[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Neofio3]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Are you really sure they are children? I always thought Mion/Shion were 18 and Keiichi and Rena 17.

Keiichi and Rena are around 15, while Mion/Shion are around 17 or lower. Their children compared to the Umineko cast.

[Jan-Poo]

what's your source? That sounds wrong to me, I'm fairly sure Keiichi and Rena are only one year younger than Mion/Shion

[Neofio3]

... and sources are linked.

[Jan-Poo]

those are disputable estimations. It looks like there isn't any official source of their age

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...ld#post2270563

[Marion]

Keiichi was 16 if I recall correctly.

Anyways Neo makes a point - Higurashi the major cast were children under 18. In Umineko most major characters are already considered adults.

[Jan-Poo]

the romances we are talking about are between Shannon George Kanon Jessica and Battler.

With the exception of George their age ranges between 16 to 18 years, that doesn't seem a big leap compared to your estimation.

[ameskitty]

I see very little difference between ShionxSatoshi and JessicaxKanon, though.

Spoiler for Higurashi (meakashi-hen):

You know, minus Kanon not being missing and Jessica not going batshit insane trying to get him back (as far as we know ). Plus we don't really know whether Satoshi reciprocated and in general they weren't as close XD. Mostly comparing the maturity here, of course.

But yeah, I'd agree that most of the other major pairings are rather adult compared to the ones in Higurashi, and I think that some elements of them might be more central to the plot than we've been thinking.

[Neofio3]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

those are disputable estimations. It looks like there isn't any official source of their age

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...ld#post2270563

Disputable based on your estimation. Whereas near-every online source estimates them to be aged so (really, there are a *lot*).

With the exception of George their age ranges between 16 to 18 years, that doesn't seem a big leap compared to your estimation.

Regardless, the age of adulthood being 18, they would not be "children" anymore. In your example of higurashi, the *only* characters even approaching their age are Shion/Mion, and them being 18 is... arguable in the first place. What's more, in Higurashi, Keiichi himself is under 18, which makes any romantic pairing involving him involve one with a child. Its not the case with Battler, for example, who's 18, nor with any of his potential pairings, who are all 18 or older.

[ijriims]

My personal choice and preference and prediction about the final result of shipments is:

Jessica declared her love for Kanon and he accepted. They are willing to wait for Kanon to be 18 years old and marry. (Of course Natsuhi opposed in the beginning but conceded in the end. Krauss was open from the beginning.)

Shannon and George married to each other. (Again, Eva opposed but conceded in the end.)

Piece-Battler. No one. But Meta-Battler with Meta-Beatrice. (or maybe Ange???)

All other couples were retained.

Let's see if I will be proved wrong in the end.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

http://www.stagnightofthedead.com/bl...-rocks-cannes/

Guy at the bottom appear to have most of his face removed. He doesn't look dead in the shot because he's being photographed for a what I assume in a make up test. Now put him in a dark room early in the morning.

It looks like the left half of the head was burned rather than crushed. Of course it could be much like removed if the background is also dark enough. But it is not that simple. With half head left, you will see the brain from the side and blood, fresh spilling from the inside as well. Personally, I don't believe any make-up could have made half of the head go missing if it was used on your own body.

Somethings I want to say: it took unnecessary risk to use your own body to fake your death. Using a dummy would always be a safer option and you could run around on the Rokkenjima to set up things rather than trapping yourself in the garden shed.

Using your own body to fake death was not a good choice at all, compared to use a pseudo-body or another human body. And given that the murders were all planned and Shannon was living on the island, then she could have time and opportunity to slip some pseudo-body to the island much early. Using her own body sounded like she was forced to use her own because she did not prepare a fake one.





Another and more important thing is that if Shannon did not die and use her own body to fake death. Then whether Battler saw it was again irrelevant. He saw the body, he could also identify the "body" as corpse. He did not see the body, he still identified the "body" as corpse.

In this case, in order not to contravene the red texts "身元不明死体について、その身元を全て保証する。即ち、替え玉トリックは存在しない！", one has to resort to the fact that technically speaking, the "body" was not a corpse, and was not "unidentified" at all. Second, the definition of body-double trick is the stricter one that applied for using corpse to fake one's death but not anything made similar to one's corpse. The case that Shannon used this trick without contravening the red texts meant that the intended interpretation of the red texts was like this.

Under this interpretation, as long as someone did not use a corpse to fake one's death, then he or she did not contravene the red texts. Battler's perception only confirmed that there was a few things - very close to human bodies, was lying in the garden shed, and Hideyoshi claimed that Shannon's body also lied in there while wearing a diamond ring. The possibility of Battler and other people mistaking somethings for the bodies were not zero, a devil's proof.

So, if Shannon did put that trick, which implied a stricter definition of the red texts. Then Kyrie would also fake her death without contradicting the red texts. While Battler's seemingly detailed description was not relevant since forensic was not his specialty (he commented he saw similar things on TV after seeing the so-called bodies, didn't he?) and he was not in a stable psychological state to carefully access the "bodies" in front of him. And also that day was a stormy and rainy day but not a sunny day, thus the chance of mistaking something as human body always existed (if they had turned on the light, then Hideyoshi probably had a good chance to discover Shannon was faking her death. And what was the reason of hiding Shannon's death after Hideyoshi had discovered so many bodies in the garden shed. You believed he still thought it was a joke, after seeing Gohda and Krauss losing half of their heads).

You all would attack this argument by insisting that Battler's perception was perfect that he would never mistake anything similar to human bodies. Or one could say that the definition of body-double trick includes the use of anything made to look like one's own corpse except using one's own body. But the definition of body-double trick was never defined by Ryukishi07 so sticking to a stricter or general definition are valid until proven incorrect by Ryukishi07.

I want to present this argument to show that except under the situation there was no body and nothing at all, if Shannon could fake her death without contravening the red texts, then Kyrie had similar probability to fake hers as well. Don't apply double standards on two different people.

Finally, let me add some implication if Shannon did fake her death using this method. It means that Shannon had a cunning mind, was willing to take risk and probably planned all the murders. Kanon probably was NOT her accomplice or there would be no reason to look at the "body" for such a long time if Kanon knew she was not dead. George probably did not know about it or he must be the next Oscar winner. Also, Shannon LOVED George or she had little reason to wear the ring as her half-smashed head already tell us her identity (If she had made up her face to a completely smashed one, then she had reason to wear the ring as it provided additional proof that "it" was Shannon. This put some questions into the pony theory for EP4. If Shannon truly loves George, there was little space that Battler was accountable for the murders.

[Renall]

I've been running some data, trying to compare how people were probably killed and who could and could not have been responsible at a given time. It's still very incomplete, but some observations follow.

1) Technically, it is possible for everyone's deaths in ep1 to be explained even if everyone in the shed is dead. However, the only person who could have accomplished this by himself was Kanon, and you still have to believe a faked death (his own, which the red at least does support). Yet there's pretty much no way Kanon can be the culprit alone without several people appearing suspicious as well (Genji for the Second Twilight reporting of events, Kumasawa for the boiler room, Nanjo and Jessica after his "death"). Of course, Nanjo, Genji, and Kumasawa are stated not to be murderers... and all three of them would have to have been helping Kanon...

If we believe that the "unidentified" corpses are anyone whose face is totally destroyed, Krauss and Shannon become possible if they're faking their death (on the basis that, as half-smashed faces, one or both of them could be using makeup or something). Most people believe Shannon, especially after the anime.

Everyone else has an alibi that prevents them from being the sole killer for ep1. Of course, if multiple killers are involved that gets mucked up.

2) Gohda could have killed everyone in ep2 up to the point of his own death. I once proposed a satirical "Gohda Accident Theory" for ep2. I don't actually think he's a culprit, especially since this is pretty much the only time Gohda ever has this much mobility.

Rosa, Maria, Battler, Genji and Kanon could all possibly still be alive at the end of ep2, but you have to get around the red text about Jessica's room for Kanon. Obviously the other four are still alive.

3) Eva is the only person who could have killed Battler and Jessica. Of course, she doesn't necessarily have to kill them at all.

Unless you buy an adult conspiracy, the First Twilight could only have been committed by Nanjo, George, or Maria.

The only people who could have killed Krauss and Natsuhi are Eva, Nanjo, and Hideyoshi/Kyrie/Rudolf. Of those, I think only Eva and Nanjo would have known where Krauss and Natsuhi were at the time.

4) Ep4 is notoriously confusing. I have determined the following, at least:

Battler can't have killed anyone because of ep5 red. Not that Battler ever really had the opportunity.

Gohda and Kumasawa cannot have killed each other or themselves, at least not plausibly.

George could not have killed Jessica if he is actually dead when she calls Battler. Kind of obvious. To assert George as a possible suspect you have to either claim Jessica was lying about his death, that George fooled her, or that someone told her he was dead and she honestly believed it. "Lying" could have also meant being forced to tell Battler George was dead.

If George is dead where and when he seems to be, he can't have killed Maria. On the other hand, if he was alive when Battler saw him "dead," I suppose he still could have.

Kanon cannot have killed anyone else in "Kyrie's group." If we assume that to be what the magic scene shows us, he can't have killed Kyrie, Krauss, Nanjo, or Shannon. Of course, if "Kyrie's group" is something else, all we can say for sure is that he died before Kyrie. However, placing him as the "ninth victim" lines up perfectly with the First Twilight and Jessica/George (OR Gohda/Kumasawa if they died earlier than those two). On the other hand, if the death order differs from what we've seen, Kanon's death is the only anchor we have... except Kinzo! Eight still living people die before Kanon; Kinzo cannot be a "victim" because Kinzo died of natural causes. This means that, minus Battler, at the moment of Kanon's death six people are definitely still alive, and one of them is Kyrie. The game wants us to believe the other five people are Krauss, Shannon, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa. However, that need not actually be the case. In fact, we can't really be sure Gohda and Kumasawa aren't killed fairly early. If Kyrie's group is as we're shown, then two other people are still alive. Again, we're left to assume it's Gohda and Kumasawa. But what if it isn't?

Technically, Gohda and Kumasawa could've killed anyone as long as someone let them out of the shed. However, there would have to be at least three people involved to get them out of the shed unless some other exit exists (which is unlikely).

At the time of Beatrice's appearance to Battler in this episode, there is no proof that anyone has yet died. Battler sees George and assumes him to be dead, and he sees Gohda and Kumasawa "hanging." None of these deaths are conclusive or red yet, and we know that the way Kumasawa and Gohda died was unrelated to the "hanging."

Battler only finds some bodies the first night, and others the next day. Is it possible that some people survived into Oct. 5, and Battler simply didn't find them before they died?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Renall

Battler only finds some bodies the first night, and others the next day. Is it possible that some people survived into Oct. 5, and Battler simply didn't find them before they died?

It is possible, however only the people in the prison are plausible. Battler sees the 1st twilight victims and Maria dead right after talking about his sin - so those 7 are ruled out.

But even then none of them could have killed Battler, due to Beato's final riddle.

[Ithekro]

Unless under the island counts as something other than on the island.

Probably too much of a stretch.

[ijriims]

Thanks for Jan-Poo for showing me the translated Extra TiPS.

I have read some of those. The Valentine day and white day gave me no clues at all. Especially intrigued by Lambda and Bern's letter, as well as Witch's Tanabata.

Beatrice has an extremely strong determination was shown to be the case, even surpassing Tanako in Higurashi. She declared she was a witch right away. And aimed to create anything by herself. Combined with TIPS in EP4, it seemed that her determination only came after meeting Maria.

Beatrice did care Maria so much.

And Bern was a bitch. To make the miracle occur in the final episode, Battler or someone has to snatch her post of "Witch of Miracle". Thus in Chiru, the ultimate battle in the meta world is between Battler and Bern.

What do you think?

[luckyssol]

I agree with 1 and 2 but I do not agree with some parts of 3. The magic scenes show that Genji killed Shannon and Kanon. Isn't it possible that Genji is responsible for some of the first twilight murders?

Regarding number 4:

Originally Posted by Renall

Kanon cannot have killed anyone else in "Kyrie's group."

We were lead to believe that since their heads were half destroyed they must have been killed instantly. What if someone destroyed half their heads after they had already died to cover up the real cause of death? Since Battler didn't see any other signs of injury then perhaps they were killed by something similar to what killed Maria. The possibility of the culprit mutilating corpses after death has been a theory since episode 1.

The state of Maria's corpse when it was discovered is evidence that some kind of poison was used at some point. Whatever poison killed Maria did not violate Knox Article 4. This raises suspicion towards the one who would have the easiest access to lethal poisons. Nanjo.

If it's not certain that the head wounds were the cause of death then it's possible that Nanjo tried to stick Kanon with a poisonous needle but Kanon grabbed the needle and stuck him with it first (like Shion did to Rika in Higurashi). Kanon was then shot and killed by Nanjo's accomplice who was late arriving at the scene. Nanjo died from the poison after Kanon had already died. Therefore, Kanon killed someone else in "Kyrie's group". Nanjo's accomplice hid all the needles and blew off half their heads to hide what really happened. Kanon's corpse was hid as well. The corpse was hid to raise suspicion on Kanon(it did in Battler's case).

Everyone's corpse ended up being found where the magic scenes showed they died at. We were not even shown a magic scene regarding where Maria went. I think it was mentioned that she went to that chapel(?) but somehow ended up in the mansion(which was locked). However...

Originally Posted by Episode 4

The old well had a firm cover on it. The cover was an iron grill. The gaps between the bars were perhaps 20 centimeters across. You could peer inside, but it really wasn't something a human could pass through.

Battler searched and couldn't find any lock or way to open it. I don't think Kanon's corpse could be at the bottom of the well due to this.

Originally Posted by Renall

Is it possible that some people survived into Oct. 5, and Battler simply didn't find them before they died?

It's possible but I don't see how that could help us find the causes of death of the ones who could have survived since they all ended up dead anyway.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Unless under the island counts as something other than on the island.

Probably too much of a stretch.

That's dangerously close to one of my theories for the "knock" in episode 5.

Originally Posted by ijriims

And Bern was a bitch. To make the miracle occur in the final episode, Battler or someone has to snatch her post of "Witch of Miracle". Thus in Chiru, the ultimate battle in the meta world is between Battler and Bern.

What do you think?

I think Bern is a bitch as well and you've moved closer to the truth.

[Neofio3]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Thanks for Jan-Poo for showing me the translated Extra TiPS.

I have read some of those. The Valentine day and white day gave me no clues at all. Especially intrigued by Lambda and Bern's letter, as well as Witch's Tanabata.

Beatrice has an extremely strong determination was shown to be the case, even surpassing Tanako in Higurashi. She declared she was a witch right away. And aimed to create anything by herself. Combined with TIPS in EP4, it seemed that her determination only came after meeting Maria.

Beatrice did care Maria so much.

And Bern was a bitch. To make the miracle occur in the final episode, Battler or someone has to snatch her post of "Witch of Miracle". Thus in Chiru, the ultimate battle in the meta world is between Battler and Bern.

What do you think?

It was only a scant 2 games ago when Bernkastel went from "Don't lose hope. Fighto! Fighto! Nipaaa!" to "I'll deny a little girl's happiness forever! Bwahahahaha!".

I think ascribing motivations to the witches at this point (aside from meta-Beatrice, who is almost certainly not evil) is a little too early. There's still 3 games left to go.

[luckyssol]

I hope Battler runs over Bern's face with a lawn mower a few times. I don't see how Ryukishi would give us an ending where the villain is not punished. Bernkastel is the villain. She really needs to pay for what she did to Ange.

Lambdadelta's motives are more interesting to me at this point.

[Ithekro]

Bern seems to have her own thoughts about what to do, and it might not be what Battler...or the players, think is the right thing to do. However her motives may be to get Battler to try to actually win, instead of doing what he's doing since he seems to loose sight of what he's suppose to be doing from time to time. He's suppose to be finding the truth...rather he's been too busy denying the witch that he stopped looking for what happened instead of just coming up with things to keep the magic from being real.

In other words, he's off track and Bern's kicking him to get back on track. Ange gives him a new reason to actually win, and Erika (perhaps as a unintended effect) has finally reminded him that he's after the truth, not just find something that could happen (like Natsuhi being the culprit), but what really happened.

[Riza-chan]

I wanted to post some of my thoughts about Erika:

I had a theorythat Erika falling out of the boat wasn't an accident but suicide. Maybe Erika was bullied or mistreated by her parents and was a deprssed and emotionaly wrecked kid. In all the other worlds she jumped and died but always she realised that in truth she doesn't want to die but it was already too late. And thats why Bern chose her and made a miracle happen so Erika survived. Erika was really grateful to her and agreed to do what Bern asks of. And even more Erika decides that solving the mistery will be the approval that she is allowed to live. And it wasn't her true personality she showed on the island but she just wanted to change herslef and started acting different from how she used to be. She wanted to be the cool heroine who always able so slove all problems, very different from the girl she used to be.

Sounds kinda stupid, I know. Just thought this up to make Erika to be more likable, at least for myself.

[Dlanor A. Knox]

hmmm... I was thinking about ep.5 lately and I think that I found out a lil.

Erika is an accomplice of the real murderer, thus she doesnt violate Knox rule 7: the detective must not himself commited the crime. the reason why the previous murders (from ep 1 till 3) where witch like was because Erika couldn't make it to the island because of the typhoon, Bern-chan gave her in ep 5 the miracle to survive.

or something in that direction ^^;;

[MeoTwister5]

If we were to take Erika as a piece in the game board as someone who would literally be trying to perform an agenda, specifically that of Bern, it would make sense that she would have some relation to the actual perpetrator. Her end goal is that of her master, that the murders were done by human means, and being an accomplice that attempts to pin it to any human does sort of validate her stance.

Of course the issue is as to WHY she needed to frame Natsuhi. If she's simply there to prove that a human did it, she doesn't need to frame anyone and just prove that the human did it whoever it is. If she does have ties to the perpetrator and intentionally wants to frame Natsuhi... WHY? I would assume her own motives would be tied to this person who claims to be the baby Natsuhi abandoned years ago. That was when I remembered that there was still the matter of the old servant that fell with the baby.

If Erika as a piece has direct ties to the murder that does not violate Knox's rules, It is most probable that she is a descendant of the old servant who fell with the baby and seeks revenge on her as well.