2013-02-18, 18:14 | Link #263 | |
On a mission
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That's just debating semantics. We're not talking about the literary term here which really wasn't even invoked, but the relative lack of quality of development aka "flatness". So while they are by definition not flat characters, it also has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
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2013-02-18, 18:32 | Link #264 |
Ass connoisseur
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Florida
Age: 37
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Yes, certain posters like to blame a characters lack of development on stolen or misplaced screen time, yet it is no ones fault but their own. If they were presented as interesting in the first place, they would have gotten the development they deserved. And they wouldn't have to worry about other, more interesting characters "stealing" the show. I prefer to call it "saving" the show, however...
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2013-02-18, 19:00 | Link #266 | |
Left for TFF
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After all, look at Hayate and how badly she was handled in StrikerS... Are you telling me that Hayate was never interesting? Granted, I blame the writing staff, but still...
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2013-02-18, 19:11 | Link #267 |
Manus ad Ferrum
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Costa Rica
Age: 33
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Nanya, really? Almost as bad as Akiyoshi? I take offense to that. But no, I don’t hate everything: why you think I dislike the mangas so much and yet I still bother? I like the first seasons. I like the movie, I like the movie manga, I like A’s Comics, I like even the games stories when I never had the chance to buy them, I even like characters from such games so no, I don’t hate everything. My problem is just that I care and so when I see something I like being poorly done like I think this is of course I will hate it. And complains we have for everything but the only reason why I insist is because I want this to get better. Just take it and not voice out what I see as bad stories is just not what I am willing to take as a fan. But most important of all things: I care about this franchise. Otherwise I will say “I hate this thing” and be done with it like I did with other things I also dislike a lot for my own reasons. You seem to think just because I don’t like how things are now I don’t like anything. Maybe I don’t like what you like, that seems to be the case.
And Kaijo, you miss the point back there with the Sound Stage X. I say I like some of it and as a matter of fact I did enjoy the first disc, most of it anyway. The introduction to this new plot was, while not the best out there, all things consider not that bad and Subaru’s development thanks to that death was neat to see. BUT then it comes down to what happens next. At no point I think Subaru does change as a result of the experience or that this pushes her to do anything she already will be willing to do. So yeah, nice moment but forget and never talk about again. Because Subaru’s has no real arc in Force I can’t tell her any different as the way she was in StrikerS and that really makes you realize the amount of impact this had on her. I know what a sound stage is, that is why I say this uses too much sound effects to fights we can’t see. Is like in a cartoon when they turn the lights and we just hear hits and screams. I have no idea who is doing what or what is going on. A sound stage should use more dialogue and by that I don’t mean rants like Runessa’s about the plot and more actual interaction which that thing could get right at times but not enough so we could care about the villain here. I think you miss the point also with Caro and Erio, they are just side characters to help Fate, a main character, so really when they no longer fit that role they should go like Nanoha’s family on Earth. In the end SSX didn’t had a real mystery. It had a poorly explain plot about a guy wanting to make robots to kill people because he was an asshole while a girl decide to help her because she was an idiot. At no point I can really force myself to like them or even getting start to understand their motives and ideas. I just see them wanting to cause destruction for the purpose of being jerks and serve as the antagonist of the story. Also I do say Hayate was never interesting to me.
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2013-02-18, 19:20 | Link #268 | |
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So what changed between A's and StrikerS? Why is the series twice as long yet Hayate cannot reserve 10 more minutes to shine? Was Fate so evil to not even waste 10 minutes of her time up? Why does the show insist on making Hayate look bad and not display at the very least more skills of being a leader, instead of just foisting her up there? IMO putting Hayate in command did her character a disservice. You could also ask Chrono too, since he effectively got kicked upstairs. And speaking of Chrono, he always had minimal screentime yet manages to come off as a badass and leader. But you know, from what I saw on screen, it was far easier to accept Chrono in the position he got himself into. So yea... it's not always about bulk in screentime. And really, Fate's development in StrikerS wasn't that impressive either. Ultimately, it's Nanoha that comes out the stronger.
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2013-02-18, 19:24 | Link #269 | |
Ass connoisseur
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Florida
Age: 37
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Also, Hayate should have never been a colonel. It just doesn't suit her.
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2013-02-18, 19:35 | Link #270 | |
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Every post I see of yours is complain, complain, complain. We've put up with Aki for over 2 years now BITCHING about Signum getting "worfed" in Force (with her ONLY FUCKING LOSS TO THAT POINT EVER), so you'll have to pardon me if I don't believe you.
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2013-02-18, 19:49 | Link #271 | |
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I'll say that, given Hayate's magical style and her relative lack of close range capability, she pretty much was only suited for command. If she had been given close range capability, added to her other strengths, fans would have screamed OP; she would have put Nanoha to shame. Given her power, it would be difficult to let her shine in a combat role, without stealing the show, so command it is. And I'm probably one of the few who did like her development in StrikerS. One of my fondest memories of her, is her confrontation with Auris, where we see exactly how much she's grown.
But what I think people wanted to see, was her in combat, kicking ass, which seems to be about the only metric some might judge a character. Quote:
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2013-02-18, 20:09 | Link #272 | ||
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I can accept Hayate curbstopping loads of opponents with her powers more than I can accept her in a command position. The personality just doesn't reflect it from what the anime shows. Quote:
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2013-02-18, 20:32 | Link #273 | |||
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Another thing to consider, is that Tsuzuki was going for world-building in StrikerS, and that means he needed to focus some on the politics and bureaucracy in command. And someone needed to lead RF6. Might as well have been Hayate. Again, I know people prefer action over seeing politics, generally, but I actually like seeing political ploys in action as well. Not too much, but just enough to make the overall plot more interesting. And I think Tsuzuki succeeded in this, with the way he set up the council, Jail, Regius, and their individual feelings. Quote:
But Arf, Chrono, Arisa, and Suzuka all suffered. It really feels like Shari's role could have been filled by Suzuka, and Arisa could have filled in for Alto, easily. Anyway, while I'd agree that the combat of Nanoha is one of the big reasons it became popular, I don't think making the series more well-rounded was a bad idea. In that well-rounding role, there is room for commanders and librarians. At least, there should be. And I don't see Nanoha or Fate as commander material, so that just leaves the third member of the trio. |
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2013-02-18, 20:49 | Link #274 | ||
Ass connoisseur
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Florida
Age: 37
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2013-02-18, 20:52 | Link #275 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Canada, Sault Ste. Marie
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I think most people had a problem with their execution of Hayate in StrikerS than the idea of it. A lot of commander characters in science fiction are popular enough - Bright Noa from Gundam, to name one. It just didn't work out.
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2013-02-18, 21:03 | Link #276 | |||
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If they made Hayate stronger, they'd have to invent reasons why she wasn't the one who went into the Cradle to destroy it. So, instead of Nanoha confronting Vivio, it would have been Hayate confronting Vivio. In order to keep Hayate outside, they needed to make her the commander. If Nanoha was the commander, she'd have to remain outside, and then you wouldn't have the Nanoha/Vivio scenes. We also have Nanoha blatantly rejecting command, despite being promoted a lot. She wants to continue to pass her way of magic off onto others, and remain on the front line, so she likes where she is. Quote:
So, in one respect, you are right: Tsuzuki is trying not to displease the fandom. It seems clear that he initially planned for Yuuno and Nanoha to grow closer together, but abandoned that after the Fate fans exploded, and wanted to push Fate and Nanoha together. He knows very well how fans would react. But he doesn't want to really outright put them together, either. So what we're gonna get, is what we're getting: Yuuno offscreen, and no outright confirmation of Nanoha/Fate in any fashion. That's the best you can do to please everyone, is to keep them all single. Again, I'd highly encourage you to read that Minami article I linked to in my last post, to begin to get an idea of the culture over there. |
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2013-02-18, 21:05 | Link #278 | |
The Unpronounceable
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Clock Tower
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So your saying that "he Numbers which didn't change one bit from one series to the other" is absolutely bull. Oh, and about you not hating the series? Could have fooled me, what with all the bitching and whining. |
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2013-02-18, 21:11 | Link #279 | |
Manus ad Ferrum
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Costa Rica
Age: 33
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Even so we know so little about them. You see flat also means characters that don't undergo substantial change. You see we barely saw those two do anything at first and then we see them barely do anything later. They really don't change as much as just fit the spot. And I a master of deceptions, so I did my job.
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2013-02-18, 21:11 | Link #280 | ||||||
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I understand that Hayate's long range wide support role is not as exciting, but I think it's fine for a bit more showing off, since I felt it was insufficient. Showing how someone has honed a technique and matured over the last 10 years speaks nice volumes for character development. But still, on a thematic level, I enjoy Nanoha's combat simply because the roles are like more in RPGs where people have unique abilities to add to the battle. It's not like DBZ where everyone just shoots larger light beams and only Goku means a damn. Well, at least the tail end of StrikerS had a multi-pronged affair where Hayate did something. Sorta. I liked it. Quote:
Though I understand that not all leaders have to fight. For example, Captain Picard was a great captain, but any attempts to put him in an action scene usually ended up awkward. In these cases it would be like developing a King as an opening in chess. Still, there's a certain type of strong personality a good leader brings out. And I'm just not sure whether or not to buy that from Hayate. Look at Lindy or Chrono in StrikerS, and it's easy to see why they are where they are, even if they don't ever lift a finger to attack anything. Quote:
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Yes, I'm aware that the fanbase is super ambivalent to actual relationships happening. But refusing to bite the bullet has definitely caused some internal bleeding too, as we have nothing now. It's fine for me, for I don't mind strong female leads never getting into a relationship and focusing on her carreer (Really, women aren't just bred for marriage ffs) but it can definitely hurt many others with diffrent preferences. Quote:
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