Madoka Magica - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Ah, but for that you need unfathomable dedication.

Anyway, magic is emotion. Homura accepted that she has no future, and that even if she saves Madoka, she won't be thanked for it. But that's ok, even if she burns herself in hell, it's ok. Contrast this with Sayaka, who after realizing she wouldn't be able to get with Kamijo, couldn't keep going forward.

Homura's strong will to keep going forward in a thankless world is actually what eventually made her stronger, instead of just experience. Sayaka, who got crashed after her first downfall, is just not emotionally strong enough to keep going. With her fragile will power, she would never be able to become stronger.

Point to you. My point was more that in a hypothetical situation Sayaka has the potential to be plenty strong, but you hit the nail on the head practically speaking.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Ah, but for that you need unfathomable dedication.

Anyway, magic is emotion. Homura accepted that she has no future, and that even if she saves Madoka, she won't be thanked for it. But that's ok, even if she burns herself in hell, it's ok. Contrast this with Sayaka, who after realizing she wouldn't be able to get with Kamijo, couldn't keep going forward.

Homura's strong will to keep going forward in a thankless world is actually what eventually made her stronger, instead of just experience. Sayaka, who got crashed after her first downfall, is just not emotionally strong enough to keep going. With her fragile will power, she would never be able to become stronger.

It's not that Sayaka has too little will power.....it's more that her outlook is too rigid. The way she sees everything in stark black and white even rejecting any outstretched hands to her (Madoka, Kyouko) it's no wonder she would fall at that rate. She does have the drive and conviction but its is not tempered with flexibility.

Someone with little will would be Mami, completely going nuts immediately after experiencing the truth of a fallen Witch.

[velderia]

I've only started watching around yesterday or the day before... And I gotta say... I was honestly making fun of this show at first, but now after finishing 10, it's giving me chills up and down my spine. Perfect 10. Thank you Shaft.

And this is one of the few anime I've seen recently that isn't adapted from manga or light novels, which is amazing and interesting. Although, it will be adapted into those formats.

It basically takes all of the fluff out of magic, yet keeping that magic.

[User68604]

incredible episode, awesome show,

on pace for a 10/10 rating in my book

april 21st cannot come any slower..

[totoum]

Originally Posted by recover

april 21st cannot come any slower..

oh it could,it's not as if you've been waiting since march 10th for the episode to come

[coderlan]

Originally Posted by velderia

I've only started watching around yesterday or the day before... And I gotta say... I was honestly making fun of this show at first, but now after finishing 10, it's giving me chills up and down my spine. Perfect 10. Thank you Shaft.

Exactly my thoughts, thank you.

[User68604]

gives me shivers... but i keep watching it over and over

[canza]

Is it just me or did anyone else enjoy that scene where Mami went crazy? I thought it was very interesting and exhilarating at the same time. Yeah I know 99% will say it's depressing, and it is. But just seeing Mami react like that gave me shivers and I thought it was just awesome seeing something like this happen, some true gritty darkness in this anime.

Mami's my favorite character, despite seeing so little of her. Instead of just seeing her calm and collected, I see a more human side of her, no matter how twisted it may be. Amazing.

[ThereminVox]

Originally Posted by canza

Is it just me or did anyone else enjoy that scene where Mami went crazy? I thought it was very interesting and exhilarating at the same time. Yeah I know 99% will say it's depressing, and it is. But just seeing Mami react like that gave me shivers and I thought it was just awesome seeing something like this happen, some true gritty darkness in this anime.

Mami's my favorite character, despite seeing so little of her. Instead of just seeing her calm and collected, I see a more human side of her, no matter how twisted it may be. Amazing.

In a twisted and horrible way, it was almost sweet. She feels guilty for involving them, and thinks she has a responsibility to end their suffering, as the team mom. Of course she's completely lost her mind at the time, but to her, it's a burden she's taking upon herself for the sake of her girls. Gen has a way in his stories of having characters commit unspeakable atrocities out of love.

[Snork]

Gen has a way in his stories of having characters commit unspeakable atrocities out of love.

So true.
The said moment was rather depressing for me, but then again, most of this show is. Quality-wise, it's done greatly and drives home the point why Homura avoided revealing everything in the current timeline.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by canza

Is it just me or did anyone else enjoy that scene where Mami went crazy? I thought it was very interesting and exhilarating at the same time. Yeah I know 99% will say it's depressing, and it is. But just seeing Mami react like that gave me shivers and I thought it was just awesome seeing something like this happen, some true gritty darkness in this anime.

Mami's my favorite character, despite seeing so little of her. Instead of just seeing her calm and collected, I see a more human side of her, no matter how twisted it may be. Amazing.

Seeing as Mami is my favorite character as well, I appreciated that scene more because it firmly shattered the pedestal Mami had been placed on (mostly by Sayaka) after her death. It was nice to see that she wasn't some amazing exception to the rule like Sayaka sort of thought she was, but that at the same time she retained some of her kindness (even if it was incredibly distorted ). Of course by that point in episode 10 I was firmly in the state of mind of sitting back and watching a train crash, so part of my love for that scene comes with the emotional impact it had.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

In a twisted and horrible way, it was almost sweet. She feels guilty for involving them, and thinks she has a responsibility to end their suffering, as the team mom. Of course she's completely lost her mind at the time, but to her, it's a burden she's taking upon herself for the sake of her girls. Gen has a way in his stories of having characters commit unspeakable atrocities out of love.

To me, that made the scene even more tragic. She intended to kill them because she loved them, and at least she knew that if she did it, they would die relatively quickly and painlessly, compared to being transformed into witches like Sayaka. It showed an incredibly human side to her, even if in a twisted manner; she wasn't perfect, but she loved her girls, and she wanted to save them. And to her, saving them meant killing them, and then killing herself.

It's always more tragic when it's an act of madness based in love, for some reason.

[ThereminVox]

Part of me wonders what (if anything at all) it says about their past that Mami took Kyouko down first. We know that they're both present in the Oriko manga, so they have at least some shared history. It's unlikely that they were close, of course, given Kyouko's nature, but they presumably have known each other longer than the other girls, even in that timeline. It was probably just the best shot she had at the time, or maybe in her haze of despair she thought the others would better accept her reasons than Kyouko would, but it's something I'll be keeping in mind when Oriko comes out.

[User68604]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

To me, that made the scene even more tragic. She intended to kill them because she loved them, and at least she knew that if she did it, they would die relatively quickly and painlessly, compared to being transformed into witches like Sayaka. It showed an incredibly human side to her, even if in a twisted manner; she wasn't perfect, but she loved her girls, and she wanted to save them. And to her, saving them meant killing them, and then killing herself.

It's always more tragic when it's an act of madness based in love, for some reason.

agree,

it also really shows how cruel and ugly the world as a magical girl can be..


never thought we'd say something like that...about a MG anime lol..

[Snork]

Part of me wonders what (if anything at all) it says about their past that Mami took Kyouko down first. We know that they're both present in the Oriko manga, so they have at least some shared history. It's unlikely that they were close, of course, given Kyouko's nature, but they presumably have known each other longer than the other girls, even in that timeline.

Orico cover kinda drives the point home, since we already had Mami's words about a selfless wish gone wrong, and it really seems she was talking about Kyouko.
I wonder if they had a rivalry in the past or if they could have even been partners for a short while. Despite Kyouko's adopted worldview, she might have felt some sympathy for a girl who was orphaned in a matter of hours just like herself and who possibly took up the heroic practice to fill her life with some meaning rather than just doing it for ideals' sake. and seeing as Mami tends to be a "big sister/mother figure", she might have likewise felt sympathy for Kyouko. LOL, judging by the recent fanart trends, most people thought of this this way before I did.
I'm definitely checking out Orico Magica when it's released.

it also really shows how cruel and ugly the world as a magical girl can be..


never thought we'd say something like that...about a MG anime lol..

Likewise, some seven years ago nobody thought they could say "wow, it shows how sci-fi-driven and firepower-packed an MG world can be"... and then there was Nanoha.
Good job, Shinbo-sensei. Approaching one of the most generic anime genres twice, only for each attempt to result in a work that forever stands apart from the big crowd is something to boast of in itself.

[Sageblink]

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

Part of me wonders what (if anything at all) it says about their past that Mami took Kyouko down first.

To me, it was mostly because Kyouko was the most troublesome MG.
If she had shoot Madoka first, then Kyouko would have surely attack. Mami maybe wasn't expecting for Madoka to fight back since they are friends.

Kyouko would have been to much to handle. The faster, the better. And as they are not friends, killing her is "easier"...

But as she's gone nuts at that moment, could a strategy like that be applied to her ?

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Sageblink

To me, it was mostly because Kyouko was the most troublesome MG.
If she had shoot Madoka first, then Kyouko would have surely attack. Mami maybe wasn't expecting for Madoka to fight back since they are friends.

Kyouko would have been to much to handle. The faster, the better. And as they are not friends, killing her is "easier"...

But as she's gone nuts at that moment, could a strategy like that be applied to her ?

Considering how emotional Mami was when she was going to shoot Homura, it's possible. I mean, I hesitate to say Kyouko and Mami weren't friends (by that point in the timeline, at least), but it was probably easier to shoot her than to kill the two girls Mami effectively trained and considered "hers". And honestly, deep down, I think even then Mami didn't really want to kill Madoka and Homura. It was just the best thing she could think of in her mindset.

[Sol Falling]

...yeah. So, with regards to the whole Mami snapping scene, I guess I never read any sort of 'love' or altruistic intention in trying to kill everybody at all. It didn't really shock or depress me or anything, but principally, I just felt really bad for Kyouko. I mean, those were your friends and teammates there. Particularly with Kyouko, you can sort of see how much it means and what it symbolizes that she is there, and is part of the team, given her original self-interested personality/philosophy. And yet, Kyouko is still the first one to be shot and simply erased out of the blue when the team crumbles. She's the first one to be thrown away and eliminated. You can really see some sort of betrayal of trust and loss of innocence there.

I do think there is something really interesting in the fact that Kyouko was the first one Mami killed, and that it was Madoka whom she was caught off-guard and killed by. To be honest, it basically reveals/suggests to me something cold and calculating in the innermost depths of Mami's personality, that she has measured her friends by their naivete and trust put into her and that she started off with the one perceived as most dangerous. Mami's death, which is something I read as the result of an unstable attempt to protect her own self-image as a 'cool sempai who fights evil' which had somehow let her have friends again, speaks to me of two tragic misperceptions on the part of Mami. The first was in Mami deciding Kyouko could not be trusted, that she was too world-wise, assured, independent--i.e., Mami deciding that Kyouko was a threat to her 'righteous Puella Magi' image which let her look cool and have 'friends' who admired her. This is tragic because, deep down really, what Kyouko wanted to have was also friends too. The second tragic misperception is in of course Mami's underestimation of Madoka. Mami must have seen Madoka as someone naive, who couldn't handle reality, and could always be led by the pretty words of an admirable 'sempai'. If Mami believed Madoka had been 'tricked' into being a Mahou Shoujo by the impression that it was a wonderful and admirable reality, then she might also fear that if Madoka saw the 'truth' then Mami would be blamed and have no friends anymore. This is of course tragic first of all because Madoka did rise up and have the balls to stop Mami from making things even worse for everybody, so first of all in looking at Madoka as naive and harmless Mami wasn't being fair to her; but again moreover echoing my point about Kyouko is the fact that if Mami had realized that Madoka wasn't a naive sheep who had become a Mahou Shoujo to follow her, then again there would have been room for real friendship there, and in that sort of scenario Mami wouldn't have needed to snap and start killing everybody in the first place.

[Sageblink]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

there would have been room for real friendship there

Well, though I agree with some of your thoughts, you must keep in mind that all those events happened during a month. I only speak for myself (and of course, I'm not a MG risking her life etc etc) but a month is a reaaaaaaally short time to create a "real friendship". Even under those circonstances. Even more under those circontances.
Trust someone, okay.
Trust someone blindly, no no no.

To me, the fact that they were all gathered for a purpose (being a MG) is not a good environnement to start a relationship anyway.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

...yeah. So, with regards to the whole Mami snapping scene, I guess I never read any sort of 'love' or altruistic intention in trying to kill everybody at all. It didn't really shock or depress me or anything, but principally, I just felt really bad for Kyouko. I mean, those were your friends and teammates there. Particularly with Kyouko, you can sort of see how much it means and what it symbolizes that she is there, and is part of the team, given her original self-interested personality/philosophy. And yet, Kyouko is still the first one to be shot and simply erased out of the blue when the team crumbles. She's the first one to be thrown away and eliminated. You can really see some sort of betrayal of trust and loss of innocence there.

I do think there is something really interesting in the fact that Kyouko was the first one Mami killed, and that it was Madoka whom she was caught off-guard and killed by. To be honest, it basically reveals/suggests to me something cold and calculating in the innermost depths of Mami's personality, that she has measured her friends by their naivete and trust put into her and that she started off with the one perceived as most dangerous. Mami's death, which is something I read as the result of an unstable attempt to protect her own self-image as a 'cool sempai who fights evil' which had somehow let her have friends again, speaks to me of two tragic misperceptions on the part of Mami. The first was in Mami deciding Kyouko could not be trusted, that she was too world-wise, assured, independent--i.e., Mami deciding that Kyouko was a threat to her 'righteous Puella Magi' image which let her look cool and have 'friends' who admired her. This is tragic because, deep down really, what Kyouko wanted to have was also friends too. The second tragic misperception is in of course Mami's underestimation of Madoka. Mami must have seen Madoka as someone naive, who couldn't handle reality, and could always be led by the pretty words of an admirable 'sempai'. If Mami believed Madoka had been 'tricked' into being a Mahou Shoujo by the impression that it was a wonderful and admirable reality, then she might also fear that if Madoka saw the 'truth' then Mami would be blamed and have no friends anymore. This is of course tragic first of all because Madoka did rise up and have the balls to stop Mami from making things even worse for everybody, so first of all in looking at Madoka as naive and harmless Mami wasn't being fair to here; but again moreover echoing my point about Kyouko is the fact that if Mami had realized that Madoka wasn't a naive sheep who had become a Mahou Shoujo to follow her, then again there would have been room for real friendship there, and Mami wouldn't have needed to snap and start killing everybody in the first place.

Uh, wut? You gleaned all that from that scene... how, exactly?

I'm not being sarcastic (maybe a little bit, but I'm perfectly serious); how exactly did a BSoD moment turn into an evaluation of Mami's "cold and calculating" side? Note that I don't doubt that she has such a side--I find it hard to believe that she could hold Mitakihara as her turf for very long otherwise. That said, I don't see one thing you brought up in that scene; except perhaps the evaluation of how meaningful Kyoko being a part of the group is, which on reflection is actually a good point I hadn't thought too hard about before.

But seriously. Considering Kyoko a threat to some image that we can't even be sure she was holding up at that point? Considering Madoka to be a naive follower (which is actually somewhat true, but that's not relevant to the point you're making)? You make it sound like she was in a perfect state of mind, and was making these decisions completely rationally. To me, Kyoko dying first was just a case of Kyoko being the one she had the clearest shot on (Homura being bound, and Madoka being beside her). That she put any more thought into the killing spree other than "we all have to die, but Homura could be a problem" is probably unlikely. As I said, massive BSoD moment. It doesn't excuse the BSoD in question, but it also doesn't turn it into some kind of personality evaluation.