Is Anime being abused?

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Theowne

I applaud your restraint. My response would have been something like, "What planet is this person from?". That's the only way I would understand connecting maturity with fanservice.

I believe I have clarified that my position was that maturity is connected with not freaking out over fanserivce. However, since this apparently is insufficient repentance for my sins, the original post has now been edited in an attempt to clarify my position as well.

Originally Posted by Theowne

Scenes involving sex as a storytelling element are not the same as gratuitous fanservice. See: Kare Kano. Or Honey and Clover.

Minimalism is, of course, a totally valid approach to sexual content. It is also far from the only legitimate approach to the subject. Using tabasco sauce on my food is pretty gratuitous too.

[Mueti]

I personally don't care for fanservice but I don't hate on it either. If an anime has to rely on it, chances are it hasn't had that much going for it in the first place. I've certainly never watched a show that had its greatly depicted characters and enthralling story ruined by too much fanservice.
So I just ignore those shows and watch the ones I'm interested in.

Two things though:
1) I have to disagree with the sentiment that every remotely erotic scene is by definition "fanservice". It is not the same thing.

2) What I dislike about the concept is mainly the image the general non-anime-watching public is getting from it. If you ask your random clueless person, anime and hentai are pretty much the same thing. I blame that misinformation partly on the prevalence of fanservice-y animes.

[Theowne]

Originally Posted by Mueti

1) I have to disagree with the sentiment that every remotely erotic scene is by definition "fanservice". It is not the same thing.

Yes, I'm not sure what definition is being tossed around here, but sex used as a legitimate element of the plot is not what I consider fanservice, minimalist or not. It's a question of whether it contributes to the narrative, or whether it exists to titillate viewers.

I've certainly never watched a show that had its greatly depicted characters and enthralling story ruined by too much fanservice.

For the most part I agree. Fanservice tends to indicate a show that's aiming for the lowest common denominators and it's easy to avoid them.

[Js2756]

Honestly, what I think this thread really demonstrates is that history has a really good crap filter.

[Slice of Life]

Fanservice = whatever introduced to please the fan.

Originally Posted by Mueti

1) I have to disagree with the sentiment that every remotely erotic scene is by definition "fanservice". It is not the same thing.

I'd like to replace "erotic" with another term, because most people wouldn't consider panty flashes, lingerie flying through the air, into-the-wrong-onsen-department-stumbling, or tripping-and-bust-into-somebody's-face-shoving as erotic. And these make up the majority of fan service scenes.

And while you are of course right, it is also true that not only the majority but the overwhelming majority of ... how to call it instead ... sex-related scenes is fanservice, so that there is a distinction is not really important most of the time.

And the sex scenes that have relevance to the plot aren't necessarily erotic either. Actually probably even less often than fan service.

And just to make clear, fanservice = an element introduced mainly to please the fan. It's not necessarily sex related. Your favoirie voice actor singing through 5 minutes of an episode for no apparent reason is fan service too.

I still don't understand why hating fan service scenes should be "immature". Most people would agree that they hate ad breaks on TV. It means that it is something they'd like to avoid but realistically can't.

[animeboy12]

Originally Posted by Js2756

Honestly, what I think this thread really demonstrates is that history has a really good crap filter.

Nostalgia is like a grammar lesson: you find the present tense, but the past perfect! ~Owens Lee Pomeroy

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

I still don't understand why hating fan service scenes should be "immature". Most people would agree that they hate ad breaks on TV. It means that it is something they'd like to avoid but realistically can't.

I don't think anyone said that. If anything people were misinterpreting 0utf0xZer0's statement on the last page.

[Mueti]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

I'd like to replace "erotic" with another term, because most people wouldn't consider panty flashes, lingerie flying through the air, into-the-wrong-onsen-department-stumbling, or tripping-and-bust-into-somebody's-face-shoving as erotic. And these make up the majority of fan service scenes.

True, but I can't really come up with something better.

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

And while you are of course right, it is also true that not only the majority but the overwhelming majority of ... how to call it instead ... sex-related scenes is fanservice, so that there is a distinction is not really important most of the time.

You're probably right when we're talking about the general status quo - but since that differs from my own perception (as I don't watch those shows) I'd like the distinction to be made.

And I think it's clear that fanservice doesn't have to be...sex-related, as you put it. I was under the impression that that particular kind was the talking point right now though.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

I still don't understand why hating fan service scenes should be "immature". Most people would agree that they hate ad breaks on TV. It means that it is something they'd like to avoid but realistically can't.

Hating ad breaks is not immature. I would submit that freaking out and going on rants when an ad break comes on is.

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

I'd like to replace "erotic" with another term, because most people wouldn't consider panty flashes, lingerie flying through the air, into-the-wrong-onsen-department-stumbling, or tripping-and-bust-into-somebody's-face-shoving as erotic. And these make up the majority of fan service scenes.

Which I'd submit is a much, much larger issue than the mere existence of fanservice. Evoking an erotic response from the audience is a legitimate goal for a scene in a show aimed at a mature audience, but the vast majority of anime fanservice seems to assume a lack of sophistication in its audience. I personally suspect that much of it is intended as lowbrow humour more than anything else.

Originally Posted by Theowne

Yes, I'm not sure what definition is being tossed around here, but sex used as a legitimate element of the plot is not what I consider fanservice, minimalist or not. It's a question of whether it contributes to the narrative, or whether it exists to titillate viewers.

That's a distinction that isn't always clear. For example, in the case of the Clannad gym storage shed scene, I think it's safe to assume the writers executed it that way to let the audience see Kyou act embarassed in gym shorts and thigh highs. However, if I remember right it's also the scene that makes it clear that Kyou may have feelings towards Okazaki - previous to this she appears to be supporting her sister pairing up with him. So it has some bearing on the plot as well.

And I would argue that the execution of this scene was a totally legitimate decision in a show targeting a mature audience. No need to tone it down.

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

For example, in the case of the Clannad gym storage shed scene, I think it's safe to assume the writers executed it that way to let the audience see Kyou act embarassed in gym shorts and thigh highs. However, if I remember right it's also the scene that makes it clear that Kyou may have feelings towards Okazaki - previous to this she appears to be supporting her sister pairing up with him. So it has some bearing on the plot as well.

And I would argue that the execution of this scene was a totally legitimate decision in a show targeting a mature audience. No need to tone it down.

Clannad is for mature audience you say???

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Clannad is for mature audience you say???

If you have evidence to the contrary you are welcome to state it.

[roriconfan]

Spoiler for ending:

Magical ressurections for a forced happy ending.

[animeboy12]

^
spoilers?

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by animeboy12

^
spoilers?

Thanks, was about to make that mistake myself.

Spoiler for Clannad:

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Magical ressurections for a forced happy ending.

Key's weird supernatural endings have always been one of my pet peeves about their works and one of the reasons I think they're overrated - my understanding of Key's symbolism basically goes as far as "Makoto's arc in Kanon is a remix of some kitsune legends". However, I would also argue that the very obtuse symbolism and narration of Clannad's ending demonstrates that it is intended for a mature audience.

[Archon_Wing]

What does that have to do with mature audiences anyways?

[animeboy12]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

What does that have to do with mature audiences anyways?

*shrugs shoulders* If something wanted me to proclaim that Clannad is a great piece of work, I'll do it but mature IMO is a different story.

If anything though watching Ergo Proxy and texhnolyze have taught me that "mature" and/or "sophisticated" works don't always equate to some type of high quality, they usually do, but I've seen my fair share that end up being nothing but pseudo philosophical bantering.

(why do I have a bad feeling that this topic is getting off-topic)

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by animeboy12

*shrugs shoulders* If something wanted me to proclaim that Clannad is a great piece of work, I'll do it but mature IMO is a different story.

I think the way "mature" was used was just that the show was directed towards older people, not mature as in sophistication. Since I do believe it was on late night tv, it could be that way. But the talk about other stuff like the ending just seemed like a red herring.

If anything though watching Ergo Proxy and texhnolyze have taught me that "mature" and/or "sophisticated" works don't always equate to some type of high quality, they usually do, but I've seen my fair share that end up being nothing but pseudo philosophical bantering.

I agree. Often depends on how well the concepts are handled.

(why do I have a bad feeling that this topic is getting off-topic)

There really wasn't much to discuss in the first place, since these things ultimately come down to preference.

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by animeboy12

*shrugs shoulders* If something wanted me to proclaim that Clannad is a great piece of work, I'll do it but mature IMO is a different story.

If anything though watching Ergo Proxy and texhnolyze have taught me that "mature" and/or "sophisticated" works don't always equate to some type of high quality, they usually do, but I've seen my fair share that end up being nothing but pseudo philosophical bantering.

You said it my man. Many confuse a mature story with an ideal story.
Clannad is an ideal story. Not mature. Same for all those K-Ons and Arias.

Many can dislike Neon Genesis for its lead and the whole weird presentation (ie mecha) but it is a mature story.

And you, Clannad fan boys, stop lowering my reputation just because I am questionning your God Clannad being not mature.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I think the way "mature" was used was just that the show was directed towards older people, not mature as in sophistication. Since I do believe it was on late night tv, it could be that way. But the talk about other stuff like the ending just seemed like a red herring.


I agree. Often depends on how well the concepts are handled.

Well, this red herring ruined the whole realism of the series. And what does "older people" means? Older than 12? Is the average anime fan 14 years old? In that sense all romances without mecha are for "mature" people.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Theowne

I applaud your restraint.

Thanks.

Scenes involving sex as a storytelling element are not the same as gratuitous fanservice.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Mueti

Two things though:
1) I have to disagree with the sentiment that every remotely erotic scene is by definition "fanservice". It is not the same thing.

You're right, but unfortunately there's a lot of overlap here within anime (if we replace 'erotic' with 'sex-related').

Truthfully, if an anime romance was to culminate in an erotic sex scene presented seriously (and if the anime with that romance in it is geared towards a mature audience - I wouldn't want this in Pokemon, for example, lol), I'd be pleased. It would be a welcomed change from the way romances are frequently handled in anime; which is, to say, in a vague non-committal, presumably they're going to consummate their romance but we just don't know, kind of way.

A marriage scene (if the romance goes that far) can have much the same effect, in fairness, but that's pretty rare as well, at least going by my own somewhat limited experience.

2) What I dislike about the concept is mainly the image the general non-anime-watching public is getting from it. If you ask your random clueless person, anime and hentai are pretty much the same thing. I blame that misinformation partly on the prevalence of fanservice-y animes.

Yes, and I personally think that this misinformation hurts as much as it helps... if not hurts more than it helps. A lot of these people in the general public aren't necessarily against watching good stories presented in an animated medium... but they have no interest in what they would view as animated porn.

There's a potential untapped niche market here, I think. I'd love to see an animation studio try to take advantage of it.

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

I still don't understand why hating fan service scenes should be "immature". Most people would agree that they hate ad breaks on TV. It means that it is something they'd like to avoid but realistically can't.

That's a good analogy, I have to admit.

[FatalMemory]

The question isn't "Is the prevalence of fan-service in anime wrong?"
The OP is asking whether or not anime as a medium is being exploited in order to promote

fan-service, moe, lolicon, and sex fetishes!

I don't think fetishes are so simplistic, that they can be brought on by seeing an advertisement of a series that you'd never normally watch in the first place.
I generally find maid uniforms less appealing than whatever the characters normally wear, and I doubt this is going to change no matter how many shows about moe I watch.

I don't think any anime specifically promote fetishes.
They simply pander to people that have them.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Well, this red herring ruined the whole realism of the series. And what does "older people" means? Older than 12? Is the average anime fan 14 years old? In that sense all romances without mecha are for "mature" people.

For the purposes of this thread, the maturity of the show itself is nowhere near as important as the maturity of the target audience. Unless you are disputing the idea that the storage shed scene is too racy for the show's intended audience, discussion of Clannad's maturity level is straying pretty far off topic.

I'd be interested in knowing whether the OP thinks the scene in question needs to be relegated to OVAs and would also like to take this opportunity to remind her that advancing the discussion requires that you actually respond to your critics.