2012-02-04, 18:28 | Link #27661 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
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Oh, right. Supposedly, the only difference between all of the games, are things that happened between 0:00 Oct. 4 and 24:00 Oct. 5, 1986. So the things happening before that time frame, aren't supposed to change between games (if, in fact, the game takes place on Beato's game board)... I don't really remember where this was said though, and I'm not sure I buy it anymore.
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2012-02-04, 18:34 | Link #27662 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Knowing about it is unnecessary. The Man From 19 Years Ago never actually said anything on the phone that would conclusively link him to that incident, Natsuhi just filled in the details on her own. Battler could have been trying to freak her out with a generic act that just coincidentally lined up with her past.
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2012-02-04, 18:43 | Link #27663 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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I dont really think its that either, but superficially its what it looks like. Really, RK07 said it was solvable by EP4. That wouldn't make sense unless he actually meant that it was partially solvable, that is, who and how are there but its missing the why. In a later interview he said that it took a long while for the why to come out. How long was it? Was it all the way till EP7? I dont remember any mention of Battler sharing views on mystery novels with Shannon at any point of the story prior to EP7. Thats pretty key to what I think happened. This is what I think of the actual "love" in the story. Ever had a good friend you used to have that shared the same interest on something with you? To the point that it was basically the thing that bound you together? Imagine meeting up with that person at a later date. What would be the thing that you'd try to use to spark a conversation again? It would probably be that thing, whatever it was. A sport, movies, novels, etc. Now imagine Yasu or whatever, hears that Battler is coming back to the island. Put yourself in Yasu's shoes. You've been writing amateur mystery stories in your spare time, you have the means to recreate those stories if you wanted to...you plan a surprise for your old friend. I'd personally wouldn't do it with any ulterior motive, In my personal view, I moved on. I dont know about Battler or whether he's move on either, chances point to yes though. Now the day comes up, Battler arrives. In between the greetings and the reminiscing socialization, I ask Battler whether he had read any good mysteries recently. If he answers yes and mentions a few, I tell him that I've taken up amateur writing and offer a rough draft of my latest story. If he accepts, I'll give it to him after the dinner. Post dinner, I'll get all my accomplices and brief them that Battler's taken the bait and that the game will start as prepared. Battler will go to his room and start reading the story. Now put yourself in Battler's shoes. A girl you haven't seen in years, that was a good friend of yours, hands you a story. She warned you that it was pretty gruesome, but that its just that...a story. The story is named "Land Of the Golden Witch" In it there is the tale of the witch Beatrice and how she commits ritual murder as part of her resurrection ceremony. Everyone else in the island was mentioning the witch, even Maria. There is huge painting of her in a hall, your grandfather is absolutely obsessed with her as well. You think to yourself "Well, it looks like Shannon took in this general mood as inspiration for the novel. Its creepy, but understandable". You wake up in the morning to a ruckus. You ask Gohda whats happening, he mentions that they cant find some of the family members. You find this scene eerily similar to what you read yesterday. The "corpses" are found thus confirming your suspicion. How would you react from there on? |
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2012-02-04, 18:49 | Link #27664 | |
Ordinary Magician
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Gensokyo
Age: 31
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2012-02-04, 18:57 | Link #27665 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Battler basically writes himself into the position of the man in that very episode. There really isn't anything that could deny it, its the reason why it was effective. You cant look at him as being the Battler you know. His interpretation makes him TMF19YA and thanks to the nature of the box, it happens. Whatever means he could have used to get the information are irrelevant, as long as it was even remotely possible.
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2012-02-04, 19:06 | Link #27666 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
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Oh, as for that quote, it's this: Spoiler for interview:
All it really says is that, before you reach EP8, the motive should already be there. That much is obvious for us. But, if I remember right, Will said that he found the motive in EP4. Quote:
Also, while you explained why she would show him the story, you didn't explain why she would try to recreate it. Serial murder as a greeting to an old friend, is not something that I would be able to believe, because we have no reason to believe that Yasuda has that kind of personality. Even if she does have that kind of personality, what's the point of having him read the story before you act it out? Wouldn't that just make it much easier for him to find the solutions to the mystery, even if it didn't end up framing her somehow? So, well. Sorry, but I don't really like this theory. |
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2012-02-04, 19:28 | Link #27667 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Exactly. Now how would you react to the events? Would you think this is a game or that Shannon really is going about murdering everyone in the family? You dont really know if that old friend of yours snapped. Or maybe she was one of the victims in the first twilight? What then?
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2012-02-04, 19:28 | Link #27668 | ||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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If I'm not wrong Bern found Lion only in 1 world of the many she checked. However considering the various variants it's pretty absurd that in all the worlds minus 1 Lion/Yasuda ends up always ends up tossed down of a cliff and hidden by Genji in an orphanage. There should be tons of other options... like Natsuhi being the one that slips and fall from the cliff for example or the maid deciding not to follow Natsuhi and so on. However if the premise is that in that world there has to be the Rokkenjima incident it's possible that in an amazingly high number of cases in which Lion isn't born the Rokkenjima incident will happen, while, if Lion is born, only in one case the Rokkenjima incident will take place. Bern however discharged all those worlds in which the Rokkenjima incident didn't take place because of no interest to her (and because this spares her from checking an infinite number of worlds) and hid the premise of her search merely because she's being well... quite a monster in Ep 7. Quote:
However, if she believes the injury Natsuhi caused her would stop her dream of being loved to become a reality she might hate Natsuhi. I've the feeling Natsuhi didn't really toss her down but felt so guilty for it she felt as it did and that Yasuda also ended up believing she did. Yasuda feels she's forniture because she has a body that can't be loved. This can cause her to think that her love story with George wouldn't work and, even if Battler were to return, her love story would still fail so she would be trapped in a life in which she can't be loved and I believe her biggest wish was to be loved. While I think in Beato's gameboards she can place the blame on Battler's lack of return for her misfortune because If Battler had returned she might believe she would have left, never learnt all those unpleasant things and maybe manage to gain Battler's love regardless of her physical problems. And no, I'm not saying it would be a rational thought on her part (it was possible that before she were to manage to leave Genji would have pulled her aside and told her the truth) but she might have thought so in grief and desperation. Quote:
'Plan X' might have been saying that Kinzo handed one of them the ring while they were there. To disprove this Krauss and Natsuhi would have to show the original ring. If Kinzo never parted from it they could claim Krauss had gotten it merely because Kinzo is dead. Quote:
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If Prime Battler were to know that he's not Asumu's son it's possible even Meta Battler has this knowledge, although he's not aware of it. This assuming meta-Battler is tied to prime-Battler. Of course if you view them as two separate entities what prime-Battler knows won't affect meta-Battler at all. Quote:
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Possibly she planned to disappear after receiving his ring. Episode 7 hints at how a crime would have happened regardless of Battler returning, though it would have been 'different'. If she were to commit suicide or fake her death after George asked her to marry him, we've a different crime. Quote:
Her situation is rather complicate and I think just loving/having loved someone isn't enough to put ourselves in her shoes... though it might help us to understand her desperation at the idea her love can go wasted due to her injury. Umineko makes clear how Kinzo, Kirye and Rosa went through hell because they lost their loved ones. Kinzo became mad, Kirye had almost reached the point of being willing to kill her rival and Rosa's not realy handling things well, though she vent most of her frustration on Maria. Probably they were supposed to be hints to how Yasuda can't stand to losing her loved one/ones. |
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2012-02-04, 19:33 | Link #27669 | |
Ordinary Magician
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Gensokyo
Age: 31
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It was possible to say that Battler could have received that information at EP5. However with the information presented in the later Episodes we know for sure that Yasu's survival was strictly kept a secret. Battler coming to know that before the conference is impossible.
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2012-02-04, 19:40 | Link #27670 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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2012-02-04, 19:41 | Link #27671 | |
The True Culprit
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2012-02-04, 19:48 | Link #27672 | |
Ordinary Magician
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Gensokyo
Age: 31
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It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented!
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2012-02-04, 19:56 | Link #27673 |
The True Culprit
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The Man From 19 Years Ago is voiced by the same person who voices Battler. By this alone. It is also mildly implied by Battler's 'hallucination' that he already knew the way to the Golden Land. Therefore, my conclusion does not violate Knox's 8th.
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2012-02-04, 20:05 | Link #27674 | |
Ordinary Magician
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Gensokyo
Age: 31
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What hallucination are you speaking of? And the Golden Land has nothing to do with Yasu falling down a cliff.
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2012-02-04, 20:08 | Link #27675 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Finding the mechanism that opened the way to the golden land. If Kinzo wasn't there to guide him, how did he find it? Luck? |
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2012-02-04, 20:43 | Link #27676 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Well, Yasuda found it and all the help she had was Genji telling her which was Kinzo's homeland. The siblings in EP7 TeaParty also managed to find it without help. It'll make easier if Battler was told where to search but it's not impossible to find it.
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2012-02-04, 20:54 | Link #27677 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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e- Battler even grows to suspect himself in this episode. Only to be assured that he didnt really kill anyone. Of course, if he takes on the role of TMF19YA, then he can do whatever he wants. |
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2012-02-04, 20:58 | Link #27678 | |||
The True Culprit
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2012-02-04, 21:12 | Link #27679 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Plus Battler's lie to the audience was explained by Battler himself. In Ep 5 he's an observer and has the right to interpret things as he wants and let his interpretation be heard. If he saw something that reminded him of Kinzo, although he realized it wasn't Kinzo, he can still pretend he saw Kinzo. Though everything is odd about this Battler, from the way he suddently get interested in the epitaph so much he actually solves it, how he figures what's Kinzo's homeland (there's no scene in which the adults tell him and he previously didn't know), how he agrees to take part to such a cruel plot against Natsuhi. |
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2012-02-04, 21:20 | Link #27680 | |||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
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That's kind of... I mean, it certainly is a unique idea, but... It would only really work if she didn't feel any guilt over their deaths at all, and we have every reason to believe that she does. Quote:
Also, I don't think that Beatrice had that personality. I think that you'd have to ignore EP4 entirely, in order to interpret her personality that way. And especially EP7 and 8, where it becomes more than clear that she does feel guilty. Quote:
Debating is fun, but to be honest, the reason I came here is only because I knew I would have too much trouble if I kept trying to reason Umineko out alone. While I was always sure that there is a solution, I think that at the rate I was going, it would have taken me more effort to reach it than I'm willing to give. I really like Umineko and all, but I'm lazy. Quote:
Personally, I think that, since Beatrice's game board only spans 2 days, then... The fact that Lion can be found in Bern's "bigger cat box" means that she actually increased it from 2 days to a full 19 years. In just 2 days, the possibilities were already mind-boggling, but in 19 years, there should be so many possibilities that it couldn't make sense for the incident to occur in more than, say, 1/3 of the alternate worlds. For example, there's the possibility that the accident Asumu died in didn't happen in 1980, and when Kyrie tried to kill her, she was caught and put in jail. In this case, theoretically, Battler would have never left the family in the first place, and her first love would have a much higher chance of succeeding. However... Yasuda may be many things, but she's not an idiot. She should be able to see that possibilities like this could have happened, since she is quite intelligent. Even if Bern hides these possibilities. She's an expert at seeing possibilities that most others would never believe in, and which she has no objective evidence of. In fact, her status as the Endless Witch seems to mean that this is her specialty. So why in the world... Would she think that she has to be Lion to be able to find happiness? About all I can come up with is that Bern went and found a different Yasuda, one that is so depressed that she doesn't dare to believe that there is any hope left for her, because if she believes there is and finds out that there isn't, it will be too painful. I mean... As far as I can see, there doesn't seem to be any implication that Yasuda is that sort of person. Or at least, the Yasuda who wrote Umineko. That Yasuda kept hoping that it might be possible to find happiness with Battler for a full six years, which must have been extremely painful. And if Ikuko=Yasuda is true, then it must be the case that she kept believing even after the incident. Unless... I didn't want to think of this, but maybe the reason she believes that she can't find happiness is that injury, which gave her "a body that is incapable of love." It's true that the future George wanted included a bunch of grandchildren, which must have caused her a great deal of pain, but... Would that be enough to make her give up any hope of finding happiness? Otherwise, the injury would never be enough to justify it... Unless she's a huge pervert, but even if that was the Truth of Umineko and I could find no other explanation for her motive, I would still reject it without a second thought. Quote:
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However, when it comes to humans, it's definitely possible to find happiness in love without the physical aspect of it being involved. Maybe I'm just being idealistic when I say that? Today's society seems to believe otherwise. Well, whatever. I think that the reason she thinks that her love with Battler will fail, is that he forgot the promise and therefore, her love might be one-sided. Quote:
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It seems that many people believe that the victims of the 1st and 2nd twilights in EP5 didn't actually die yet. That does leave us the question of how they did die, huh. I'm interested to know just what happened in the part of EP5 that we didn't see now. Quote:
Well, Ryukishi did say something in that interview, about having plans to eventually give the answer: Quote:
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I feel like I can understand a lot of what she's gone through, but I have no experience with love, so I haven't been able to figure out that part. For a time, I actually tried to explain things by removing some of the significance of her love, but now that I've read that interview, I can't do that anymore. So I'm at a loss right now. Quote:
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