AnimeSuki Forums

idofgrahf · 2006-04-13, 18:45

We make war so we may live in peace, as the old saying goes. War is simply a clash between ideals, I think I'm right in taking this piece of land from you, you think that it is wrong and we duke it out to see who is right. We express our different ideals through fighting and in turn express our indiviudality.

That said, Zeon did break the Antartic treaty by trying to nuke odessa, in the end a treaty is nothing more then ink on a page if you have the power to resist retrubution for breaking that treaty.

But war isn't so bad, it does propel us technologically forward, like WWI and WWII did. We just have to find a better way to kill each other during the war and turn that tec for civilian use after it.

Newtyped · 2006-04-13, 18:59

and we must pick our wars.
a war in its sense is a form of art,
it expresses ones emotions
if u go out and kill ppl for no reason thats no war
zeon killed ppl because it had a vision
can u call them evil for having a vision, and a lack of morals?
or better yet, a lack of sympathy?

idofgrahf · 2006-04-13, 19:13

you can call hitler in having a vision, was he insane yes, do any normal people have sympathy for the likes of him I'd say no. Saying I have a vision of a world ruled they Aslyan's does not mean others cannot blame you for your actions. Can we call Hitler evil, most would say hell yeah, and Zeon is no better then him if not worse because he at least did not kill people in the billions.

Newtyped · 2006-04-13, 19:16

can u mesure a figures evil by the number of ppl he killed?
no its not the number
its the intent of each killin
hitler was killin ppl due to his predjudice against them
zeon killed ppl to win a war

WhereAmI · 2006-04-13, 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by idofgrahf

...War is simply a clash between ideals...

I thought it was a clash between people

Newtyped · 2006-04-13, 19:24

no,
the whole point of this topic is who do u empathise with most basically
have any of us lived on space colonies (well besides me of course

) no, so its nothing personal with us. its how we relate to these issues...

Scorch · 2006-04-13, 19:24

The Federation also broke the antarctic treaty by violating the neutrality of side 6 (The Riah Republic), so you can't really claim that it's just the Zeon.

Before the war, Zeon aided the Riah republic in seeking independence through raids on Federation ships and so on. The Federation responded by making sure the other sides couldn't break away.

During the OYW, Zeon made the later Titans look gun-shy. However, in a sense, this was really the only option they had open to them. The Federation was garrisoning colonies all over to prevent them from rebelling, while massing military forces at a much higher rate than Zeon could hope to match (30x the resources). Additionally, Zeon was denied some resources which could not be gotten from mining asteroids via the economic blockade placed upon the Republic of Zeon almost immediately upon formation. What can they do when an obviously hostile Federation is massing forces and trying to choke the Zeon economy?

They lashed out in the most horrific way they possibly could. They gassed the Federation garrisons at all of the colonies they could reach, the colonists were "collateral damage". They fought the Federation to a standstill with inferior numbers through their willingness to do anything to win. And they invaded earth to get the resources they needed, as well as to make the Federation collapse. The Federation are commonly portrayed as the good guys, but they have an equal hand in everything that happened by forcing the situation in the first place.

If we're going to stick with WW2 analogies, the Federation is the League of Nations putting huge penalties on the German nation after WW1. It crushed their economy and set the scene for a charismatic leader like Hitler to assume power in the first place. Hitler is directly responsible for many of the horrific things that happened during WW2, but the treaty of Versailles is also to blame for spawning him in the first place.

I find the Federation much more contemptible than Zeon, because they are so disgustingly complacent after the OYW ends. They never learn from their mistakes, they just repeat them over and over. They don't serve the people they're supposed to, they act to suppress them and to maintain their own (the Federation elite) power. Londo Bell is just a less extreme version of the Titans, but it has the same function. By the later wars, the corruption and complacency in the Federation has turned it into a mere shell.

Newtyped · 2006-04-13, 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scorch

The Federation also broke the antarctic treaty by violating the neutrality of side 6 (The Riah Republic), so you can't really claim that it's just the Zeon.

Before the war, Zeon aided the Riah republic in seeking independence through raids on Federation ships and so on. The Federation responded by making sure the other sides couldn't break away.

During the OYW, Zeon made the later Titans look gun-shy. However, in a sense, this was really the only option they had open to them. The Federation was garrisoning colonies all over to prevent them from rebelling, while massing military forces at a much higher rate than Zeon could hope to match (30x the resources). Additionally, Zeon was denied some resources which could not be gotten from mining asteroids via the economic blockade placed upon the Republic of Zeon almost immediately upon formation. What can they do when an obviously hostile Federation is massing forces and trying to choke the Zeon economy?

They lashed out in the most horrific way they possibly could. They gassed the Federation garrisons at all of the colonies they could reach, the colonists were "collateral damage". They fought the Federation to a standstill with inferior numbers through their willingness to do anything to win. And they invaded earth to get the resources they needed, as well as to make the Federation collapse. The Federation are commonly portrayed as the good guys, but they have an equal hand in everything that happened by forcing the situation in the first place.

If we're going to stick with WW2 analogies, the Federation is the League of Nations putting huge penalties on the German nation after WW1. It crushed their economy and set the scene for a charismatic leader like Hitler to assume power in the first place. Hitler is directly responsible for many of the horrific things that happened during WW2, but the treaty of Versailles is also to blame for spawning him in the first place.

I find the Federation much more contemptible than Zeon, because they are so disgustingly complacent after the OYW ends. They never learn from their mistakes, they just repeat them over and over. They don't serve the people they're supposed to, they act to suppress them and to maintain their own (the Federation elite) power. Londo Bell is just a less extreme version of the Titans, but it has the same function. By the later wars, the corruption and complacency in the Federation has turned it into a mere shell.

i believe versailles was just the excuse hitler needed to get ppl to empathise with him. He still may have had similar feelins and goals, tho may have not reached them =/
but really i liked oz :P
is there a place for good ol oz ^^;;
but on topic;
zeon just went about worng with its goals

idofgrahf · 2006-04-13, 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newtyped

can u mesure a figures evil by the number of ppl he killed?
no its not the number
its the intent of each killin
hitler was killin ppl due to his predjudice against them
zeon killed ppl to win a war

Have you even watched MSG? Zeon consider themselves superior and others inferior, they have plenty of predjudice against the earthlings, thats why they call them the earth born elits weither they are wealth or not.

And Hitlers motatives is winning the war, more living space for the superior race was his intention, as far as his troops go, they kill Americans, Russians and British alike, how is that predjudice?

As for Zeon's goals, its wrong to start with, complete dominace of the earth sphere, that I believe includes earth itself in the end thats called dictatorship.

And the federation broke the treaty after zeon, if the other side does not follow the treaty why should you?

Newtyped · 2006-04-13, 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by idofgrahf

Have you even watched MSG? Zeon consider themselves superior and others inferior, they have plenty of predjudice against the earthlings, thats why they call them the earth born elits weither they are wealth or not.

And Hitlers motatives is winning the war, more living space for the superior race was his intention, as far as his troops go, they kill Americans, Russians and British alike, how is that predjudice?

hitler slaughtered millions of jews for no reason =/
thats wut those camps were...

idofgrahf · 2006-04-13, 19:54

zeon's killed BILLIONs of Civilians for no reason, which is worse?

Newtyped · 2006-04-13, 19:56

numbers mean nuthin in murder lik such
its their intent, and how the murders effected every1

idofgrahf · 2006-04-13, 19:59

You are more deluded then I thought if you think numbers means nothing, the dead remains dead, different intent or not, several more billion dead means that much more families destroyed, happiness, dreams, futures gone. Plus Zeons intent is not that different from hitlers, and those colonist died pretty horrible death through gass.

Newtyped · 2006-04-13, 20:01

u dont get it
hitler killed for fun
that is cruel, and uncalled for
it doesnt help his war
Zeon killed to aid the war

Headspace · 2006-04-13, 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by srb

The real problem is that when the Principality of Zeon, a dictatorship, proclaimed independence from the Earth Federation they simultaneously launched a wide-spread nuclear and space naval attack on other colonies.

Zeon, with Degwin and Gihren Zabi, wants complete control of the Earth sphere. They invade Earth in order to gain access to its natural resources and to attack the Earth Federation head on.

The Federation fights a defensive war to prevent their annihilation.

True indeed but Earth's failure to ultimately not reconize zeon as independant was wrong as well. When It comes down to it both parties are equally wrong I belive.

idofgrahf · 2006-04-13, 20:03

Tell me, did Zeon need to kill billions of colonist whom they claim they are fighting for? No they did not, but did it anyways hence they killed for fun as well, they are no different.

Newtyped · 2006-04-13, 20:06

hitler killed for a pure hate of jews...
as riciculus as that is
hitler didnt do that in an intent to cripple the other forces
zeons goal was to rule everything
they figured the less their is to rule, the easier it is to rule.

Scorch · 2006-04-13, 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newtyped

i believe versailles was just the excuse hitler needed to get ppl to empathise with him. He still may have had similar feelins and goals, tho may have not reached them =/

Part of the Treaty of Versailles involved Germany paying huge reparations to the nations they fought against. They didn't have the means to pay this due their country more or less being destroyed during the war, so they resorted to printing money. Germany had inflation that reached up to 3,250,000% a month as a result of this. It pretty much set the stage for the people to be sufficienty enraged and despairing to let a strong authorian like Hitler rise to power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by idofgrahf

And the federation broke the treaty after zeon, if the other side does not follow the treaty why should you?

The dates don't quite work out. Odessa was on November 7th, Riah was on December 13th. It seems highly unlikely that the Federation built a significant research base in barely over a month on a neutral colony. Both sides are guilty of not following the treaty.

SoldierOfDarkness · 2006-04-13, 20:12

The Gryps conflict severely weakened the Earth Federation which Neo-Zeon would later take advantage of. By the end of Char's counterattack, pretty much all conflict had been eradicated with Zeon rejoining the Federation. By this time they enter a generation of peace.

The Federation did their best to keep onto things (Specifically creating Londo Bell which was based on the Titans but in a more humane way).

By the time of F91, the Federation had already entered into a state of stagnation and required militias to do the fighting for them. Their arrogant leadership didn't make things better either.

Eitherway, the Federation has its up and downs (Like any other nation would) but they manage to keep the peace and stability up until they start to decline.

Newtyped · 2006-04-13, 20:13

please explain this fed treaty u speak of...
i dont know much from the msg story (and please dont link me to a site, just explain it -.-)

2006-04-13, 18:45	Link #41
idofgrahf Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: In the fields of elysuim	We make war so we may live in peace, as the old saying goes. War is simply a clash between ideals, I think I'm right in taking this piece of land from you, you think that it is wrong and we duke it out to see who is right. We express our different ideals through fighting and in turn express our indiviudality. That said, Zeon did break the Antartic treaty by trying to nuke odessa, in the end a treaty is nothing more then ink on a page if you have the power to resist retrubution for breaking that treaty. But war isn't so bad, it does propel us technologically forward, like WWI and WWII did. We just have to find a better way to kill each other during the war and turn that tec for civilian use after it. __________________ Even if I go to hell I will live till the end of this world. If the world does not come to an end, then I will destroy it with my own hands! Lacan/Grahf

2006-04-13, 19:13	Link #43
idofgrahf Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: In the fields of elysuim	you can call hitler in having a vision, was he insane yes, do any normal people have sympathy for the likes of him I'd say no. Saying I have a vision of a world ruled they Aslyan's does not mean others cannot blame you for your actions. Can we call Hitler evil, most would say hell yeah, and Zeon is no better then him if not worse because he at least did not kill people in the billions. __________________ Even if I go to hell I will live till the end of this world. If the world does not come to an end, then I will destroy it with my own hands! Lacan/Grahf

2006-04-13, 19:54	Link #51
idofgrahf Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: In the fields of elysuim	zeon's killed BILLIONs of Civilians for no reason, which is worse? __________________ Even if I go to hell I will live till the end of this world. If the world does not come to an end, then I will destroy it with my own hands! Lacan/Grahf

2006-04-13, 19:59	Link #53
idofgrahf Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: In the fields of elysuim	You are more deluded then I thought if you think numbers means nothing, the dead remains dead, different intent or not, several more billion dead means that much more families destroyed, happiness, dreams, futures gone. Plus Zeons intent is not that different from hitlers, and those colonist died pretty horrible death through gass. __________________ Even if I go to hell I will live till the end of this world. If the world does not come to an end, then I will destroy it with my own hands! Lacan/Grahf

2006-04-13, 20:03	Link #56
idofgrahf Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: In the fields of elysuim	Tell me, did Zeon need to kill billions of colonist whom they claim they are fighting for? No they did not, but did it anyways hence they killed for fun as well, they are no different. __________________ Even if I go to hell I will live till the end of this world. If the world does not come to an end, then I will destroy it with my own hands! Lacan/Grahf

2006-04-13, 18:59	Link #42
Newtyped Gangsta Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Ct Age: 32	and we must pick our wars. a war in its sense is a form of art, it expresses ones emotions if u go out and kill ppl for no reason thats no war zeon killed ppl because it had a vision can u call them evil for having a vision, and a lack of morals? or better yet, a lack of sympathy?

2006-04-13, 19:16	Link #44
Newtyped Gangsta Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Ct Age: 32	can u mesure a figures evil by the number of ppl he killed? no its not the number its the intent of each killin hitler was killin ppl due to his predjudice against them zeon killed ppl to win a war

2006-04-13, 19:24	Link #46
Newtyped Gangsta Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Ct Age: 32	no, the whole point of this topic is who do u empathise with most basically have any of us lived on space colonies (well besides me of course ) no, so its nothing personal with us. its how we relate to these issues...

2006-04-13, 19:24	Link #47
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Age: 39	The Federation also broke the antarctic treaty by violating the neutrality of side 6 (The Riah Republic), so you can't really claim that it's just the Zeon. Before the war, Zeon aided the Riah republic in seeking independence through raids on Federation ships and so on. The Federation responded by making sure the other sides couldn't break away. During the OYW, Zeon made the later Titans look gun-shy. However, in a sense, this was really the only option they had open to them. The Federation was garrisoning colonies all over to prevent them from rebelling, while massing military forces at a much higher rate than Zeon could hope to match (30x the resources). Additionally, Zeon was denied some resources which could not be gotten from mining asteroids via the economic blockade placed upon the Republic of Zeon almost immediately upon formation. What can they do when an obviously hostile Federation is massing forces and trying to choke the Zeon economy? They lashed out in the most horrific way they possibly could. They gassed the Federation garrisons at all of the colonies they could reach, the colonists were "collateral damage". They fought the Federation to a standstill with inferior numbers through their willingness to do anything to win. And they invaded earth to get the resources they needed, as well as to make the Federation collapse. The Federation are commonly portrayed as the good guys, but they have an equal hand in everything that happened by forcing the situation in the first place. If we're going to stick with WW2 analogies, the Federation is the League of Nations putting huge penalties on the German nation after WW1. It crushed their economy and set the scene for a charismatic leader like Hitler to assume power in the first place. Hitler is directly responsible for many of the horrific things that happened during WW2, but the treaty of Versailles is also to blame for spawning him in the first place. I find the Federation much more contemptible than Zeon, because they are so disgustingly complacent after the OYW ends. They never learn from their mistakes, they just repeat them over and over. They don't serve the people they're supposed to, they act to suppress them and to maintain their own (the Federation elite) power. Londo Bell is just a less extreme version of the Titans, but it has the same function. By the later wars, the corruption and complacency in the Federation has turned it into a mere shell.

2006-04-13, 19:56	Link #52
Newtyped Gangsta Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Ct Age: 32	numbers mean nuthin in murder lik such its their intent, and how the murders effected every1

2006-04-13, 20:01	Link #54
Newtyped Gangsta Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Ct Age: 32	u dont get it hitler killed for fun that is cruel, and uncalled for it doesnt help his war Zeon killed to aid the war

2006-04-13, 20:06	Link #57
Newtyped Gangsta Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Ct Age: 32	hitler killed for a pure hate of jews... as riciculus as that is hitler didnt do that in an intent to cripple the other forces zeons goal was to rule everything they figured the less their is to rule, the easier it is to rule.

2006-04-13, 20:12	Link #59
SoldierOfDarkness The Dark Knight Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: From the deepest abyss in the world, where you think? Age: 38	The Gryps conflict severely weakened the Earth Federation which Neo-Zeon would later take advantage of. By the end of Char's counterattack, pretty much all conflict had been eradicated with Zeon rejoining the Federation. By this time they enter a generation of peace. The Federation did their best to keep onto things (Specifically creating Londo Bell which was based on the Titans but in a more humane way). By the time of F91, the Federation had already entered into a state of stagnation and required militias to do the fighting for them. Their arrogant leadership didn't make things better either. Eitherway, the Federation has its up and downs (Like any other nation would) but they manage to keep the peace and stability up until they start to decline.

2006-04-13, 20:13	Link #60
Newtyped Gangsta Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Ct Age: 32	please explain this fed treaty u speak of... i dont know much from the msg story (and please dont link me to a site, just explain it -.-)