Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Well, yeah, that too....I think I worked out pretty damn quick that it was not going to work that way in HF.

Spoiler for HF:

However, part of that change in mindset is to go from "I must save everyone" to "I must save Sakura (and then save everyone who is left once Sakura is OK)". Admittedly, that's somewhat later on in the route, but it's certainly a potential cause of a few bad ends.

Spoiler for HF:

I admit to still being in the "save everyone" mentality even after playing all the way through HF. I understand the idea behind HF and the fact that out of the routes Shirou is probably the happiest in HF (as he actively pursues his own ideal instead of the one he took from Kiritsugu, though he seems perfectly happy with it in Fate and UBW), but in the end, for me it was still agonizing to have to sacrifice so many people just to save one girl. One of the few times I really didn't feel satisfied after playing through a game.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Moczo

Spoiler for HF:

As I recall, I think my 'logic' was that I would actively avoid spending time with Ilya on the off-chance that I would then go home and spend time with Sakura instead . Yeah, Paranoid, but I had thought I was being nice enough to Sakura before and that led to Shirou getting eaten.

I... see....

Well, it's not like the bad end doesn't tell you quite explicitly what you did wrong, and

Spoiler for HF:

if you thought that leaving Sakura alone whilst she was seriously ill so you could go out hunting servants with Saber was "being nice enough to Sakura", then you have a somewhat warped idea of what "being nice" is.... Unless you got that bad end without messing up that particular decision, in which case I can understand that mindset.

Spoiler for HF:

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

I admit to still being in the "save everyone" mentality even after playing all the way through HF. I understand the idea behind HF and the fact that out of the routes Shirou is probably the happiest in HF (as he actively pursues his own ideal instead of the one he took from Kiritsugu, though he seems perfectly happy with it in Fate and UBW), but in the end, for me it was still agonizing to have to sacrifice so many people just to save one girl. One of the few times I really didn't feel satisfied after playing through a game.

Well, the thing is, HF shows that you can't "save everyone". That's the whole damn point. Either Shirou goes off and kills innocent people because they're a potential danger, or he protects Sakura even though she's killing others (without his knowledge).

Having said that, in HF you never actually make a decision to "sacrifice so many people just to save one girl". True, it does turn out that way, but Shirou did not know that at the time. So, really, those deaths are no different from the deaths of any other random innocents (which happen in such games all the time).

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Moczo

Spoiler for UBW again:

Oh! That's right, I also pried too much when asking Issei about Caster and got mind-control stabbed. That one creeped me the Hell out too.

I got that one too. Pretty funny.

Originally Posted by Kanon

The MoS ending is still my favourite "bad" ending. I didn't get it on my playthrough though, as I always tried to do my best to save Sakura.

What does MoS stand for? I'm drawing a blank.

Originally Posted by GDB

Are you sure that was UBW? I thought you didn't really interact with her all that much in that route.

It might have been Fate then. I don't remember honestly. It's the one where she's at Shirou's house waiting for him.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

What does MoS stand for? I'm drawing a blank.

Mind of Steel.

Spoiler for HF:

The bad end where Shirou lets Rin kill Sakura and follows his father's ideal, intending to kill Rin, Ilya and everyone else in order to win the war (no idea how the hell he actually intends to do that, though, since he lacks a servant...).

It might have been Fate then. I don't remember honestly. It's the one where she's at Shirou's house waiting for him.

Spoiler for Ilya:

It's HF. That's the only route that has an Ilya-based relationship bad end.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

I... see....

Well, it's not like the bad end doesn't tell you quite explicitly what you did wrong, and

Spoiler for HF:

if you thought that leaving Sakura alone whilst she was seriously ill so you could go out hunting servants with Saber was "being nice enough to Sakura", then you have a somewhat warped idea of what "being nice" is.... Unless you got that bad end without messing up that particular decision, in which case I can understand that mindset.

Spoiler for HF:

I don't remember the exact train of decisions that led me to it, actually. I definitely didn't think I'd been insensitive enough that she'd subconsciously eat me, but I obviously did something wrong!

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Moczo

Spoiler for HF:

I don't remember the exact train of decisions that led me to it, actually. I definitely didn't think I'd been insensitive enough that she'd subconsciously eat me, but I obviously did something wrong!

Well, yeah, obviously.

Spoiler for HF:

The easiest way to get to it (and, I suspect, the most likely for someone who didn't like Sakura much) is by going on patrol instead of looking after her (which loses (or, rather, fails to gain) you five Sakura points and, thus, makes missing that bad end impossible). But, the Tiger Dojo that follows it makes it quite clear what you've done wrong in that case.

[RadiantBeam]

Spoiler for HF:

Choosing to stay home with Sakura was awesome. Not only was it a way of making sure you kept your points with Sakura, but Saber's reaction to it was absolutely priceless. "A reward for your considerate Servant", indeed. It made me want to reach through the computer screen and give her a huge hug.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Mind of Steel.

Spoiler for HF:

The bad end where Shirou lets Rin kill Sakura and follows his father's ideal, intending to kill Rin, Ilya and everyone else in order to win the war (no idea how the hell he actually intends to do that, though, since he lacks a servant...).

Ah, okay that's in the church and all.

Spoiler for Ilya:

It's HF. That's the only route that has an Ilya-based relationship bad end.

I remember now.

Spoiler for HF:

I chose to spend time with Sakura instead of going shopping or whatever.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Well, yeah, obviously.

Spoiler for HF:

The easiest way to get to it (and, I suspect, the most likely for someone who didn't like Sakura much) is by going on patrol instead of looking after her (which loses (or, rather, fails to gain) you five Sakura points and, thus, makes missing that bad end impossible). But, the Tiger Dojo that follows it makes it quite clear what you've done wrong in that case.

Spoiler for HF:

I can't be sure, because unfortunately I did take a pretty long break from the game about halfway through HF, so the latter half of the route is much fresher in my mind than the beginning. But I would like to think that I wasn't stupid enough to pick such a blatantly wrong choice unless I was intentionally trying to get Shirou killed . Most likely I just spent a little too much time picking other girls when the options came up.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Moczo

Spoiler for HF:

I can't be sure, because unfortunately I did take a pretty long break from the game about halfway through HF, so the latter half of the route is much fresher in my mind than the beginning. But I would like to think that I wasn't stupid enough to pick such a blatantly wrong choice unless I was intentionally trying to get Shirou killed . Most likely I just spent a little too much time picking other girls when the options came up.

Well, to be fair, a few of the choices you cane make while playing through HF really give the feeling of making it more of a Rin route, or a Saber route, or a Rider, or an Ilya route. Sometimes it's hard to keep in mind that you're supposed to keep the romantic developments focused on Sakura.

[Cherry_Lover]

Spoiler for HF:

Originally Posted by Moczo

I can't be sure, because unfortunately I did take a pretty long break from the game about halfway through HF, so the latter half of the route is much fresher in my mind than the beginning. But I would like to think that I wasn't stupid enough to pick such a blatantly wrong choice unless I was intentionally trying to get Shirou killed . Most likely I just spent a little too much time picking other girls when the options came up.

Well, looking at the flowchart, you need 9 Sakura points to get past that, and you get 1 in actually getting onto the HF route and 5 for choosing to stay at home with Sakura. So, you only need another 3. However, there are only actually 5 available, and one of those comes from skipping the meeting with Ilya, so you actually have to make two decisions (each worth 2 points) correctly (you have to ask Sakura to stay over yourself, and you have to also check on her yourself rather than making Taiga do it).

So, it's actually pretty easy to hit that one although, really, it should be pretty obvious that you should look after Sakura yourself rather than making Taiga do it.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Spoiler for HF:

Well, looking at the flowchart, you need 9 Sakura points to get past that, and you get 1 in actually getting onto the HF route and 5 for choosing to stay at home with Sakura. So, you only need another 3. However, there are only actually 5 available, and one of those comes from skipping the meeting with Ilya, so you actually have to make two decisions (each worth 2 points) correctly (you have to ask Sakura to stay over yourself, and you have to also check on her yourself rather than making Taiga do it).

So, it's actually pretty easy to hit that one although, really, it should be pretty obvious that you should look after Sakura yourself rather than making Taiga do it.

That... actually makes a lot of sense. I'm an unabashed Taiga fan, so I can easily see myself picking out options that sound like they would give her more screentime, even though they weren't the most sensible choice... and of course Ilya too, God I probably missed all of those points



In unrelated news, finally started up UBW with the RN patch! The first new image actually came surprisingly early, and it was a decent enough starting point:

Spoiler for UBW Spoilers, both RN and otherwise:

Archer taking aim to snipe Berserker with a Broken Phantasm. Not exactly jaw-dropping, but certainly quite cool and a logical place to put in a picture.

But then, Fate's first new image was a badass shot of Saber dueling Assassin, and then I was treated to a long series of close-ups of Saber's face looking at stuff with gentle expressions before any more decent additions popped up. Nothing wrong with Saber's face, of course, but... a strong start doesn't mean a strong finish, is what I'm getting at. If you're going to give me pictures, give me pictures of something epic!

As for the route itself, it's been so long that I forgot how... well, cute Saber was in this route. Ironically, she really seemed to bond into Shirou's life and humanize a lot faster than in her own story; just a few days in, and she's already kind of teasing with Shirou, following him to school against his will while basically saying "Lalalalala, I can't hear you!" to his orders for her to go home. And her little sleepover with Taiga and Sakura. Seeing the girls bond a little is always fun. Yay for the lion-tiger-cherry blossom alliance! Hmmm... Sakura needs a cat to be too...

And that scene at the school with Rin is just probably the most fun action sequence in the game. Not the most awesome, god no not even close, but the most fun. Watching her slowly lose it and go from 'Gandr shot' to 'Gandr rifle' to 'Gandr machine-gun' as the chase goes on, Shirou keeps saying dumb things and she gets more and more exasperated just makes me chuckle... and hey, I remembered that you're supposed to dive down the hall, not the stairs!

[aldw]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Also, as a human, we naturally care about some more than others. For Shirou not to fall apart, he has to care about people, and it's impossible to care about someone if you'd let them die as soon as they become a potential danger to others. Plus, who gave Shirou the right to decide to kill someone because they're a potential danger?

In some situations it may be very necessary to do such distasteful things, zombie fiction alone has plenty of examples, like Highschool of the Dead or Shaun of the Dead where friends who've been bitten ask to be killed before they become a threat to those around them, or the plot of 28 Weeks Later, taking into account different character relationships. It's definitely not a clear-cut issue by any means.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by aldw

In some situations it may be very necessary to do such distasteful things, zombie fiction alone has plenty of examples, like Highschool of the Dead or Shaun of the Dead where friends who've been bitten ask to be killed before they become a threat to those around them, or the plot of 28 Weeks Later, taking into account different character relationships. It's definitely not a clear-cut issue by any means.

Yes, I can accept that that happens, but it does not apply to Sakura's situation. When someone is zombified, there is no way to save them. With Sakura, they had no reason to believe that she wasn't saveable, at least the first time around, and the second time Shirou chose not to kill her, she actually did not kill anyone else (excluding bad guys) from then on.

[Moczo]

Originally Posted by aldw

In some situations it may be very necessary to do such distasteful things, zombie fiction alone has plenty of examples, like Highschool of the Dead or Shaun of the Dead where friends who've been bitten ask to be killed before they become a threat to those around them, or the plot of 28 Weeks Later, taking into account different character relationships. It's definitely not a clear-cut issue by any means.

Well... to be fair, in this case we only know that killing Sakura would have been the most pragmatic decision because we're looking at the route in hindsight. As I recall, when the 'Mind of Steel' option comes up, the only things they know for sure are that Sakura could be used as a puppet by Zouken at any time, and that the worms that allow this cannot be removed without killing her. Therefore the main danger she poses is to Shirou and Rin themselves, and I can easily see them choosing to risk their own lives for the hope of saving their respective love interest/sister.

Now, if Rin had been aware that Sakura was the Shadow at that point in the story, then that's when things get morally grey. Shadow!Sakura's a confirmed danger to everyone in Fuyuki; unintentionally, yes, but she's still responsible for a great deal of death over the course of the story. When that information comes to light, that is when we reach the point when killing Sakura starts to become the pragmatic, 'kill one to save one-hundred' option. But at the MoS junction, Rin didn't know that and so letting Sakura live to try to save her really does make more sense.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Moczo

Well... to be fair, in this case we only know that killing Sakura would have been the most pragmatic decision because we're looking at the route in hindsight. As I recall, when the 'Mind of Steel' option comes up, the only things they know for sure are that Sakura could be used as a puppet by Zouken at any time, and that the worms that allow this cannot be removed without killing her. Therefore the main danger she poses is to Shirou and Rin themselves, and I can easily see them choosing to risk their own lives for the hope of saving their respective love interest/sister.

Yeah, exactly. In hindsight, you can quite easily argue that killing Sakura would have been the 'right' thing to do because we know that Sakura was the shadow and would, ultimately, end up killing people (although I'm not remotely convinced that MoS would have had a better ending (for the world as a whole) than HF did, because I simply can't see how Shirou can save everyone without a servant and with Rin possessing a more powerful, more awesome version of him who has every reason to want to kick his ass), but at the time they had no real reason to believe that, if she did go insane, she wouldn't be stoppable (hell, Shirou even resolves to make sure that Sakura dies with him if she attacks him).

Now, if Rin had been aware that Sakura was the Shadow at that point in the story, then that's when things get morally grey. Shadow!Sakura's a confirmed danger to everyone in Fuyuki; unintentionally, yes, but she's still responsible for a great deal of death over the course of the story. When that information comes to light, that is when we reach the point when killing Sakura starts to become the pragmatic, 'kill one to save one-hundred' option. But at the MoS junction, Rin didn't know that and so letting Sakura live to try to save her really does make more sense.

Well, if they'd known that Sakura was the shadow, I don't think there would have been much moral greyness at all, actually. Rin would have killed Sakura without a second thought, and Shirou would have been either unwilling or unable to stop her. And, for that matter, if Sakura had known that, she would have either killed herself or (more likely) got Zouken/someone else to do it a lot sooner, because she wasn't willing to endanger Shirou that way and she wouldn't want to harm innocent people.

They'd have been forced to deal with the situation immediately, one way or another. Either they'd kill Sakura, or she would agree to confront Zouken on the off-chance that he knew some way to stop the shadow that was non-fatal to her (and that he was willing to implement). None of them, including her, would be willing to accept the idea of her being responsible for a monster that would harm others. Admittedly, they don't know that the shadow is a danger to innocents at that point, but nonetheless Sakura would not accept its existence as long as it endangered Shirou.

[aldw]

From my perspective during my first playthrough, even though I was mostly indifferent to Sakura, I still felt intuitively that Sakura could be saved during the church scene (especially since sociopaths like Kotomine tend to spin things for their own ends anyway), and I know that if someone like Shiki or Ciel (or Ryougi and Tohko particularly) had been around that they would be able to provide a different perspective to approach the situation (which is why I like stories that take such approaches into consideration, e.g. 'A Thin Veneer'). Many of the great solutions in history do often come from the unexpected.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by aldw

From my perspective during my first playthrough, even though I was mostly indifferent to Sakura, I still felt intuitively that Sakura could be saved during the church scene (especially since sociopaths like Kotomine tend to spin things for their own ends anyway)

Well, yeah, exactly. And, similarly, if you think purely logically choosing to kill Sakura the second time around was quite obviously the wrong decision too, because Zouken simply would not have suggested it if it didn't fit in with his plans.

I mean, Nasu quite obviously intentionally wrote it so that people wouldn't overly blame Shirou for his decisions (or, indeed, blame Sakura), because the story relies on you sympathising with him and with her, and it wouldn't work if Shirou had any real reason to be blamed for what happened.

Incidentally, the one person who undoubtedly is guilty (other than the villains) is Ilya. She knew exactly who the shadow was from well before even MoS, and yet deliberately avoided mentioning it because she knew it would destroy Shirou and turn him into Kiritsugu. But, she's always shown to be somewhat self-centred (albeit sympathetically, due to her past), so that fits pretty well with her character.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Incidentally, the one person who undoubtedly is guilty (other than the villains) is Ilya. She knew exactly who the shadow was from well before even MoS, and yet deliberately avoided mentioning it because she knew it would destroy Shirou and turn him into Kiritsugu. But, she's always shown to be somewhat self-centred (albeit sympathetically, due to her past), so that fits pretty well with her character.

So doing something to protect another, even if for your own reasons, makes you self-centered? If so, doesn't that make pretty much everyone except Taiga self-centered?

Though to the prior discussion, yeah any decision to kill the main character of the arc is obviously the wrong choice. That much should be obvious to anyone.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by GDB

So doing something to protect another, even if for your own reasons, makes you self-centered? If so, doesn't that make pretty much everyone except Taiga self-centered?

No, but keeping quiet about an entity that could quite easily kill thousands of people because you don't want to hurt your 'big brother' is.

Though to the prior discussion, yeah any decision to kill the main character of the arc is obviously the wrong choice. That much should be obvious to anyone.

Yeah, but I meant even ignoring that fact. Even if you forget that Sakura is the heroine and love interest of the route, and thus clearly needs to be protected, it's still obvious that taking advice on what to do about Sakura from Zouken is a damn stupid idea....