Why is Gundam Seed Destiny so controversial?

[aeriolewinters]

And it ended at the end of Final Plus with Shinn realizing that sometimes you can't protect everybody, but as long as you're still alive, you can still try to do better for the future.

But Final Plus didn't exist in the original ending... Also, the rollercoaster on-off magazine interviews tell us otherwise that Kira and Co. are the good guys, or the bad guys... tell us otherwise.

The fact that they needed SE and Final Plus to clean up their mess tells us how GSD failed. Thus ending this ridiculous speculation that somehow, Kira wasn't the main character for SEED D's final I don't know, 20+ episodes? Also, when the director is like a slot machine when asked about Kira and his pink-haired companion's morals are alligned to, You'd know that the series is a failure at literary value.

[monster]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

But Final Plus didn't exist in the original ending...

So? It still exists as part of the story.

Also, the rollercoaster on-off magazine interviews tell us otherwise that Kira and Co. are the good guys, or the bad guys... tell us otherwise.

It tells you nothing. Whether or not Kira is good doesn't change the fact his character is not expected to change in Destiny. There's no significant conflict for Kira in Destiny, which makes him suitable as a supporting character, anime presentation notwithstanding.

[aeriolewinters]

So? It still exists as part of the story.

And Mwu was restored by Quantum Physics.

It tells you nothing. Whether or not Kira is good doesn't change the fact his character is not expected to change in Destiny. There's no significant conflict for Kira in Destiny, which makes him suitable as a supporting character, anime presentation notwithstanding.

Which is why you're disillusioned. The fact that Kira is thrust to the spotlight while having no character conflict at all, means that you'll most likely think that he's just a background character, but it is what it is, we have witnessed a shift in POV because during the first half of Destiny, we clearly saw that Shinn was the focal point of the story, his actions determined what would happen in small scale and even on the larger scale. We clearly saw this shift when suddenly, All 15-20 episodes were already painting things inversely. For the first half, Kira and co. were really nuisances on the battlefield with a distorted view, the second half however paints them as justified in what they were doing starting off with the revalation that Dullindal planned to kill Lacus, which forces Athrun to leave. This shift from ZAFT being the justified ones, to ZAFT being the big baddies is apparent in the series.

Are you telling me that giving Kira the majority of the spotlight in the final episodes means that he's just a supporting character. Humor me but that's like telling me that Vaan is the main character of FFXII and Ashe is a Supporting Character.

The fact that you have the director fluctuating his answer in order to make his story acceptable to a specific group means that there are real mistakes that riddled the series.

There's no significant conflict for Kira in Destiny, which makes him suitable as a supporting character, anime presentation notwithstanding.

Which was a mistake again: There are a plethora of realistically geared scenarios for Kira that would've added flavor to him. The staff just wanted to cash in on his popularity.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by monstert

So? It still exists as part of the story. It tells you nothing. Whether or not Kira is good doesn't change the fact his character is not expected to change in Destiny. There's no significant conflict for Kira in Destiny, which makes him suitable as a supporting character, anime presentation notwithstanding.

Kira's character did change though. He went from being some guy lackng in direction about what he's supposed to be doing, someone who keeps saying he doesn't want to fight, someone who spends two years sitting around in a tropical island staring at the sky, to someone who says he's determined to fight to protect the world from war.

That's a pretty big shift.

[winter45]

Originally Posted by brightman

Kira's character did change though. He went from being some guy lackng in direction about what he's supposed to be doing, someone who keeps saying he doesn't want to fight, someone who spends two years sitting around in a tropical island staring at the sky, to someone who says he's determined to fight to protect the world from war.

That's a pretty big shift.

And surprising enough most kira fans just dont get this.....

@ aeriolewinters

Some peeps will believe that directorship or management in regards to anime are flawless and always their final product is what is ment to be intended. For the most part i do agree with your points in regards to the major shifts in production. Some points you make are blatant obvious but not everyone will agree.

[aeriolewinters]

Kira's character did change though. He went from being some guy lackng in direction about what he's supposed to be doing, someone who keeps saying he doesn't want to fight, someone who spends two years sitting around in a tropical island staring at the sky and contemplating about the one that got away.That's you, Fllay., to someone who says he's determined to fight to protect the world from war.

Fixed for more truth.

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by brightman

Kira's character did change though. He went from being some guy lackng in direction about what he's supposed to be doing, someone who keeps saying he doesn't want to fight, someone who spends two years sitting around in a tropical island staring at the sky, to someone who says he's determined to fight to protect the world from war.

That's a pretty big shift.

Well, technically, he would've stayed as the guy sitting around in a tropical island staring at the sky had the Power rangers High-tech squad ZAFT execution squad came to kill him.

Sure, they got wiped out in miliseconds minutes, after a long hard-fought battle in which they nearly ass-raped Freedom, but psch, they did their purpose.

[winter45]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Well, technically, he would've stayed as the guy sitting around in a tropical island staring at the sky had the Power rangers High-tech squad ZAFT execution squad came to kill him.

Gone thru this argument before. Could you pls state where does it mention those were actually zaft units? only description that was given is from andrew who stated that they were co-ordinators... as we all know EA and orb as well as martians also has co-ordinators as part of their citizens and military.

So why is ZAFT automatically blamed for something they cannot prove?

And all 3 of those factions have proven they are quite capable of producing new military hardware.

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by winter45

Gone thru this argument before. Could you pls state where does it mention those were actually zaft units? only description that was given is from andrew who stated that they were co-ordinators... as we all know EA and orb as well as martians also has co-ordinators as part of their citizens and military.

So why is ZAFT automatically blamed for something they cannot prove?

And all 3 of those factions have proven they are quite capable of producing new military hardware.

Well your right they didn't have concrete proof but Andrew also mentioned he recognized the design of the Ash from specs he had seem as a new Zaft model that was just barely starting production.

[aeriolewinters]

Well your right they didn't have concrete proof but Andrew also mentioned he recognized the design of the Ash from specs he had seem as a new Zaft model that was just barely starting production.

The assassination wasn't really the spark that lit the matchstick, it was Meer's appearance. When Meer appeared, it is relatively reasonable to have suspiscions against PLANT. Had Meer never appeared, I'd assume that Kira wouldn't get pissed off, thus he'd be less willing to attack ZAFT forces.

[jonli]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Kira's character did change though. He went from being some guy lackng in direction about what he's supposed to be doing, someone who keeps saying he doesn't want to fight, someone who spends two years sitting around in a tropical island staring at the sky and contemplating about the one that vaporized into space dust (yes that is bitch Flay).To someone who says he's determined to fight to protect the world from war.

Fixed for even MORE truth.

I would say the major problem with his transformation is that it happens so fast without any conflict. It just switches from him sitting on a chair not saying a word to "I can fight again DERP cuz my girlfriend hid the strongest super weapon in our basement...it's also against the freaking law but she's a pop-star...no big deal tee hee". Then his character remained like that without any justification of his actions, even when he was questioned about his ideals he just blurts stuff out like Cagalli's crying. The audience is not stupid (well most of us) and we actually do demand some kind of reason behind actions but it was just that and he felt really...passive...the way he delivers his lines felt very dead and soulless.

[aeriolewinters]

The audience is not stupid (well most of us) and we actually do demand some kind of reason behind actions but it was just that and he felt really...passive...the way he delivers his lines felt very dead and soulless.
__________________

I'd think the reason is.... fear actually. When Lacus was going to be assassinated, Kira was once again betrayed by his instinct, he sets off because he wants to protect Lacus. He doesn't want to lose Lacus the same way he lost the other oneagain, that's you Fllay.

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

The assassination wasn't really the spark that lit the matchstick, it was Meer's appearance. When Meer appeared, it is relatively reasonable to have suspiscions against PLANT. Had Meer never appeared, I'd assume that Kira wouldn't get pissed off, thus he'd be less willing to attack ZAFT forces.

I would say both played a pretty close to an equal part because while having someone impersonate Lacus was sleazey it certainly isn't on the same level as sending a heavely armed hit squad after a pontential political opponent. What I meant by not very concrete was that given how many machines had found there way into 3rd parties hands by this point a Zaft MS isn't the smoking gun you would exspect it to be.

[monster]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

And Mwu was restored by Quantum Physics.

We can agree that Mwu being in Destiny is bad. But if you're going to ignore that Mwu is apparently still alive, then that's just wrong.

Which is why you're disillusioned. The fact that Kira is thrust to the spotlight while having no character conflict at all, means that you'll most likely think that he's just a background character, but it is what it is, we have witnessed a shift in POV because during the first half of Destiny, we clearly saw that Shinn was the focal point of the story, his actions determined what would happen in small scale and even on the larger scale. We clearly saw this shift when suddenly, All 15-20 episodes were already painting things inversely. For the first half, Kira and co. were really nuisances on the battlefield with a distorted view, the second half however paints them as justified in what they were doing starting off with the revalation that Dullindal planned to kill Lacus, which forces Athrun to leave. This shift from ZAFT being the justified ones, to ZAFT being the big baddies is apparent in the series.

Once again, you're mixing things up. At what point during this so called change was the development in Kira's character any more important to the story?

Are you telling me that giving Kira the majority of the spotlight in the final episodes means that he's just a supporting character. Humor me but that's like telling me that Vaan is the main character of FFXII and Ashe is a Supporting Character.

I've never played FFXII. But if you've played FFIX, what you're saying is like saying since I killed Zidane from my party during the last quarter of the game, that suddenly makes Zidane not the main character of the story in FFIX.

That's just absurd. I could go through the whole game without having Zidane being an active member and it still wouldn't change that the story is about him. The same thing with Destiny. The fact that you were shown Archangel's POV doesn't change that Kira did not suddenly become important. In fact, if any one is important among the Archangel crew, it's Lacus and Athrun. Lacus for being the leader and Athrun for being the connection to Shinn.

The fact that you have the director fluctuating his answer in order to make his story acceptable to a specific group means that there are real mistakes that riddled the series.

So Fukuda is not perfect, whatever.

Which was a mistake again: There are a plethora of realistically geared scenarios for Kira that would've added flavor to him. The staff just wanted to cash in on his popularity.

Bececause they don't need to. Kira is not at the center of the story.

Let me put it this way:

I can agree if you were to say that Kira is the poster boy of SEED. That is not questionable. And they did capitalize on that during the last half of Destiny.

However, that did not change the fact that, other than reaffirming his willingness to fight, Kira did nothing for most of the series, even at the end, other than simply to fight.

Originally Posted by brightman

Kira's character did change though. He went from being some guy lackng in direction about what he's supposed to be doing, someone who keeps saying he doesn't want to fight, someone who spends two years sitting around in a tropical island staring at the sky, to someone who says he's determined to fight to protect the world from war.

That's a pretty big shift.

It certainly is, but I'd argue it's something that Kira's already had within him. In fact, that's the whole point of Kira's development in SEED. And he's reaffirmed that in the episode where he repilots Freedom and in Messiah.

Kira's always been willing to fight since SEED. But more importantly, it was Lacus who decided she could have a purpose in PLANTs, and Kira's simply there to join her.

That still doen't compare to the ongoing development that Shinn had to put up with, between listening to Athrun or to Rey. How Stellar's death and Athrun's desertion drove him one way, the reappearance of Kira and Athrun, the final fight that made him careless, etc. All culminating in having to choose whether he would keep his pessimistic thinking or choosing, like Rey had, that there could still be a better future. That the flowers could still be replanted, so to speak.

Originally Posted by winter45

And surprising enough most kira fans just dont get this.....

I hope you're not referring to me. Because I've mentioned the same thing in previous posts.

Some peeps will believe that directorship or management in regards to anime are flawless and always their final product is what is ment to be intended. For the most part i do agree with your points in regards to the major shifts in production. Some points you make are blatant obvious but not everyone will agree.

On the contrary, I do realize that the production of Destiny may be flawed. That is why I'm not just going to look at the OP title and see SF and think that Kira is the main character without looking at the actual story.

[aeriolewinters]

That is why I'm not just going to look at the OP title and see SF and think that Kira is the main character without looking at the actual story.

Um what's your point? Can we put Star Trek's OP on here? Imagine if you advertised the OP of Trek then tell us that the Enterprise was not the main ship of the story. Tell us how in the blue hell that you can tell us that in Star trek, the ship featured in the OP Credits, isn't the actual main character's ship, by golly.

Also, while were at it discussing OP's and loltastic 'disillusions. Are you telling the whole General Viewing public that Shinn was still the main character? Suure He is. Are you telling me that Fukuda was patheticly using Kira and co in the opening to dupe people into watching, believing that Kira is the main attraction of the show? Seriously, think about it.

But if you've played FFIX, what you're saying is like saying since I killed Zidane from my party during the last quarter of the game, that suddenly makes Zidane not the main character of the story in FFIX.

Except that Vaan and Zidane are totally different cases, I don't care about the game proper. I care about the CGI story telling, and the story itself. And in no shape way or size that Zidane was derailed to relinquish his main character status. If you kill Zidane in the final battle in the game, but you still win, nothing relevant happens, Because it's game proper. The same thing happens when you kill ultimecia without squall in your party, big deal.
I used Vaan because Fan was said to be the main character, but instead he's a red herring because he's just a bystander who got tagged along with a Princess Queen trying to save her Kingdom, a Sky Pirate who's had a bad life with his father, and his girlfriend. Can you tell me that Vaan is still the main character after XII is finished? NO, you cannot. Maybe Revenant wings, but not the proper FFXII.

However, that did not change the fact that, other than reaffirming his willingness to fight, Kira did nothing for most of the series, even at the end, other than simply to fight.

Wrong. Suure, let's pretend that Kira never accepted the challenge of fighting for a changing world. Let's pretend that Kira never decides a path for them(remarkably, Kira chose the final path which lead to Gilbert's defeat). Let's pretend that Kira never laments on anything. Sure Shinn had many changes, but as the series went by, you'd see that the focal point is being veered away from him.

Again I bring up the 'Meer' and the 'Shopping' episodes. How are they related to Shinn? Why in the blue hell would they make a Lacus 'filler' episode when Lacus isn't even related to Shinn. Shouldn't they have had a Luna episode instead?


Shinn is just like that, in the first half the story is all about him, his views of the Attha's, his views on Orb, his attitude....everything was about him. But then the second half happens. Suddenly the focus shifts away from him. Suure, lets all assume that Shinn is still the main character when Clearly the focus, momentum and the fanfare was clearly beginning to point to....
*the fiance stealin'*
*redhead lovin'*
*Ultimate Coordinator*
Kira Hibiki err... Yamato!?

[monster]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Um what's your point? Can we put Star Trek's OP on here? Imagine if you advertised the OP of Trek then tell us that the Enterprise was not the main ship of the story. Tell us how in the blue hell that you can tell us that in Star trek, the ship featured in the OP Credits, isn't the actual main character's ship, by golly.

Star Trek has less production issues than Destiny.

Also, while were at it discussing OP's and loltastic 'disillusions. Are you telling the whole General Viewing public that Shinn was still the main character? Suure He is. Are you telling me that Fukuda was patheticly using Kira and co in the opening to dupe people into watching, believing that Kira is the main attraction of the show? Seriously, think about it.

Why not? When you factor in that Shinn was always meant to be the main character and that people seem to like Kira more than Shinn, that's as plausible an explanation as any Destiny hater could come up with.

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Shinn is just like that, in the first half the story is all about him, his views of the Attha's, his views on Orb, his attitude....everything was about him. But then the second half happens. Suddenly the focus shifts away from him. Suure, lets all assume that Shinn is still the main character when Clearly the focus, momentum and the fanfare was clearly beginning to point to....
*the fiance stealin'*
*redhead lovin'*
*Ultimate Coordinator*
Kira Hibiki err... Yamato!?

And yet where was the spotlight in the final battle? It's on Athrun and Shinn.
Where was the spotlight in the Messiah scene? It's on Rey.
And where was the spotlight in Final Plus ending? It's on Shinn.

[aeriolewinters]

And yet where was the spotlight in the final battle? It's on Athrun and Shinn.

You do realize that Athrun is Kira's sidekick?

Where was the spotlight in the Messiah scene? It's on Rey.

Invalid. Rey was just there to affirm that Kira was 'right'

And where was the spotlight in Final Plus ending? It's on Shinn.

See Answer #2

And besides. had everything been focused on Shinn, he wouldn't have acted that way in the scene, it would be all too planned out. And Final Plus was a rush job.
Again, it was a way to show Kira's thoughts. The whole scene itself was the Answer to what Shinn asked? To whom?

You'd probably know that the answer is Kira.

so try again.

Star Trek has less production issues than Destiny.

Wrong. It's called Enterprise: Stick with the program


But that doesn't disprove the logic I made that any self respecting director would put his main character in the opening. You won't see a bird-of-prey be in the opening credits of Star Trek, when they say that the Enterprise is the main ship.

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Um what's your point? Can we put Star Trek's OP on here? Imagine if you advertised the OP of Trek then tell us that the Enterprise was not the main ship of the story. Tell us how in the blue hell that you can tell us that in Star trek, the ship featured in the OP Credits, isn't the actual main character's ship, by golly.

That's probably a really bad analogy since Star Trek has had 2 series not center around a ship named Enterprise or are you trying to say that GSD is the Gundam version of either Voyager or DS9.

[monster]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

You do realize that Athrun is Kira's sidekick?

Nonsense, whatever you think about Athrun's relationship with Kira, it doesn't change his accomplishments. So the spotlight is still on him.

Invalid. Rey was just there to affirm that Kira was 'right'

See Answer #2

That's irrelevant. Believing in someone else doesn't diminish the importance of your decision to do so. So the spotlight is still on them.

And besides. had everything been focused on Shinn, he wouldn't have acted that way in the scene, it would be all too planned out. And Final Plus was a rush job.
Again, it was a way to show Kira's thoughts. The whole scene itself was the Answer to what Shinn asked? To whom?

You'd probably know that the answer is Kira.

so try again.

Again, that's irrelevant. Kira's been that way throughout the entire Destiny. So that scene was more important for Shinn than it is for Kira.

Wrong. It's called Enterprise: Stick with the program

I am, with Destiny. And guess who's been in Destiny for the entire length of the series. Oh that's right, Shinn.

But that doesn't disprove the logic I made that any self respecting director would put his main character in the opening. You won't see a bird-of-prey be in the opening credits of Star Trek, when they say that the Enterprise is the main ship.

And hence, why I said there were questionable decisions on the part of Destiny's production. That's at least the third time I've said this. Get with the program.

[aeriolewinters]

Nonsense, whatever you think about Athrun's relationship with Kira, it doesn't change his accomplishments. So the spotlight is still on him.

Oh suure, lets all pretend that Athrun had done anything in the season except for lose against Kira, argue against Kira and lose, or Argue for Kira and almost get killed. Everything Athrun has done has been influenced by Kira's actions. Would you think that Athrun'd defect without Kira? Of course not.

That's probably a really bad analogy since Star Trek has had 2 series not center around a ship named Enterprise or are you trying to say that GSD is the Gundam version of either Voyager or DS9.

You're misquoting me. I am not suggesting that,monstert is. Also If I was to parallelize Gundam to Star Trek Correctly, I would say that SEED Destiny is like Generations, only difference is that Kirk survives and takes over the movie and is eventually given the Enterprise-E as his flagship for his successful return as Starfleet Admiral while Picard is given yet another Galaxy-class Starship.

Again, that's irrelevant. Kira's been that way throughout the entire Destiny. So that scene was more important for Shinn than it is for Kira.

No, he did change in Destiny. Kira has become more assertive in Destiny. He has become touchy feely with losing someone important to him.

I am, with Destiny. And guess who's been in Destiny for the entire length of the series. Oh that's right, Shinn.

Vaan was in the entire length of XII, and he's still the red herring of that game. Also one can argue that Kira's role in Destiny is like Ramza's in FFT. Ramza was the war of the lion's 'other' hidden hero. Delita's role is somewhat similar to Shinn's role, except that he was corrupted not with an evil overlord geneticist, he was corrupted by his desire to protect the one he loves. and much like Shinn almost killed Luna during the final battle, Delita kills Ovelia.

And hence, why I said there were questionable decisions on the part of Destiny's production. That's at least the third time I've said this. Get with the program.

So why is it hard to admit that giving Kira the spotlight for the last 15 episodes and subsequently made him the main character? I know why, that's because this is the root of those questionable decisions. Why else would they put SF on the title sequence when the titular Gundam is Destiny? Why else would they shift in POV's at the middle of the season? Because the staff succumbs to fan pressure.

Final Plus was never about Shinn, you're wrong. It was suppossed to tell Shinn that 'you're wrong, we're right' that was the point of bringing him to the memorial. Even if Kira's aooearance in the actual snippet was brief, might as well throw this in but weren't the visitations of Jesus after His ressurection to the disciples brief as well? The point is that they were waiting for Kira and Lacus to appear. Also, the extended ending in Special Edition are focused on three people, Kira, Lacus and Athrun, who is just the narrator.

The point of the scene was this:
1. to prove to shinn that he was wrong, and that Kira was right. Look at Shinn's reaction to what Kira said.
2. to prove to luna that the real lacus was indeed with them.