One Piece - Chapter 558 (manga)

[Azncoke123]

[QUOTE=noktown;2670536]

Originally Posted by cheese4u

Well that's the point,as long as he touches them their ability is disabled,which means in Ace's case he couldn't just turn into fire and escape from his hand,while if he used Haki,he could still use his DF abilities to the fullest,Haki only enables the ability to touch DF's.

I'm sure Black Hole has more purpose in it than just disabling the DF ability,otherwise i don't see it being such of a threat.

Yes Haki allows you to touch your enemy, but it doesn't disable their DF.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Also, the negative stat modifier you mentioned, does this count in his ability or not. Cause, with the ability added to his original self, he has only plus stat update compared to before.

Taking extra damage is a negative modifer in itself, but overall the darkness fruit provides Blackbeard with more advantages than it does drawbacks, and therefore it would be considered a positive stat modifier in the end.

[Hisoka??]

[QUOTE=cheese4u;2670503]

Originally Posted by Hisoka??

Neither does Blackbeard's ability, sure they lose their power when he touches them, but they get it right back after he lets them go.

What I was saying was how is that doing anymore than a regular haki attack:

Black hole: absorbs Ability, which enables you to touch your logia opponent

Haki: enables you to touch your logia opponent


How is that any different from Haki?

There is a big difference. Losing your powers can be a great deal.

Example: Let's take AoKige (the ice fruit guy, can't recall the speling). Assuming with Haki you can touch him, but that doesn't stop him from instantly freezing and thereby disabling your hands which you used to touch him. As compared to the darkness fruit where you touch him and he is unable to use his powers to freeze you.

That addresses your question on whether there's a difference? Just because you can touch some one doesn't mean that person's abilities cannot hurt you. And we're haven't factored in the part on creating black holes.

[cheese4u]

Sorry, still don't see the big difference. I understand what you guys are saying, but based on what we've seen out of Blackbeard, what do you think he's going to do when he captures you with that ability, he's going to hit you with some kind of physical attack. Which is essentially the same thing as what a person with haki would do. It's not like a dragon that shoots exploding marshmallows is going to come out and devour his opponent for an instant kill, he's just going to do the same thing a person with haki would do, only easier. Yes, I understand that if you absorb their abilities they won't be able to counterattack, but that's only provided that he captures you first. Ace understood after the first time he got caught that as long as he doesn't get caught again it can't hurt him, and from that moment forward Blackbeard had a great amount of difficulty catching him (and yes, I do realize we didn't see the entire fight).

Sure one is more convenient than the other but the end result is the same, so are they really that different IMO, no.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by cheese4u

Sorry, still don't see the big difference. I understand what you guys are saying, but based on what we've seen out of Blackbeard, what do you think he's going to do when he captures you with that ability, he's going to hit you with some kind of physical attack. Which is essentially the same thing as what a person with haki would do. It's not like a dragon that shoots exploding marshmallows is going to come out and devour his opponent for an instant kill, he's just going to do the same thing a person with haki would do, only easier. Yes, I understand that if you absorb their abilities they won't be able to counterattack, but that's only provided that he captures you first. Ace understood after the first time he got caught that as long as he doesn't get caught again it can't hurt him, and from that moment forward Blackbeard had a great amount of difficulty catching him (and yes, I do realize we didn't see the entire fight).

Sure one is more convenient than the other but the end result is the same, so are they really that different IMO, no.

What trouble? Blackbeard got Ace the second time aswell; sure he got hurt in the process, but he still did give Ace one hell of a hit... avoiding blackbeard is difficult as he can pull you in as NOTHING can escape the pull of gravity... the ONLY thing you can do is hit him first, and unless that hit is good enough to really throw him for a loop, he's still gonna get in one damn good hit

Long range fighters have a chance at this, but close range fighters will find it impossible to escape his attacks

[cheese4u]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

What trouble? Blackbeard got Ace the second time aswell; sure he got hurt in the process, but he still did give Ace one hell of a hit... avoiding blackbeard is difficult as he can pull you in as NOTHING can escape the pull of gravity... the ONLY thing you can do is hit him first, and unless that hit is good enough to really throw him for a loop, he's still gonna get in one damn good hit

Long range fighters have a chance at this, but close range fighters will find it impossible to escape his attacks

He didn't get caught the second time, he got hit the second time. That hit is exactly what I'm talking about, how is that any different then what a person with Haki would do. And my whole argument was centered around his ability to absorb fruit users abilities, not neccessarily his ability to gravitate his opponents towards him. How is the ability to absorb a persons ability by itself, that different from a person who uses haki?

[Cinocard]

At close combat:
1. Even with haki opponents, Logia users still have the advantage of flexibility and mobility. With Blackbeard, there will be no fly, no absurd evasion.
2. Depends on the quality of Haki, the physical attack may result in different damage. We dont know how it works yet. Blackbeard alway deals full physical damage.
3. When against BB, Logia users cannot use their skill up close to boost their attack power. It will be pure physical contest only. Which Blackbeard triumphs. Yet Blackbeard can still uses AoE attacks against his opponents.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by cheese4u

And my whole argument was centered around his ability to absorb fruit users abilities, not neccessarily his ability to gravitate his opponents towards him. How is the ability to absorb a persons ability by itself, that different from a person who uses haki?

You cannot separately examine those cases. Blackbeard is using that ability, but the only reason he was able to use it is thanks to his devil fruit ability. Without it, if the logia user can take care of his opponent without coming in contact with his opponent, then the haki similarity will only stay as a haki similarity. Because, unlike a real haki user, who may defend against such logia attacks without coming in contact with the enemy, Blackbeard would have to offer his body to them. Blackbeard's ability becomes complete when he can use both at the same time, the sucking power and the suppressing power.

[marvelB]

I've said this quite a while ago, but I think the reason that Blackbeard chose to acquire that specific Devil Fruit power was so that he'd have a fighting chance against not only other DF users, but those who use Haki as well. Remember what he told Ace about his power? He said that his darkness can absorb anything. I don't think it's too far-fetched to assume that his darkness can absorb "willpower", as well. I mean, if Kuma was able to remove Luffy's pain and fatigue with his paw fruit power, who's to say that Blackbeard can't suck up a person's Haki with his darkness? That would truly make him one of the most dangerous characters in the series.......

[cheese4u]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

You cannot separately examine those cases. Blackbeard is using that ability, but the only reason he was able to use it is thanks to his devil fruit ability. Without it, if the logia user can take care of his opponent without coming in contact with his opponent, then the haki similarity will only stay as a haki similarity. Because, unlike a real haki user, who may defend against such logia attacks without coming in contact with the enemy, Blackbeard would have to offer his body to them. Blackbeard's ability becomes complete when he can use both at the same time, the sucking power and the suppressing power.

So he can't absorb there ability without using black hole to draw them near? He can't just grab them himself and absorb their ability? Listen, Blackhole and that energy sucking ability may come from the same power but it's different techniques(Much like Luffy's gear two and three). And it still doesn't change the fact that the ultimate goal of the technique results in the exact same thing as a haki user, and that is to hit someone who could not otherwise be hit.

Sorry, I'd love to comment on the rest of your post but I didn't understand most of it.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by cheese4u

So he can't absorb there ability without using black hole to draw them near? He can't just grab them himself and absorb their ability? Listen, Blackhole and that energy sucking ability may come from the same power but it's different techniques(Much like Luffy's gear two and three).

He may do that in the case the logia user wants to have a direct contact with him. Until now, Blackbeard has not shown any ability that would make him as fast as those other logia users, since they can use their abilities to change locations pretty fast. And, if Blackbeard cannot come in contact with other Logia users, then he cannot use that devil fruit suppressing ability of his. That is why he uses the blackhole thing to suck the devil fruit users to himself so that he can use it. That is why I was referring his ability as a complete ability when he can use both.

Originally Posted by marvelB

I've said this quite a while ago, but I think the reason that Blackbeard chose to acquire that specific Devil Fruit power was so that he'd have a fighting chance against not only other DF users, but those who use Haki as well.

You are making it sound as if Blackbeard didn't have that strength before he obtained the devil fruit ability. He was already strong enough, and strong enough to be considered as a power easily above Ace, and almost the same level as Shanks, without the devil fruit ability taken into account. And we already know Shanks is a very powerful Haki user and Ace is a very powerful Logia user. I highly doubt Shanks made comments about Blackbeard without taking those into account.

[andy]

Originally Posted by marvelB

I've said this quite a while ago, but I think the reason that Blackbeard chose to acquire that specific Devil Fruit power was so that he'd have a fighting chance against not only other DF users, but those who use Haki as well. Remember what he told Ace about his power? He said that his darkness can absorb anything. I don't think it's too far-fetched to assume that his darkness can absorb "willpower", as well. I mean, if Kuma was able to remove Luffy's pain and fatigue with his paw fruit power, who's to say that Blackbeard can't suck up a person's Haki with his darkness? That would truly make him one of the most dangerous characters in the series.......

Okay let find out what Haki is before coming up with crazy ideas.
BB got his DF for many reason

Cancel devil DF powers
To make people fight in close combat
To suck in Other DF powers
He also belives that people depend to much on there DF and are not strong

Originally Posted by cheese4u

So he can't absorb there ability without using black hole to draw them near? He can't just grab them himself and absorb their ability? Listen, Blackhole and that energy sucking ability may come from the same power but it's different techniques(Much like Luffy's gear two and three). And it still doesn't change the fact that the ultimate goal of the technique results in the exact same thing as a haki user, and that is to hit someone who could not otherwise be hit.

Sorry, I'd love to comment on the rest of your post but I didn't understand most of it.

Haki user might be able to hit logia users but they can't get ride of there powers let me give a eg .In the fight vs Ace when ace made his huge fight ball a Haki user would have to get close to hit him or dodge him then attack. BB just absorb the huge fireball while pulling ace to him toward him.

Take kizaru light beam attack would be useless vs BB he just absorb them .
When dark king use his sword to cut kizaru he made a beam sword to fight back. That would be useless vs BB cause he just suck him in with his hand and attack him. taking away his power plus it close combat he can hit and suck back in for another hit .

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

You are making it sound as if Blackbeard didn't have that strength before he obtained the devil fruit ability. He was already strong enough, and strong enough to be considered as a power easily above Ace, and almost the same level as Shanks, without the devil fruit ability taken into account. And we already know Shanks is a very powerful Haki user and Ace is a very powerful Logia user. I highly doubt Shanks made comments about Blackbeard without taking those into account.

Actually, after rereading my post, I agree that I didn't phrase it properly. Of course I'm aware that Blackbeard was already a huge threat from the get-go (after all, we even had Jinbei telling Luffy at Impel Down that Teach was always a suspicious character when he was still part of Whitebead's crew). Still, I guess I just meant to say that he chose to eat that particular DF to give himself more of an "edge" over those opponents he would consider to be most troublesome.....




Still, even putting his DF power aside, he has another powerful ally that not many people are taking into account: Fate. No matter what happens to him, he'll survive to persist in his grand schemes..... at least, up until his final encounter with Luffy, anyway. Like Van Auger said, there's no such thing as "coincidence"......

[james0246]

Originally Posted by marvelB

I've said this quite a while ago, but I think the reason that Blackbeard chose to acquire that specific Devil Fruit power was so that he'd have a fighting chance against not only other DF users, but those who use Haki as well. Remember what he told Ace about his power? He said that his darkness can absorb anything. I don't think it's too far-fetched to assume that his darkness can absorb "willpower", as well. I mean, if Kuma was able to remove Luffy's pain and fatigue with his paw fruit power, who's to say that Blackbeard can't suck up a person's Haki with his darkness? That would truly make him one of the most dangerous characters in the series.......

But I though will traveled faster than light...

Still, it is an interesting idea, and it adds far greater importance to Luffy's King's Haki.

[cheese4u]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

He may do that in the case the logia user wants to have a direct contact with him. Until now, Blackbeard has not shown any ability that would make him as fast as those other logia users, since they can use their abilities to change locations pretty fast. And, if Blackbeard cannot come in contact with other Logia users, then he cannot use that devil fruit suppressing ability of his. That is why he uses the blackhole thing to suck the devil fruit users to himself so that he can use it. That is why I was referring his ability as a complete ability when he can use both.

Uhhh...maybe, but as I recall Ace really isn't that fast, during that entire fight he didn't do anything that would make me believe that BB had to use that ability to catch him

[QUOTE=andy;2670991]

Haki user might be able to hit logia users but they can't get ride of there powers let me give a eg .In the fight vs Ace when ace made his huge fight ball a Haki user would have to get close to hit him or dodge him then attack. BB just absorb the huge fireball while pulling ace to him toward him.

We've already been over this, that wasn't my point.

Take kizaru light beam attack would be useless vs BB he just absorb them .
When dark king use his sword to cut kizaru he made a beam sword to fight back. That would be useless vs BB cause he just suck him in with his hand and attack him. taking away his power plus it close combat he can hit and suck back in for another hit .

Those attacks would be just as useless against a strong haki user. Remember when Luffy fought the Snake sisters? When he attacked the big one his arms kept bouncing off.

['Pryde]

off topic..but can anyone on the marines side beat jose besides mihawk, and maybe sengoku? Im guessing kizaru's light wuld just refelct off and i doubt ice will do anything and last i checked lava cant melt diamond.

[andy]

[QUOTE=cheese4u;2671059]Uhhh...maybe, but as I recall Ace really isn't that fast, during that entire fight he didn't do anything that would make me believe that BB had to use that ability to catch him

Originally Posted by andy

We've already been over this, that wasn't my point.



Those attacks would be just as useless against a strong haki user. Remember when Luffy fought the Snake sisters? When he attacked the big one his arms kept bouncing off.

That was a physical attack, there nothing to prove that she would have hit back logia powers . Plus when luffy hit her hard she bounce back what stopping a ice spear or a beam going right threw her.Plus when luffy got a hit on BB in chapter 544 when he was fly back he was able to pull luffy clsoer to him to get a free hit.Luffy was also in gear 2 and he could not escape.

[cheese4u]

That was a physical attack, there nothing to prove that she would have hit back logia powers.

There's nothing to prove that it wouldn't have. How do you know that ability can only deflect physical attacks?

Plus when luffy hit her hard she bounce back what stopping a ice spear or a beam going right threw her.

As I recall Luffy displayed his haki before going into gear two, that could be a reason as to why he was able to hit her back. Or it could be his physical strength in gear two is stronger than her haki.

Plus when luffy got a hit on BB in chapter 544 when he was fly back he was able to pull luffy clsoer to him to get a free hit.Luffy was also in gear 2 and he could not escape.

Not sure, what your trying to say here.

[marvelB]

By the way, I believe that next chapter we'll finally reach Zoro's ministory! Seeing as this is (presumably) the last of the Straw-Hat ministories, it should be quite interesting, indeed. Heh, I really can't help but wonder what sort of humiliation Perona might be putting poor Zoro through.....

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by cheese4u

Uhhh...maybe, but as I recall Ace really isn't that fast, during that entire fight he didn't do anything that would make me believe that BB had to use that ability to catch him

Ace is fast, especially if you take into account his devil fruit ability that would allow him to reach far/high places quite easily. And the same can be said for other typical Logia users as well. Unless they go to Blackbeard (normally they don't, that is what makes their abilities highly effective), Blackbeard needs to bring them to his hand-touch to use his powers on them.

Originally Posted by marvelB

Still, I guess I just meant to say that he chose to eat that particular DF to give himself more of an "edge" over those opponents he would consider to be most troublesome.....

Edge is a better term to use, whether it is used for him or his opponents. That ability allows him to break the tie in addition to preventing his opponent to escape him.