[Manga] Kawarimi issue

[Suna no tate]

bit of an odd question but ok... Pain does kawarimi (aka Body replacement jutsu)to escape jiraiya's hair jutsu. He replaces himself with a log... After thinking about it over a week, Jiraiya is puzzled with the same question I am. He cleverly asks himself:




Ok. How come kawarimi is always a log? I mean has it ever been done without a log? Its ok if its genin fighting in a forest, but pein and jiraiya are fighting in what seems like a fairly urban environment. There are no logs there. What gives?

Well lets take a look at where they were fighting. To my knowledge, kawarimi takes an object in the environment and substitutes it with the users body. So lets see if there are any stray logs lying around. We shall refer to some shots of the battle scene; perhaps our mysterious cache of logs will surface

Shot 1:


Hmm... no logs there. Seems pretty modern to me

Shot 2:


Hmm... still not seeing any logs lying around. Just your run of the mill town/city log free and all. BTW, thats jiraiya and Pain talking in shot 2.

So what gives? Where are all the logs coming from cause I've seen plenty of kawarimi's with logs in this series and not all the times used have they been fighting in a forest...

[rasudoken]

maybe a log teleported to him? maybe it was in his inventory

Spoiler for big object to small object:

(in most anime, big objects are hidden in small pockets or small things.)

don't know if that is a spoiler or not, anyways, jiraiya probably wouldn't care because the objective to to defeat pein.

[Sabaku Kyu]

kawarimi never made that much sense, it's mostly just plot device. When Kakashi first explained it, he said that a shinobi replaces himself with something in their environment but it's possible that a shinobi carries an object on hand like rasudoken explained, in a scroll or something like that.

The default object seems to be a log when nothing else is suitable, but it's not always a log, there's been mud, clay and bug kawarimi. And Kakashi once used one of Naruto's own clones as one.

[Sakuranbo]

Originally Posted by rasudoken

maybe a log teleported to him? maybe it was in his inventory

Spoiler for big object to small object:

(in most anime, big objects are hidden in small pockets or small things.)

don't know if that is a spoiler or not, anyways, jiraiya probably wouldn't care because the objective to to defeat pein.

Yes! Pein has a pile of logs hidden under that Akatsuki cloak of his.

[amOKchen]

In the Zabuza and Haku act, Naruto finds a white rabit. Kakashi concludes it is probably to be used as a kawarimi, and stays on guard.

[tatami]

easy answer:

its so damn funny when its done with a log.

[Hunter]

Pretty much what Sabaku Kyu said. The log is a traditional ninja thing, no much logic behind it.

[Suna no tate]

Oh I know.

I just thought it was silly in this case cause its not that hard to have pein use a bunshin or something else that makes sense (ie replace himself with the girl konan as punishment for her failure). But no, god level ninja Pain uses a log out of nowhere...what?!

[Hunter]

Well in this case it's a ninja village so they are bound to have entire warehouses full of logs.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Nice question but it's in my eyes the same as:
- How can Sandaime spit fire (at Oro for so long) without alcohol and tons of gas?

[tatami]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Nice question but it's in my eyes the same as:
- How can Sandaime spit fire (at Oro for so long) without alcohol and tons of gas?

same as how all fire jutsus made...thats not the same issue...how does itachi make his fire ball? same...n_n

[Luminion Lancer]

-Well nobody ever said anything about the actual range of the jutsu either, right? Besides even if this is a modern city I would still imagine that there are trees growing around and being cut down to make these logs. I figure why bother looking for an explaination since we already have the result?

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by tatami

same as how all fire jutsus made...thats not the same issue...how does itachi make his fire ball? same...n_n

I was giving an example! Yo$ %$%@#$$ (coded flame language!)

[Irkalla]

Maybe narutoverse ninjas have logs sealed on scrolls, so they are always at hand. Could be, ne? >_<

[0TaKu0]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

I mean has it ever been done without a log?

Aside from what Sabaku Kyu already stated, which my answer would have been alike. I remember Jiraiya used Kawarimi on Naruto a couple of times during the time he was trying to capture him for training, and it was a Tanuki doll (I'm think that was anime filler, I could be wrong.). However, aside from it being a Plot Device if you asked me its a huge Plot Hole only because Kawarimi seems to be some ultimate jutsu that if dome correctly at the right time it can escape anything, which is obviously the same reason why you don’t see it often because it would make people question things like "What happened to Sandaime's crystal ball!", in terms of why doesn't people use Kawarimi all the fucking time, I guess one explination could be, you do carry the replacement on your person which is why its a limited jutsu, Hehe.

[Ryanthedarkhearted1]

I got one, why does curse seal level two always make Sasuke look like a girl?

[tatami]

cuz deep inside he is a girl

[Suna no tate]

I agree with otakuo. Kawarimi seems to be too easy an escape. I mean how many times was kawarimi done in the zabuza v kakashi fight alone. Seems you can switch yourself with just about anything and anytime with little chakra cost. I think kishi needs to clarify some rules or needs to show kawarimi failing at least once.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by 0TaKu0

However, aside from it being a Plot Device if you asked me its a huge Plot Hole only because Kawarimi seems to be some ultimate jutsu that if dome correctly at the right time it can escape anything.

The key words here:done correctly. That is what keeps kawarimi from being a plot hole, because there are rules to it. I think what's supposed to be implied is that kawarimi requires keen awareness and timing to set up. It's not supposed to be an "escape trick" which saves you from being hit by attacks. It's a counter which causes the opponent to momentarily drop their defenses because they think they've landed a hit

Like during the first bell test. It seemed like Kakashi was caught off-guard by Sasuke, and then used kawarimi to save himself. But he was never off-guard in the first place. He knew the attack was coming and timed the kawarimi accordingly to draw out Sasuke from hiding. Compare that to the time when he was caught and pinned by Kakuzu. In that situation, Kakashi was truely taken by surprise and couldn't save himself with a kawarimi. So the limit to kawarimi is that it is harder to use it against more skilled opponents, who are less likely to fall for the trick and whose attacks aren't as predictable.

Where the cheapness comes in is that there is no way for the readers to know when a character is actually "trapped" or when they have set up kawarimi. That is why it is a plot device.

[0TaKu0]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

The key words here:done correctly

Trust me when I say that the thought ran through my mind, and everything you typed up I had already speculated beforehand. However, the only problem is, which is also the reason I didn’t bother to type it all down is because, neither you or I know the mechanics of the jutsu. For all we know for a Kawarimi to work it needs to be setup way beforehand, not after your caught. It is as you said "He was never off-guard in the first place". Yes, Kakashi knew it was coming and I also believe the Kawarimi is that sort of jutsu which needs to be setup LONG before everything that takes place afterwards.

However, once again the reason I didn’t bother with it is, there is no real proof of what we both are speculating, or explanation from Kishimoto, "Where the cheapness comes in is that there is no way for the readers to know when a character is actually "trapped" or when they have set up kawarimi. That is why it is a plot device." However, the same logic could be applied and said "There is no way for the readers to know that Kakashi was NOT caught off guard, and the Kawarimi really IS meant to be a "escape trick" that is done there and then." While of course do not get me wrong, I do not agree with this, and most definitely agree with you in terms of how it could work we will never truly know what was Kishimoto's original intentions were / are for the Kawarimi. I mean sure if we knew Kishimoto personally we would ask him, and point this out and, most likely his advisors / team has already pointed this out to Kishimoto but regardless, we would know the original idea / intention and, basis of Kawarimi from Kishimoto, wither he originally meant for it to be a "escape trick" jutsu or, it was always meant to be what we speculated.

None the less, because there is no real proof all we can do is speculate and it goes both ways, plot device if it needs to be done correctly, before hand, never being caught off guard in the first place. Also plot hole if it is just a "escape trick" insta-jutsu done there and then.