Psycho-Pass - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[Ultramarinus]

I missed the logic in that, she has already realized that this system is not fit for leading. Not to mention that her primary motivation that is ensuring the safety of Kougami requires for the system to disband as they just will not let them be especially after their secret is revealed. Akane is not portrayed that dumb to believe that. They also cannot run away if we are to believe Japan is that much isolated from the world.

[andyjay729]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Well, maybe Akane's just like Sybil describes her: weak. Too weak to even imagine a world without Sybil, even though she knows it's pretty much the representation of all evil.

Sybil lied to her though. When Touma revealed himself to Shougo you could tell the "system" has a megalomaniac desire to rule the world, while it showed itself as dispassionate and basically devoid of ego to Akane. Then again, even if Akane knew, I don't know if that would change her decision. Maybe she's just that weak.

Well, you couldn't really blame her having trouble visualizing a post-Sybil world, since people have become so dependant upon it. It's like how a junkie has to go onto methodone instead of just quitting cold turkey, lest they possibly die from the withdrawal. Or in a sociopolitical sense, think of Russia after the immediate collapse of Communism. At least the Allied occupiers helped Germany with the post-Nazi "detox", if you will; 20+ unassisted years later a lot of Russians seem to think that liberty, stability and security are mutually exclusive. So this anime may end with Sybil, but post-Sybil Japan's problems certainly won't.

I'm obviously not defending Sybil any more than I'm defending Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union, and I somewhat believe that Akane's just going with the flow for now before striking. But again, given how people have become mentally dependant upon this system, you can't quite blame her for having trouble imagining life without it. Think of North Korea and their people's worship of the Kim family.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

This episode pretty much proved everything I argued about the Sibyl as a collective.

How so?

Sibyl itself said that "In fact, there are many among us who acted far more cruelly than Makishima."

So yeah, much like what Roger Rambo and others argued, Sybil is basically a collective of sociopathic and psychopathic brains. That couldn't be more clear when even Sibyl itself basically admits to it.

But just because Sibyl states that them becoming a collective somehow creates as perfect a system as possible does not necessarily make it so.


In any event, this was a very intense episode. What I like about the final two episodes for this, is that it's pretty unpredictable. Will Makishima succeed? Will Kougami kill Makishima? Will Akane successfully capture Makishima and save Ko? Will Sibyl continue on, be reformed, or be outright destroyed?

There's real uncertainty attached to all of these questions, and the answer for each one will obviously tie into the answer to the others.

Right now, I'm leaning towards Makishima failing, and Akane successfully capturing Makishima and saving Ko. I lean that way because I think the narrative is kind of having Ko "pass the torch" to Akane; the narrative is shifting "her way", basically.

And yet, if this is the ending - Simply stopping a bio-terrorist and adding his brain into Sybil - There's a certain anti-climatic feel to it. It would perhaps be a bit underwhelming, especially compared to the ends of other anime shows wrote by Gen.

Hhmmm... So yeah, I like the unpredictability going into the concluding episodes.


Edit: In fairness to Akane, if she just starts blowing up Sibyl and killing all those brains, she creates a dangerous power vacuum. There would be anarchy and riots and dangerous uncertainty for the whole of Japan. Akane is Lawful Good, and here we see her "Lawful" side at war with her "Good" side. Sibyl is simultaneously intolerable and indispensable, a true paradox in Akane's mind. There's nothing more heart-wrenching to a Lawful Good person than being confronted with the realization that your society is ruled by Lawful Evil. This is because for the Lawful Good person, "lawful" and "good" naturally go hand-in-hand. It's the way the world is meant to be. And so dealing with highly unsavory but entrenched/established leadership is a decisively nasty business for a Lawful Good person. Especially when there's no clear alternative to turn to. Makishima's way likely brings nothing but pure anarchy, at least for a time. Honestly, if I was in Akane's shoes, I'd be very torn on what to do as well.

[Ultramarinus]

It is more likely to finish like Fight Club.

Belongs to the speculation thread, nvm.

[orion]

I think it will end with system remaining, Ko dead, Makishima escapes, and Akane becomes Chief's new assistant.

Loved Akane this episode. She took over Gino's role without a misstep.

[ars89]

So to a certain degree Akane agrees for the need over not having it. Really enjoyed her inner dialogue. Though its clear she doesn't agree with them 100%, but maybe she's working out a plan on how to fix it. Nice job by Akane to work out a deal to save Kogami. Now Ginoza even saw her as Kogami. Like how Kogami left his clue for team. Makishima's smile was great.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by orion

I think it will end with system remaining, Ko dead, Makishima escapes, and Akane becomes Chief's new assistant.

So... you think Gen is thinking "Sequel" here?

Because that ending would be so perfect for setting up a sequel.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by amaterasu4

CAUSE I FEEEEEELLL!!!

When I saw that smile I was waiting for him to sing "I feel pretty oh so pretty"


Ever since Akane bopped Makishima on the head, she has gotten more awesome. She better get a good ending. Anyways Akane seems to be the "Madoka" of this world so I definitely expect her to find a solution and it will be on her own, not one that sybil gives her.

[Ultramarinus]

Very much doubt that system will survive, since Makishima already succeeded in wrecking havoc to the food supply. Either foreign trade will dissolve the absolute authority of Sybil and isolation of Japan or they overplayed the food and trade thing to falsely lead us.

[4Tran]

Really Psycho-Pass? More Words Words Words? The Nth episode of endless talking in a row makes for a boring viewing experience. Yet another imaginary conversation with Makishima doesn't exactly help things either.

I do like how Akane is pulling a scam on the Sibyl System. Her new take-charge mode doesn't develop all that organically from the last couple of episodes, but I still like it so I'll take what I can get.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Right now, I'm leaning towards Makishima failing, and Akane successfully capturing Makishima and saving Ko. I lean that way because I think the narrative is kind of having Ko "pass the torch" to Akane; the narrative is shifting "her way", basically.

It's interesting to note that Kougami isn't even part of the main question of the show.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So... you think Gen is thinking "Sequel" here?

Because that ending would be so perfect for setting up a sequel.

This isn't the kind of show that can naturally transition to a sequel.

[BoyTitan]

Well lets face it it was all down hill once we found out what sybil was.

Omg everyone aside from akane is incompetent and can't do basic police work all of a sudden,yet before the enforcers were at least competent and the ones aside from Kogami. Akane is so bad ass ya no. The making gino picture kogami was extra weak.

More last minute we have to make Maki more evil and cruel even tho enjoying killing and killing just to kill goes against him. He didn't even offer the old dude a chance to side with him come on. His plan is so evil its just going to force sybil to trade and lead to the collapse of sybil. EVIL.

Sybil being a bunch of psychopaths brains is just meeh.

[Allium]

Originally Posted by viperdk1

Can't see your 'spoiler' happening, Allium - it wouldn't make any sense in the context of the 'conversations' she had with her friends, Kagari and Makishima. Her experiences in life (i.e. the system considering her to have talents for all aspects of life in this world) led her to make choices akin to a normal human life (reality) rather than being shepherded into a role by Sibyl - which, if you note, she seemed to prefer (rewatch the 'chat' with Kagari). She even asks Yuki in the final conversation as to whether she (Yuki) liked letting Sibyl run her life, or make those choices herself.

I was only imagining a 'Bad End' scenario where Akane ends up not having a choice. I was also thinking of discussion/speculation from the previous episode where some users were saying something similar; I'd feel a bit let-down if the show ended in that way. Anyway, the more I think about it, the more unlikely the 'becoming one of Sibyl's brains' outcome seems to be, whether it's Akane giving away hers or Kougami or anyone.

Originally Posted by BoyTitan

More last minute we have to make Maki more evil and cruel even tho enjoying killing and killing just to kill goes against him.

I don't remember any scene in which Maki doesn't enjoy killing. Whenever he does so, he seems almost gleeful.

[prototype_sky]

I'll be amazed if Kogami isn't in a hospital bed or dead when all is said and done.
I must say it is hard to predict how this will end but it would be an interesting ending if Shougo succeeds.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

How so?

Sibyl itself said that "In fact, there are many among us who acted far more cruelly than Makishima."

So yeah, much like what Roger Rambo and others argued, Sybil is basically a collective of sociopathic and psychopathic brains. That couldn't be more clear when even Sibyl itself basically admits to it.

But just because Sibyl states that them becoming a collective somehow creates as perfect a system as possible does not necessarily make it so.

No, Sibyl said there are some among them that acted more cruelly than Makishima, but it never said all. Sibyl just basically confirmed the idea of "perfection" through adding more and more unique individuals to the system. This can be a psychotic or sociopathic person, but more generally it's that all the individuals are unique and can expand the thought processes of the system.

Do you deny that the system achieves greater expansion of thought by adding those individuals it has trouble understanding?

This entire episode was the Sibyl System justifying its "perfection" and really, society at large has been peaceful. That point stands. The drawbacks of the system are not related to the order of society. It has always been about what Makishima and now Akane has confirmed this episode. Human beings having a choice, having free will is what they see as beautiful. It doesn't necessarily mean that society would have more order if people were given back free will. They just feel that life is better lived like that, and at least Gen has tried to sell the audience this idea.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

No, Sibyl said there are some among them that acted more cruelly than Makishima, but it never said all. Sibyl just basically confirmed the idea of "perfection" through adding more and more unique individuals to the system. This can be a psychotic or sociopathic person, but more generally it's that all the individuals are unique and can expand the thought processes of the system.

Akane, as the mouthpiece and point of view character, is telling us that the Sibyl System is full of crap. And she's on the verge of outright rejecting them.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Do you deny that the system achieves greater expansion of thought by adding those individuals it has trouble understanding?

I would. They couldn't figure out Makishima even though Akane has no problems doing so.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

This entire episode was the Sibyl System justifying its "perfection" and really, society at large has been peaceful. That point stands. The drawbacks of the system are not related to the order of society. It has always been about what Makishima and now Akane has confirmed this episode.

All of the Words Words Words in this episode are about the Sibyl System, not Makishima.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Really Psycho-Pass? More Words Words Words? The Nth episode of endless talking in a row makes for a boring viewing experience. Yet another imaginary conversation with Makishima doesn't exactly help things either.

I honestly liked the various imaginary conversations. I'll grant you that it's a little bit cliche, but I felt it was a reasonably effective way of exploring Akane's psyche, and her internal conflict over what Sybil has posed to her. It also gives us the closest thing that we're probably going to get to a meaningful philosophical discussion/debate between Akane (the main protagonist) and Makishima (the main antagonist). I'd prefer "the real thing", but I doubt Makishima will be in the mood for much philosophizing while he's busy trying to destroy Sibyl Japan's food supply.

That being said, the various issues surrounding Sibyl and the major characters of Psycho-Pass have been thoroughly "talked out", and now it's time for decisive action. The setup has been made, the pros and cons have been weighed, and now I want to see what Akane chooses to do.

I do like how Akane is pulling a scam on the Sibyl System. Her new take-charge mode doesn't develop all that organically from the last couple of episodes, but I still like it so I'll take what I can get.

I don't know. Akane goes from knocking out Makishima and choosing to spare him in spite of Kougami's wishes, to saving Kougami in spite of Sybil's wishes, to what she's done this episode. I see some consistent "taking charge" there. I see a gradual progression to Akane becoming increasingly independent, thoughtful, reflective, honest with herself, and decisive. She's come a long way from where she was when Makishima killed her friend.


I especially like how her reasoning skills are becoming a lot like Kougami's. There's something poetic about the protege becoming more like her mentor even as she hunts him down.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Akane, as the mouthpiece and point of view character, is telling us that the Sibyl System is full of crap. And she's on the verge of outright rejecting them.

What I saw is Akane coming to an understanding with herself, what she wants right now, and how she feels about Sibyl. That being, she agrees with Makishima's perspective on free will.

If there is a reason Akane is angry at Sibyl, besides of course the murder of Kagari, it's the same reason Makishima is. It's because of all the things that Kogami showed her and talked about.

Again though, this has little to do with order of society. Sibyl has maintained a peaceful society until Makishima threatened it. There is a reason Akane did not immediately go "fuck you" to the system and help destroy it.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I would. They couldn't figure out Makishima even though Akane has no problems doing so.

Because he's a unique individual. Like they said, any system will have its bugs and it is impossible to compensate for all of them. That's why they see him as valuable, so they can get closer to perfection.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

All of the Words Words Words in this episode are about the Sibyl System, not Makishima.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here, or how this is a rebuttal to anything, if at all.

[Roger Rambo]

HOLY SHIT!

Akane has fully evolved!




Also. Oh wow. It turns out the Sybil system actually IS composed of asymptomatic mass murderers. Some of them even worse than Makishima! Who'd have guessed?


Fucking cocky bastards don't even try to sugar coat it from Akane. They're literally like "yeah, you wanna destroy us. But you're too moral of a person to ignore the wide scale misery that destroying us would cause."

[creb]

The Sybil system actually did a surprising good job of explaining itself, and I largely side with Reckoner's interpretation of it. Just because individual parts of a system were "evil", doesn't make the whole "evil", and I agree that if you're going to work on the type of scale that Sybil does, the first thing you need to do is get over the hangup over "good" and "bad", and concentrate on the best outcome for the most people.

I suspect I'd agree to work with it as well, though I'm not sure Akane is 100% sincere when she said she'd team up with it (on the other hand, she did utter the words "It's a promise", which for a character like her has a lot of implied weight to them).

That said, I think the odds are very good that Gen is holding out on us, the viewers, with an even "better" system, because...he's Gen.

Whether that comes by getting rid of the Sybil system, or by modifying it in some way (the system itself seemed to indicate it couldn't continue with the status quo anymore), society will be different when the end credits roll.

The question is how radical. I suspect that while Sybil has every intention of keeping its word concerning Kougami, I don't think Kougami is going to play nice, and he will likely force Sybil to break its word, which in turn gives a plot device for Akane to take action at the climax to be the vehicle for Gen's brilliant idea of what to replace Sybil with, for better or worse.

[Triple_R]

Well, in fairness to Reckoner, I do think that the narrative is posing the question of what's the right balance between "order" and "chaos". Sibyl represents one extreme, Makishima the other. Will Akane be able to find a happy medium? I think that Akane's heart is more with Makishima, but her head is more with Sibyl. In other words, I think that Akane perceives a disturbingly inescapable logic to at least some of what Sibyl said, and that compels her to leave the system as is even as she hates it. But there's also certain emotional truths that Makishima speaks to, and Akane is cognizant of their importance as well.

It's a great internal conflict for Akane, really.

Originally Posted by creb

The Sybil system actually did a surprising good job of explaining itself, and I largely side with Reckoner's interpretation of it. Just because individual parts of a system were "evil", doesn't make the whole "evil", and I agree that if you're going to work on the type of scale that Sybil does, the first thing you need to do is get over the hangup over "good" and "bad", and concentrate on the best outcome for the most people.

Moral considerations are not "hangups". They're legitimate concerns tied to important concepts like fairness and justice. They're also tied to basic human empathy.

"Scale" does not lessen their importance. If anything, it heightens their importance. A bad place of work (like, say, the one in Episode 3) is a moderate problem. A bad national government is a severe problem.

A system does not need to be ruthlessly utilitarian in order to be a good system.