states to serve its own interests

The level of this is highly debatable. America attacks countries without valid reason for their own goals disrupting social order and causing huge casualties, the TSAB moves in stealthily, only when a world is in dire need of their help, and tries to prevent casualties to the point of using an idea cooked up by nine year olds because it has a zero-casualty rate.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

-Sole hyperpower dwarfing anything else in its political environment

Sole known hyperpower.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

-Large nation composed of many ethnic groups and nominally, buy not functionally independent political bodies.

Bull. Even Mid itself has a Belka governed region. Governed.

Originally Posted by Tk3997

-A strong, but not controlling religious streak which can also be a bit militant…

The TSAB has a religious streak now? Since when? You honestly don't mean the Saint Church, do you?

[Wild Goose]

It should be pointed out that the European Union is not so much as a nation, but rather as a joint gathering of like-minded European nations who figured that being one big happy trading family would do well for their economics.

If the EU were truly one united nation, you wouldn't get such dissenting views such as Germany (non-combat roles, stay in base do nothing and grw fat on beer and wine shipments), England (let's go hunt Terry, boys), Denmark (Dead Taliban is always a good thing), for just one example.

[Keroko]

Neither is the TSAB a nation. Or a government for that matter.

[Wild Goose]

The point can be debated till cows come home; however the Bureau does seem to have more bite compared to the EU, in that the military is under the Bureau's control and oversight, rather than each planet raising their own forces (though logically there must be some provision for local law enforcement, unless that's Bureau too).

Personally i've always felt the administration bureau was a sort of East Indies Company in how it's running things.

[Keroko]

Oh, I agree that the TSAB is hardly the same as the EU. However, I also find them to be vastly different from the USA.

They're a different kind of government from either, picking bits and pieces from both to form something of their own.

[Kikaifan]

The Saint Church has its own autonomous or semi-autonomous armed forces, does it not?

I suppose the obvious comparison would be to the Swiss Guard in the Vatican...

[al103]

Originally Posted by Kikaifan

The Saint Church has its own autonomous or semi-autonomous armed forces, does it not?

I suppose the obvious comparison would be to the Swiss Guard in the Vatican...

With TSAB Admiral/General/? in the head I wouldn't call them autonomous...

[Kikaifan]

Carim holds military rank in the TSAB? I thought she was just... I don't know what I thought she was. Not a ranking member of the TSAB military, anyway.

...I guess that explains why they let her hold Hayate's limiter release. I'd always wondered about that.

[Keroko]

The Belkan forces certainly aren't wearing TSAB uniforms though. And Schach outranks those troops, despite holding no TSAB rank of her own.

[al103]

Originally Posted by Keroko

The Belkan forces certainly aren't wearing TSAB uniforms though.

Like all OTHER branches and subbranches of TSAB.

Originally Posted by Keroko

And Schach outranks those troops, despite holding no TSAB rank of her own.

Only, you know... going by that Fate, Nanoha and whole bunch of others are not too. Fate is enforcer, Teana is enforcer... only they hold different other rank with Fate being captain. Schach is church knight... what rank she hold besides that is not shown, but it doesn't mean she do not have one.

[Wild Goose]

As I recall, it was mentioned somewhere that Carim was one of the Board of Directors of the TSAB, a sorta civillian-ish person with a certain amount of authority and a formal uniform. (Which admittedly looks good on her.)

Fate's rank of Captain was a courtesy rank when she transferred into the Ground Forces and Riot Foce 6, out from the Enforcers. It was a rank given for administrative purposes. 40k example would be Gaunt getting the additional rank of Colonel on top of him being a Commissar.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by al103

Like all OTHER branches and subbranches of TSAB.

Yes, but if they are 'TSAB Ground Forces' shouldn't they wear TSAB Ground Forces uniforms? The Belkan Saint Church has autonomous functions, as indicated by the fact that they have their own regions governed by them. Why could the troops then not be troops belonging to the Saint Church, but when needed work under the flag of the TSAB, similar to how each European country has its own army, but when needed can work together under the flag of the EU.

[Wild Goose]

Except i don't recall any official EU deployments with the EU nations dumping their nation patches for the EU flag, and as for working together, well Afghanistan and the Horn of Somalia have shown how the different EU nations pursue different paths.

[PhoenixFlare]

Originally Posted by Kikaifan

Carim holds military rank in the TSAB? I thought she was just... I don't know what I thought she was. Not a ranking member of the TSAB military, anyway.

...I guess that explains why they let her hold Hayate's limiter release. I'd always wondered about that.

Carim is actually revealed in one of the early episodes of StrikerS (around 2 to 4, I believe) to be a member of the Board of Directors of the TSAB, so I'd say that she ranks pretty high in the hierarchy to have privileges similar to an Admiral to permit limiter release. As for whether the Board actually has another hierarchy, that remains to be found.

[arkhangelsk]

Oh, and if teleporters are such an accepted and widely used form of transportations, might as well add why people still use cars and helicopters. Or why Caro, as you said, 'caught a plane for the last leg.'

He pretty much flat out says there that in his theory, the airports are for planes for medium and short range travel.

*Shrug* The EU doesn't seem to have any trouble with this. There's this little thing called 'trust.'

Actually, it is called "lack of control." If the EU tried this with its members, it won't have any.

Now you are assuming the TSAB to be the only government that controls multiple worlds.

Obviously, you can insist that we weren't allowed to see all of known space. However, their actions are strongly against the possibility that they had to deal with anything even remotely approaching a peer for a very long time.

You're still stuck on the whole 'if its not our ships out there, its dangerous' ideology. I'd love to see you in the EU with that level of paranoia. Seriously, look on the bright side. A world having its own military would free up TSAB troops to deploy elsewhere, lightening the load for the Bureau. The world is an administered world now, bound by whatever agreements the TSAB and that world have made.

Here's an alternative. That world pukes up what budget and other resources are currently allocated to its defense force to the TSAB, who takes the resources and uses them in its centralized forces. From the viewpoint of the TSAB, what's the disadvantage of this alternate plan?

The level of this is highly debatable. America attacks countries without valid reason for their own goals disrupting social order and causing huge casualties,

America at least is still bound by legal and moral notions that other countries are sovereign, thus their whole campaign before going into Iraq.

the TSAB moves in stealthily,

The TSAB doesn't even notify the local government despite the Clear and Present Danger.

only when a world is in dire need of their help,

OK, that part is true, and though a certain officer could have acted sooner ... well, that man's nominally a Terran himself so what can you do...

and tries to prevent casualties to the point of using an idea cooked up by nine year olds because it has a zero-casualty rate.

After their complete ignorance of the concept of sovereignty, and then doing only a perfunctory effort, and getting all set to nuke us and not putting in (having?) enough brains to think of a variant that 9 year old girls could think up, you actually think well of them for grudgingly agreeing to it once it was spoonfed to them?

If America is a criminal, it is a criminal that still remembers the law exists. The TSAB already has forgotten the concept of crime in comparison, which is why they don't really have an "aggressive foreign policy". (Except in the viewpoint of their victims).

Bull. Even Mid itself has a Belka governed region. Governed.

Tibet is also an "Autonomous Region". As a Dutch, what are your comments on this?

The TSAB has a religious streak now? Since when? You honestly don't mean the Saint Church, do you?

It is IIRC the most popular religion or something similar...

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Except i don't recall any official EU deployments with the EU nations dumping their nation patches for the EU flag, and as for working together, well Afghanistan and the Horn of Somalia have shown how the different EU nations pursue different paths.

I'm not talking about 'dumping their patches' or working the same way, I'm talking about working co-operatively. In case you hadn't noticed, the Church forces moving in StrikerS hadn't exactly 'dumped their patches' either, they were still wearing Church uniforms when they worked alongside the Bureau to deal with Jail.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

He pretty much flat out says there that in his theory, the airports are for planes for medium and short range travel.

Yes, and my question was why. If teleportation is the common accepted mode of travel, why not everywhere?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Actually, it is called "lack of control." If the EU tried this with its members, it won't have any.

Are all of you so paranoid? Is it really that hard to believe that Europeans simply trust their neighboring countrymen?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Obviously, you can insist that we weren't allowed to see all of known space. However, their actions are strongly against the possibility that they had to deal with anything even remotely approaching a peer for a very long time.

Non aggressive forces may play around as well. Take the Saint Church, a religious government with its own military forces, blatantly stated to be the biggest religion in the Nanohaverse.

Not everything that is big immediately needs to be hostile.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Here's an alternative. That world pukes up what budget and other resources are currently allocated to its defense force to the TSAB, who takes the resources and uses them in its centralized forces. From the viewpoint of the TSAB, what's the disadvantage of this alternate plan?

Spreading of troops. You can't simply create mages, so the TSAB has to spread what they have. If a world can take care of itself with its own technology, why not let them? Make agreements, negotiate the terms and limits of the forces. This allows the TSAB to deploy less of its own, leaving their mages to be placed where they are more needed.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

*political morality snip*

We can debate this some other time, but my point was they are not the same. Although are opinions are opposite, you do seem to agree there.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Tibet is also an "Autonomous Region". As a Dutch, what are your comments on this?

Could you clarify? I'm afraid the point escapes me...

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

It is IIRC the most popular religion or something similar...

Yes, but it's not part of the TSAB, so I don't see how it gets linked as such.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Are all of you so paranoid? Is it really that hard to believe that Europeans simply trust their neighboring countrymen?

I think it was Reagen or someone like that who said "Trust, but cut the cards." Further, the trust argument is easily inverted. Generally, economy of scale kicks in with militaries, and overall if the EU can pool its current budget into one big pile it probably will get more capability for the same number of Euros, and the combined budget might pass theresholds required for feasible deployment of entire capability types they don't have (for example, maybe a US-sized carrier of their own). But because no one trusts the EU or each other that far, there is no progression towards one.

Non aggressive forces may play around as well. Take the Saint Church, a religious government with its own military forces, blatantly stated to be the biggest religion in the Nanohaverse.

I admit missing the part where the Saint Church became a government rather than just a religion. And if it is, the Saint Church seems ultimately subordinate to the TSAB (Carim is apparently a Major General), so if this is true the Saint Church is something of a military government, and assuming superior-subordinate relations that we can recognize, any independence would be "very very relative".

Spreading of troops. You can't simply create mages, so the TSAB has to spread what they have. If a world can take care of itself with its own technology, why not let them? Make agreements, negotiate the terms and limits of the forces. This allows the TSAB to deploy less of its own, leaving their mages to be placed where they are more needed.

Yes. And if said world hands over its military forces along with the money to maintain them, the TSAB will have MORE to spread around.

Could you clarify? I'm afraid the point escapes me...

You seem to be saying that the TSAB is more tolerant because it has an "autonomous region". I use Tibet to suggest this may not be so true. The more soy if what you say above is true.

Yes, but it's not part of the TSAB, so I don't see how it gets linked as such.

For one thing, while the Saint Church isn't exactly the "State Religion" or only approved religion, it is clearly integrated much more than the average religion in say the US>

But I don't think that's Tk's tack - rather, IMHO he's more comparing the the TSAB (or TSAB "managed" territory) as a State to the United States, rather than the TSAB government to the US government.

[al103]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Yes, but if they are 'TSAB Ground Forces' shouldn't they wear TSAB Ground Forces uniforms?

Because they are NOT Ground Forces? And even within one branch subbranches can have different uniforms like Subaru's rescue unit, Nanoha's Testing and Training and so on (IIRC Subaru one is in Ground Forces, but uniform is similar to Nanoha airforce subbranch one - only difference gray/white). I actually think Church Knights are territorial unit of Belkan Self-governed Region, but still under TSAB roof as all others are.

[Tk3997]

I'm not really that interested anymore as I think I made my point with regards to my take on the civil war plotline and this is all beyond what I really cared about, but I did want to just clear one thing up with Jimmy so this is posted from his last FFT post.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Ok, so maybe they'd be able teleport bulk cargo easily after all. However, this makes civilian freighters even less neccessary in Bureau controlled space. But if the Bureau had any brains, it'd keep an eye on the technology needed for larga scale teleportation, just to make sure villians don't set up gigantic teleport smuggling hubs in their backyard.

Well yeah that would be a problem, but keeping an eye out for fixed installation that probably suck power on a massive scale and have to be planet based is easier then chasing small ships around that could be hiding on any uninhabited planet with ten lightyears of a target system.

Hey, I'm trying to agree with you that transporting enough non-magical weapons to keep a civil war going is impractical here!

Sorry if I came off as confrontational sometimes that happens without me even really intending it. I can get worked up pretty easily sometimes when debating. Anyway it just seemed odd to me that one would so easily dismiss the transporters as not being able to beam bulk cargo despite no real mention of a limit and instances of certain mages being able to move large masses. (Not the same thing admittedly, but we know the technology they use can more or less imitate the effect so it hardly seems unreasonable to suppose it would have the same capability if built to have it.)

Powerful summoners are rare, yes? Those on the scale of Lutecia, able to shuffle entire armies of drones around, are even rarer. They have better things to do than play FedEx.

The TSAB might think so, but say what you will the canon TSAB does not seem to force people into service. Really if you think about it not everyone that happens to be a powerful mage is going to think that a life of dare doing and possible death is for them. Such mages would surely also be massively sought after and fought over by said FedEx type companies and could probably make huge heaps of money. Given that fact I’d think a fair number of such people would be floating around, but would probably only be used when other options aren't available and would demand a premium I'm sure

Just wanted to say that since I seemed to have not quite get across what I meant to Jimmy, but I'm done now.

I suppose I should comment on this too.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

But I don't think that's Tk's tack - rather, IMHO he's more comparing the the TSAB (or TSAB "managed" territory) as a State to the United States, rather than the TSAB government to the US government.

This is pretty much true and the direct comparison was mostly meant in jest though given it was mixed with a serious post that should have been more clear. Having said that more or less really any federation style state would do for the comparison, but as my home nation and one of the best know with a large military active in foreign affairs the US is an easy comparison to use.