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Old 2012-11-09, 08:37   Link #31121
Ryuudou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
Beatrice only fought Battler in Meta. She never talks to Battler face to face on the island, well she could have considering the time gap but there is no evidence that she did. Logic states that Yasu is dead by the well as...
Battler talks to Yasu on the balcony in front of the entrance to the mansion after everyone other than Maria has supposedly died. That was piece-Battler, and piece-Battler's perspective cannot contain falsehoods (in 1-4 at least). Piece-Battler fails to remember his promise, and then Yasu gets mad and goes back into the mansion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
No it happens on the 5th. What makes EP4 different from the others is that the game starts in earnest on the 4th. Battler meets "Beatrice" at midnight, goes berserk for a few hours after seeing Maria's corpse and then starts playing detective after he calms down.
I just checked again actually. It occurs on the 6th. After he meets Yasu he spends a full 24 hours (The Tea Party starts on the night of the next day the 25th), and then in the morning he awakes and begins his full investigation on this day (the 26th).
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Old 2012-11-09, 09:23   Link #31122
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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
I just checked again actually. It occurs on the 6th. After he meets Yasu he spends a full 24 hours (The Tea Party starts on the night of the next day the 25th), and then in the morning he awakes and begins his full investigation on this day (the 26th).
The "24 hours later" is Battler speaking just before midnight on the 5th. The whole investigation is a flashback of what he was doing that day on the empty island.

He spoke to Beatrice at midnight on the 4th, and he thought everyone was dead by that time, but he didn't actually find Shannon's corpse until much later.
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Old 2012-11-09, 09:31   Link #31123
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Battler specifically says this, too. He mentions exactly what he'd been doing up to that point.

According to his narration, after meeting Beatrice and going to the chapel to find the key, he went inside and found everyone in the dining room. At this point he apparently became pretty paranoid and seemingly ran around in a panic looking for the killer and/or possibly sleeping until about 6 AM, when he began searching for other bodies. It was only at this point that he found Jessica, Kyrie, and the people outside (including Shannon). Technically speaking, anyone other than George and the people in the dining room could've been alive after midnight, so long as they died before about 6-7 AM on the 5th.

What exactly Battler was doing from noon of the 5th to midnight I'm not sure. He seems to have given up looking for the killer, and there aren't any more bodies to find... guess he just got depressed and started drinking, or maybe passed out for a while.
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Old 2012-11-09, 10:40   Link #31124
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
What exactly Battler was doing from noon of the 5th to midnight I'm not sure. He seems to have given up looking for the killer, and there aren't any more bodies to find... guess he just got depressed and started drinking, or maybe passed out for a while.
Thats exactly what Battler starts doing actually. At least in the manga version.

e-Talking about the manga. There is a slight difference with that scene in that manga compared to the VN. In the VN, Battler does spot Maria before running out in rage. The game even does the sound effect when someone's alive or dead status changes. In the manga, Battler only spots the 6 adults and rushes out after crying a bit on his fathers corpse. Its only when he comes back that he spots Maria's corpse.

Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2012-11-09 at 10:59.
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Old 2012-11-09, 15:08   Link #31125
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
The "24 hours later" is Battler speaking just before midnight on the 5th. The whole investigation is a flashback of what he was doing that day on the empty island.

He spoke to Beatrice at midnight on the 4th, and he thought everyone was dead by that time, but he didn't actually find Shannon's corpse until much later.
Ah thank you. My mistake. It was a bit confusing because normally the only flashbacks that occur are over the span of several decades.

I understand that Yasu committed suicide (because of Battler), but why would he/she go and do it as Shannon? The story typically implies that, each game, Yasu kills off that personality inside him/her before or by the end of the murders. The fantasy narration also implies that Shannon was "killed off" before Battler even met with Yasu. R07 generally writes fantasy scenes to not be blatantly false, but to be metaphorical, so it kind of implies that when Kyrie and Krauss' group were hunted down she also killed Kanon and Shannon inside of his/her mind. If so why would Yasu "revive" Shannon only to suicide as her? Also if Yasu is allowed to revive Kanon or Shannon on whim then wouldn't that take away from the image of what the red truth represents? The whole explanation for meta Beatrice being able to confirm their deaths in red each game is, to my understanding, the idea of personality deaths; Yasu being able to revive them on whim after killing them would severely undermine this. If she committed suicide because of Battler after the murders then I imagine he/she'd do it in Kinzo's study or something. If Yasu committed suicide as Shannon because Battler's promise to Shannon in the past (if she did it because of this it implies that she's trying to make a statement) then that's kind of contradictory with her doing it in one of the least visible places on the island that a normal person wouldn't normally walk through.

Also if Yasu did suicide as Shannon after everything occurred, then why would it be consistent with the earlier fantasy narrative? Assuming the earlier fantasy scene of Shannon's death was an abnormality (all other occasions fantasy scenes are metaphorical and still occurred in some way) and it didn't occur then why does Shannon's "after the fact" suicide coincidentally match it?

If it's to "get back" as Battler then suiciding as Shannon (and making all bodies accounted for) only says to piece-Battler that a "19th" person exists and puts him at relative ease in regards to his complex over suspecting his friends or family.

And if it was to make a statement, IE: "You baka, you didn't remember our promise, so I will now die in the form of the person you made the promise to" then Yasu suiciding in a location that someone would likely never walk by is contradictory to this.
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Old 2012-11-09, 16:01   Link #31126
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Both times in the story that "Beatrice" (I'm not sure Yasu even exists in the stories themselves) has visibly killed herself, it's been as Shannon.
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Old 2012-11-09, 17:44   Link #31127
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Thats exactly what Battler starts doing actually. At least in the manga version.

e-Talking about the manga. There is a slight difference with that scene in that manga compared to the VN. In the VN, Battler does spot Maria before running out in rage. The game even does the sound effect when someone's alive or dead status changes. In the manga, Battler only spots the 6 adults and rushes out after crying a bit on his fathers corpse. Its only when he comes back that he spots Maria's corpse.
Well, the VN put much more enphasis on Battler trying to save Maria and crying when he saw her (as well as his father and the others) dead.
The manga put much more emphasis on the pain he felt seeing his father dead.

But yes, from a mystery perspective the change is interesting because it leaves open the possibility Maria was killed later, though at the same time it could be she was merely out of Battler's sight the first time he entered in that room (one time he entered from one side of the room and the other he entered from the opposite one).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
Battler talks to Yasu on the balcony in front of the entrance to the mansion after everyone other than Maria has supposedly died. That was piece-Battler, and piece-Battler's perspective cannot contain falsehoods (in 1-4 at least). Piece-Battler fails to remember his promise, and then Yasu gets mad and goes back into the mansion.
The 'fun' part is that, after Beato's thetrical accusation about him having a sin, it would be hard to connect 'his sin' to that promise even if he were to remember it.

It'll be hard to think the witch of Rokkenjima, who supposedly killed Shannon already, would murder everyone, Shannon included, because he didn't keep his word about coming back, expecially because Shannon didn't seem to have problems with it as she had found another boyfriend and is about to marry him and all after a rant which basically said that, since he was an Ushiromiya, even if his father cheated on his mother (basically breaking the promise to stay faithful to her), he should have stayed an Ushiromiya.

Not mentioning that Beato purposely said things/let him believe things that were misleading and tried to trick him. One surely wouldn't expect her to preach the importance of keeping promises to someone apparently unrelated to her and whom she had no qualm to kill, trick, make fun of and consider forniture.

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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
I understand that Yasu committed suicide (because of Battler), but why would he/she go and do it as Shannon?
According to Yasu's game none must remain alive so she has to die at some point and, apparently, she prefers to do it with her Shannon look. So you can say if you want that Yasu first killed her Shannon personality and after killed herself while wearing Shannon's clothes.
After all it's suspicious how Kanon's body goes missing in two episodes but it would be even more suspicious if Shannon were to go missing as well.
Plus, killing herself while in Shannon's clothes free her from the problem of hiding her own corpse.
If Battler were to find it and recognize it as Shannon's in Beato's clothes he would get the truth.
If she were to fake being dead waiting for the bomb, once all the accomplices/adults are killed there's after all the likehood that Battler, as he did in EP 4, would check again the corpses and discover she was faking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
Also if Yasu is allowed to revive Kanon or Shannon on whim then wouldn't that take away from the image of what the red truth represents?
Many have been disappointed by how the red was used in regard to Kanon/Shannon's deaths and consider it an unfair trick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
Also if Yasu did suicide as Shannon after everything occurred, then why would it be consistent with the earlier fantasy narrative? Assuming the earlier fantasy scene of Shannon's death was an abnormality (all other occasions fantasy scenes are metaphorical and still occurred in some way) and it didn't occur then why does Shannon's "after the fact" suicide coincidentally match it?
Fantasy scenes don't necessarily match the truth. The only thing that has to match is the result, so those people died in the fantasy and those people must die in the mystery. However if you consider Ep 6 the victims died in a way completely different by the one portrayed in the fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
If it's to "get back" as Battler then suiciding as Shannon (and making all bodies accounted for) only says to piece-Battler that a "19th" person exists and puts him at relative ease in regards to his complex over suspecting his friends or family.
That's not so much in order to put piece-Battler at ease but in order to make more difficult for Meta-Battler to solve the game. Pieces exist merely in function of the meta players, to deliver a message to them.
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Old 2012-11-09, 19:42   Link #31128
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Thank you Renall and jjblue1.

That clears some things up, however two (or at least one) fake bodies had to be used in the episode 3 first twilight right?
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Old 2012-11-09, 20:44   Link #31129
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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
Thank you Renall and jjblue1.

That clears some things up, however two (or at least one) fake bodies had to be used in the episode 3 first twilight right?
Not necessarily. You see, Shannon was in the first floor, and was the only one on an accessible place, the other corpses were in the 2nd floor, a place where you cannot easily throw a chair at and pass through the broken window. The other one on ground level was Kanon, but no-one is gonna check the chapel first. So the siblings discover Shannon first, discover the key and go through every room in the closed room circle. As Kanon is the last one, Yasu can kill Shannon in the first room, and has plenty of time to go to the chapel and kill Kanon there. Nobody returns to the closed rooms so it seems that Kanon and Shannon are dead in different places.
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Old 2012-11-09, 21:38   Link #31130
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Originally Posted by Joeyscraggy View Post
Not necessarily. You see, Shannon was in the first floor, and was the only one on an accessible place, the other corpses were in the 2nd floor, a place where you cannot easily throw a chair at and pass through the broken window. The other one on ground level was Kanon, but no-one is gonna check the chapel first. So the siblings discover Shannon first, discover the key and go through every room in the closed room circle. As Kanon is the last one, Yasu can kill Shannon in the first room, and has plenty of time to go to the chapel and kill Kanon there. Nobody returns to the closed rooms so it seems that Kanon and Shannon are dead in different places.
Personally I understand that, what about the keys?

Who was the 5th one again?Anyway wasn't the key to the chapel in the 5th room or did I get something wrong here?
As in:
Chapel - needs key from room 5 - that requires the key from room 4 - etc.
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Old 2012-11-09, 22:48   Link #31131
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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Personally I understand that, what about the keys?

Who was the 5th one again?Anyway wasn't the key to the chapel in the 5th room or did I get something wrong here?
As in:
Chapel - needs key from room 5 - that requires the key from room 4 - etc.
Yes the key was in the fifth room they checked. But it wasn't needed. All Yasu would have to do is use the turn locks and keep the chapel door unlocked until she went inside.

Also I went back and reread the discovery scene and found some interesting things. First Krauss states that he didn't hear anything coming from Kinzo's room. Krauss knows Kinzo is dead but he was trying to keep up the appearance of him being alive so Krauss more likely than not would have lied about this saying he heard Kinzo. Another thing though is in order for Yasu's closed room to work the Parlor has to be the first room checked and interestingly enough Krauss suggests they check the Parlor first.

So I think Krauss is an Accomplice in EP3

Last edited by Valkama; 2012-11-09 at 23:22.
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Old 2012-11-10, 01:11   Link #31132
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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
Yes the key was in the fifth room they checked. But it wasn't needed. All Yasu would have to do is use the turn locks and keep the chapel door unlocked until she went inside.

Also I went back and reread the discovery scene and found some interesting things. First Krauss states that he didn't hear anything coming from Kinzo's room. Krauss knows Kinzo is dead but he was trying to keep up the appearance of him being alive so Krauss more likely than not would have lied about this saying he heard Kinzo. Another thing though is in order for Yasu's closed room to work the Parlor has to be the first room checked and interestingly enough Krauss suggests they check the Parlor first.

So I think Krauss is an Accomplice in EP3
Just a question, does the narrative at some point mentions if the chapel could be locked from inside without the key? Because if it does then the Krauss EP3 Accomplice theory will have some solid proof.

Also, chapel was unlocked the whole time till that moment if that theory is true. If I recall correctly EP2 also had the chapel unlocked for the whole Halloween trick to work, right?

Last edited by Joeyscraggy; 2012-11-10 at 01:12. Reason: fixed little mistake
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Old 2012-11-10, 02:09   Link #31133
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Originally Posted by Joeyscraggy View Post
Just a question, does the narrative at some point mentions if the chapel could be locked from inside without the key? Because if it does then the Krauss EP3 Accomplice theory will have some solid proof.

Also, chapel was unlocked the whole time till that moment if that theory is true. If I recall correctly EP2 also had the chapel unlocked for the whole Halloween trick to work, right?
I don't think it says anything explicitly, (unless you count that poorly worded red from EP2) but, assuming ShKanon, the chapel has to be lockable from the inside without a key. Otherwise Kanon wouldn't be able to lock himself inside after being discovered as Shannon.

Either that, or the Halloween trick. But I don't think it ever mentioned who opened the door to the chapel, so I'd prefer not to think that's how it was done... Really, the whole linked closed room is wide open if you start suspecting the discoverers. All needed is one accomplice anywhere to plant a single key or envelope, or just to lie and say one certain door or window was locked when it wasn't.

Though Krauss saying that Kinzo didn't seem to be in his room was suspiciously convenient for him and Natsuhi. Imagine if he said he had spoken to Kinzo, and then a few minutes later they found the corpse in the boiler room...
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Old 2012-11-10, 04:44   Link #31134
Kiltias
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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
Yes the key was in the fifth room they checked. But it wasn't needed. All Yasu would have to do is use the turn locks and keep the chapel door unlocked until she went inside.
No device exists which can lock them without a key.

Doesn't that contradict this red?


Also:
Furthermore, all of the doors and windows in the 6 rooms are normal
All windows and doors leading to the outside were locked from the inside.
How'd she get out herself then?
Window is impossible and the door was locked from the inside.
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Old 2012-11-10, 05:42   Link #31135
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Well, that second red is easy to get around; it's referring to the time when the bodies were discovered, so obviously the door was locked from the inside when the 'corpse' was found. That doesn't mean it was locked from the inside forever - heck, of course it doesn't, since the adults have to unlock the doors to find the corpses in the first place!

That first red is pretty odd, though. I'm guessing it just means that there's no device that can lock them without a key from the inside...Anyone have any idea what the Japanese says?
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Old 2012-11-10, 06:27   Link #31136
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I could be wrong, but I thought when Beato did her definition of a closed room she said that red, but then made it clear the doors and windows could still be locked from the inside as a normal door or window could be. Sort of a

"you need a key to lock or unlock this door"
"oh, and of course you can just lock it too if you are inside"
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Old 2012-11-10, 10:30   Link #31137
theacefrehley
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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
No device exists which can lock them without a key.

Doesn't that contradict this red?


Also:
Furthermore, all of the doors and windows in the 6 rooms are normal
All windows and doors leading to the outside were locked from the inside.
How'd she get out herself then?
Window is impossible and the door was locked from the inside.
All windows and doors leading to the outside were locked from the inside.

This red comes when they are discussing how George escaped from the guesthouse, in EP3. It has nothing to do with the chain of closed rooms.

EDIT: Forget this part, didn't read your context. Sorry!!!!


*オートロックのような、鍵を使用せず施錠できるような仕掛けは存在しない*。
No device exists which can lock them without a key, such as an auto-lock.

My japanese is not perfect, but the expression 'such as an auto-lock' could be read as a restrictive expression, instead of as an 'example' expression.

In other words, you could read it as:

Auto-lock like mechanisms that can lock without the use of key, don't exist.

Instead of:

Any device that can lock without a key doesn't exist, for example, auto-lock.



Then all you have to do is say: auto-lock =/= turn lock



Someone with decent japanese knowledge can correct me
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Last edited by theacefrehley; 2012-11-10 at 10:49.
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Old 2012-11-10, 13:28   Link #31138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
All windows and doors leading to the outside were locked from the inside.

This red comes when they are discussing how George escaped from the guesthouse, in EP3. It has nothing to do with the chain of closed rooms.

EDIT: Forget this part, didn't read your context. Sorry!!!!


*オートロックのような、鍵を使用せず施錠できるような仕掛けは存在しない*。
No device exists which can lock them without a key, such as an auto-lock.

My japanese is not perfect, but the expression 'such as an auto-lock' could be read as a restrictive expression, instead of as an 'example' expression.

In other words, you could read it as:

Auto-lock like mechanisms that can lock without the use of key, don't exist.

Instead of:

Any device that can lock without a key doesn't exist, for example, auto-lock.



Then all you have to do is say: auto-lock =/= turn lock



Someone with decent japanese knowledge can correct me
Allright then lets say it was a turn lock for arguments sake.
That means Yasu locked it from inside the room, as personally I've never seen a turn lock outside the room/outer door.
And if she locked it from the inside, she must have gotten out somehow and a Window is a no go seeing as it requires a massive device of sorts to leave from the second floor and managing to lock the window from the outisde to create an actual locked room.If the window would be open, the locked room wouldn't exist.
So in order to create the locked room scenario a locked/closed window is neccessary and as said, if the turn lock was inside the window is the sole way of exit unless there is a hidden passage.
And I am also sure, a open window would have been noticed,

And again, in order to lock the chapel, Yasu needs the chapel key and:
In short, all keys related to the linked closed rooms were locked inside the linked closed rooms!!

Implies the chapel was indeed locked otherwise there wouldn't be a linked closed room cycle unless there is a way to lock the chapel from the inside.

Though then again we got in red that its impossible to unlock the chapel without the key for it and if a way to lock it from the inside would exist it would also mean its impossible to unlock it from the inside which seems more than just too weird.

Of course we can say:
Yasu locked it from the outside with her Master Key, however that doesn't work for the chapel seeing as the sole key for it was in room 5, and if the chapel wasn't locked, there are no linked closed rooms just:
Room 1: Locked
Room 2: Locked
Room 3: Locked
Room 4: locked
Room 5: Locked
Room 6: Not locked
See, that way, it can be in no way regarded as linked closed rooms which it is though in red that the closed rooms are linked.

Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-11-10 at 13:40.
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Old 2012-11-10, 13:41   Link #31139
Drifloon
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I'm not sure what your problem is...The chapel will remain locked from the inside for as long as Kanon stays in there. There's absolutely no reason why it should need to remain a closed room forever after the discoverers have left; why would they go back to the chapel to check?

The chapel is certainly locked during the time that the red is referring to.
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Old 2012-11-10, 14:06   Link #31140
Valkama
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If I remember the theory on that correctly it goes like this:

The Chapel was never locked until Yasu hid in it and then locked it from the inside with the turn lock. A turn lock has been used to lock and unlock doors in Umineko before so this shouldn't be out of the question. The adults never checked the chapel until after Yasu hid inside it so this is possible.

They first check the parlor where they find Shannon dead then they confiscate the keys and follow the closed room trail. Yasu then leaves the room and goes to the chapel disguising as Kanon on the way. Yasu then locks the chapel with the turn lock and fakes dead. The adults find the chapel locked and use the chapel key to unlock it. They then confiscate the Parlor key and the closed room chain is complete. No Keys are needed at all for this process.

The problem that seems to be happening is the Truth about impossible to lock without a key. But this truth is referring to tools like auto locks not turn locks. EP8's mystery uses turn locks so if you interpret it like it's only possible to lock them with a key then a lot more logic errors are form.
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