Hanasaku Iroha (generic discussion thread)

[Suzuku]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

Please enlighten me on my mistakes, because those are what I found in a quick research on ANN in order to counter prior argument and I never had problem shown to be wrong.

1. Using ANN to support your claims about what shows sale. ANN does not post numbers or volumes beyond the 20th rank, which skews a person's sense of what sales and what doesn't, and how often a show ranks after the opening week.

2. Obviously there will be more Fall shows ranking because for one, there were more shows in the Fall than there were in Winter or Summer; and two, most shows that aired during the Summer have released all their volumes.

BTW, no offense, but I think I do know a little bit more than your average "majority on this forum" on what the hell I'm talking about especially on reactions in East considering my Asian descent and the fact that I spend more time on 2ch, Jojo, and other Asian forums then I do in English forum and that I fly back to Taiwan and Japan to attend expos every year...

I was not specifically referring to you, I merely picked out that one quote from your post because I always laugh when people use ANN's sales postings since they are very lacking. You should use the actual numbers and full rankings posted on livedoor. Although I do take issue with your post where you're pointing out the supposedly well received anime. Rather than going by what's received well on its 2ch thread I go by sales, and in that regard several of the anime you posted should not be considered well received. That said, Steins;Gate and to a certain extent Index II are special cases.

[Undertaker]

Originally Posted by Suzuku

1. Using ANN to support your claims about what shows sale. ANN does not post numbers or volumes beyond the 20th rank, which skews a person's sense of what sales and what doesn't, and how often a show ranks after the opening week.

If you would post this in the beginning, I won't having that big a problem. because since that 's just difference of opinion.


Its true that compare to manga, ANN's anime DVD/BD doesn't always have the complete sales number, but it was irrelevant to the argument I was in.

The point I was trying to counter was that someone started by claiming HanaIro is one the the more lacking series in this season and that the only reason Oreimo was a hit is because that the Fall 2010 is one of the worst season in recent memory.

Then he/she went ahead and uses preorder sales ranking to claim that Steins Gate is the superior (best) series this season and that HanaIro is just mediocore all the while implied that Fall 2010 season is failure both critically and commercially.

Someone then pointed out that Steins Gate was actually voted as one of the most disappointing series this season to counter the point.

So to support that I used fire against fire. I went the ANN and look at top ten ranking (for past THREE MONTH, to avoid the first week effect that you mentioned) and found there are more Fall 2010 series on top ten in general. All I need to show was that there are more successful series in Fall 2010 than he claims. The actually sales number won't really matter since I'm not comparing popularity of specific series, but rather the season as whole.

Originally Posted by Suzuku

2. Obviously there will be more Fall shows ranking because for one, there were more shows in the Fall than there were in Winter or Summer; and two, most shows that aired during the Summer have released all their volumes.

I'll have to refute that point a bit, the anime slots were predetermined, as such there are just as many new series in Summer, Winter as Fall or even Spring. The only exception are 2-cour series like Gosick or Index that runs two season instead one, but those usually balances each other out and usually no more than 2-3 a season. For example Fall 2010 has Index, Bakuman, SRW, and Star Driver as 2 cour series, but balanced out with Amaigami SS, Legend of Lengendary Heroes from Summer 2010 that will free up slot for Spring season.

The reason it seem that Spring and Summer didn't have as many new series was precisely that there are less interesting or noticeable 1-cour series and that's easy to figure out just by looking at out many time a series appears in sales ranking (perferbably top ten) through out a extended period of time. WHich is what I did.

Originally Posted by Suzuku

1
I was not specifically referring to you, I merely picked out that one quote from your post because I always laugh when people use ANN's sales postings since they are very lacking. You should use the actual numbers and full rankings posted on livedoor. Although I do take issue with your post where you're pointing out the supposedly well received anime. Rather than going by what's received well on its 2ch thread I go by sales, and in that regard several of the anime you posted should not be considered well received. That said, Steins;Gate and to a certain extent Index II are special cases.

Not a biggie, again, as long as you state your reason I don't mind getting criticized, I just have problem getting criticized when I don't even know why.

I've already state the reason why I used ANN and why I didn't use a more comprehensive sales number, because the point I was trying to make was not the sales number itself but rather, the number of titles on ranking.

It's fine if you are using sales number, and if that's the case than yes, Oreimo, Index, and Star Driver might be the only true hits in Fall 2010 and compare to that Winter 2011 (using this for example) has Madoka and IS. But that only tells you part of the story. The sales number only shows which series is more popular compares to another but it does not tell you how successful a season is as a whole.

Madoka and IS can sell as many as it want, but if no other series from Winter 2011 is selling in top ten, than to me that is still a weaker season when you compare to Fall 2010 season when there are 4-5 series in addition to Oreimo, Index and Star Driver that regularly make appearances in top ten.

The regular viewers are not going watch mid-night anime or series that are on ATX and those are usually the series that defines a season since series in those time slots are targeting true ACG fans. Just becasue anime and manga is popular in Japan, that doesn't mean everyone that reads One Piece or FMA are otaku. Or that regular anime fan are also H-game enthusiasts that can't wait for the adaption of series like Shuffle, Yosuga no Sora, Fate/Stay, Fortune Arterial, etc.

In these cases forums are the best place to determine the actual critical response. The reason Index series sells well despite less-than stellar critical response was because the anime actually introduces many new readers to the LN and vice versa creating an effect similar to Steins Gate where regular viewer finds the work satisfactory but fans of series finds the adaption lacking but will still purchase DVD/BD because they are fans.


But enough of this, let's just get back on HanaIro and how much most viewers are enjoying it.

[Pellissier]

Originally Posted by Suzuku

I think it would be best to just keep the discussion to Iroha.

Originally Posted by Undertaker

But enough of this, let's just get back on HanaIro and how much most viewers are enjoying it.

Agreed, the current discussion is off topic even here in the generic discussion thread. Further posts about sales of other anime or any other subject unrelated to Hanasaku Iroha will be deleted. Feel free to go ahead in PMs.

---

And also:

Copy/paste of a post made in the episode 9 thread, replies are below.

Originally Posted by Pellissier

Sorry, but shipping wars or shipping bets are not welcome here (other than off topic). I've let you guys go ahead for a bit to see if it would stop alone, but here we were starting to have more posts about the "shipping wars" than about the episode.

As a result, some posts have been deleted. I can't even readdress you to a different thread, because shipping wars are not allowed since quite a while. In the beginning they may be funny for its participants, but in the long run they're bound to becoming rage generators and possibly flame territories.

And then, there's the True Tears matter.

Aside from my stance on it (I don't see that many similarities between TT and HanaIro, saving Tooru who looks like Jun, Mari Okada and P.A. Works), the problem here is that we're having a posts overflow about True Tears (and other series for that matter), not only in this thread, but in this subforum in general. Not a good sign or a good trend, because, see the Tooru thread, what has the last page of posts to do with the thread's subject? Answer: zero.

Is this perhaps due to the fact that since HanaIro doesn't have an original source to make comparison with, it is compared to other series instead? And do people feel such an urge to compare it with other series? (because for example, I don't). Please don't answer, those were open questions. I'll need to give it some thoughts.

[cheesie]

Originally Posted by Pellissier

As a result, some posts have been deleted. I can't even readdress you to a different thread, because shipping wars are not allowed since quite a while. In the beginning they may be funny for its participants, but in the long run they're bound to becoming rage generators and possibly flame territories.

Those posts are the furthest things from what "ship wars" are, Pellissier. However, seeing that romance/shipping topics have been brewing more as of late, after all, perhaps you can create a Romance thread, much like other sub-forums, where posters can discuss about this topic freely as they wish without the risk of derailing threads, and at the same time, contribute more thoughts that will certainly be worth reading.

[risingstar3110]

So yeah naval battle is bad, we have to stop it.

It was all because of the True Tears fan made up a ruckus and set up the bad example for the mod....

*i swear i didn't realise that we caused this much trouble back in TT!! *

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Pellissier

Sorry, but shipping wars or shipping bets are not welcome here (other than off topic). I've let you guys go ahead for a bit to see if it would stop alone, but here we were starting to have more posts about the "shipping wars" than about the episode.

As a result, some posts have been deleted. I can't even readdress you to a different thread, because shipping wars are not allowed since quite a while. In the beginning they may be funny for its participants, but in the long run they're bound to becoming rage generators and possibly flame territories.

Considered PMing you but I figured the answer to my question would interest others as well so I'll just ask here:

Does this mean that in the "spoiler and speculation" thread we're not allowed to speculate on which character will end up together?

[Pellissier]

Originally Posted by cheesie

Those posts are the furthest things from what "ship wars" are, Pellissier. However, seeing that romance/shipping topics have been brewing more as of late, after all, perhaps you can create a Romance thread, much like other sub-forums, where posters can discuss about this topic freely as they wish without the risk of derailing threads, and at the same time, contribute more thoughts that will certainly be worth reading.

Heh, I know that as of now they're all fluffy and friendly, they start like this after all. The troubles will come later. Which is the reason why we don't create "Romance threads" anymore, those are shipping wars generators, and shipping wars are extremely bad for the reason I've already mentioned. Some people become really fierce about them and create an unsustainable atmosphere for the others. Sadly that's how it goes. In light of this, the only way to prevent that from happening, is to forbid shipping wars before they even start.

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

So yeah naval battle is bad, we have to stop it.

It was all because of the True Tears fan made up a ruckus and set up the bad example for the mod....

*i swear i didn't realise that we caused this much trouble back in TT!! *

I was also moderating the True Tears subforum and I don't remember giant troubles. One thing I do remember though, is how strong were (and still are) the Noe faction and the Hiromi faction. More or less like I'm figuring the Kou faction and the Tooru faction will become if things go in a certain way. However, in True Tears a battleground (read: dedicated thread for that) was not provided so the collisions were kept to a minimum level, and I mean to do the same here in HanaIro.

Originally Posted by totoum

Considered PMing you but I figured the answer to my question would interest others as well so I'll just ask here:

Does this mean that in the "spoiler and speculation" thread we're not allowed to speculate on which character will end up together?

It's very important to separate the two concepts.

What is not allowed is blatantly shipping characters or favourite pairings, pick on other members because they prefer other characters/pairings, posting in a provocative, spiteful manner because of different views, generate a lot of pointless one liners just to "ship" the favourite character or make "hate/must die" posts about the rival. That's the gist of it (since all of said behaviours can be translated as flaming or baiting).

Speculating on pairings in the speculations thread is perfectly fine, as long as the tone of the posts remains thoughtful, polished and polite. In short, be yourself even when talking of those subjects, don't let the fanboy/fangirl that's inside you usurp your place!

[Guardian Enzo]

This seems like an almost impossible distinction to navigate, Pellissier, and I'm certainly glad I'm not the one who has to police it. If I can oversimplify some of what you said - would the following statement effectively be true:

It's OK to say "I think Ohana will end up with Kou because..." It's not OK to say "I think Ohana should end up with Kou because..."

I was certainly a regular on the TT boards (and had my own rooting interest, as we all did) and I remember things being generally pretty civil over there. But there was certainly plenty of discussion of who Good Boy would end up with, and why and how. The problem I see is that this topic is highly relevant to series discussion and I hate to see posts censored as "shipping wars" as long as they're civil and respectful.

Again, I've already stated I think this series is very different than TT in that it's a personal growth story, not a hard-core romance, so some of this may end up being a non-factor that looks worse than it is because we just finished a particularly incendiary ep...

[Pellissier]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

This seems like an almost impossible distinction to navigate, Pellissier, and I'm certainly glad I'm not the one who has to police it. If I can oversimplify some of what you said - would the following statement effectively be true:

It's OK to say "I think Ohana will end up with Kou because..." It's not OK to say "I think Ohana should end up with Kou because..."

No, I think you're bringing the distinction to an extreme I wasn't meaning.

I don't watch the form, but rather the attitude. If it's civil and respectful - using your words - that's ok.

The posts were deleted from the episode 9 thread because, even recognizing their cheerful nature, they were tragically off topic and were derailing the thread too much. In addition there were a lot of liners (or even half-liners) that don't add much to a discussion.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

But there was certainly plenty of discussion of who Good Boy would end up with, and why and how. The problem I see is that this topic is highly relevant to series discussion and I hate to see posts censored as "shipping wars" as long as they're civil and respectful.

Naturally, didn't I mention that I want to bring the same approach used in True Tears here in HanaIro? And by nature, I've never been a censor to begin with.

The problem I see is that this topic is highly relevant to series discussion and I hate to see posts censored as "shipping wars" as long as they're civil and respectful.

I perfectly agree with you. Though, may I add an adjective to your last sentence? "Constructive". Posts inserted in a discussion shall help said discussion, not dilute it (that's what one liners do). Occasional waves of pointless/nearly pointless posts must be the exception and not the rule.

Again, I've already stated I think this series is very different than TT in that it's a personal growth story, not a hard-core romance, so some of this may end up being a non-factor that looks worse than it is because we just finished a particularly incendiary ep...

Indeed, in True Tears the romance was the main focus, almost the only focus. In HanaIro it seems that it will be just one of the presented paths.

[shishio]

Originally Posted by shishio

Well, I guess I'll try a few episodes first

Hmmm... watched till episode two. Looking good so far. i guess, I will play catch up for now

[Malkuth]

I find it amazing that 9 episodes into the show there has been almost no character development :/

[Sugarless Ocean]

Hasn't Ohana developed a lot since the beginning of the show? She's become reliable and more considerate than before.

[.x.crii.x.]

I'm with you on realiable...considerate, not so much. xD;;

[Sugarless Ocean]

Lol okay. She's considerate to the customers, like that old lady in episode 9. Not sure if that counts though. xD

[Kagayaki]

Originally Posted by Sugarless Ocean

Hasn't Ohana developed a lot since the beginning of the show? She's become reliable and more considerate than before.

Yeah, at the beginning, every time Ohana did something impulsively, I facepalmed. But now in ep9 we have both Ko and Tooru telling her that if she did something thinking it was for the best, then it was a good thing.

First, I thought it was ironic that they both told her the same thing. (Hence Ohana's "Where have I heard that before?".) Second, there's even more irony because they obviously didn't watch the same first few episodes that the viewers did, where everything Ohana did was well intentioned but disastrous.

A nice touch by the writer.

[blakstealth]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

I find it amazing that 9 episodes into the show there has been almost no character development :/

It has 26 episodes. We're bound to see some soon.

[BladeEntity]

... wow 26 episodes that's a long ride, honestly that's more than enough to have proper development between Tooru and Ohana but also enough for something to happen between Ko and Ohana. Personally rather than Ko win but there is still too much to tell.

[blakstealth]

Ko? Eh, I don't really care for that guy atm lol.

Pretty interesting read.

[mols]

Funny how Ohana's mother thinks only her job was "bad". She has been doing a terrible job as a mother all this time. Ohana could have replied she hoped her job was good and important because other wise what's the point?

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by blakstealth

Ko? Eh, I don't really care for that guy atm lol.

Pretty interesting read.

...dude. This has potential for SUCH meta crap. Like. A fanfic where the area suddenlly receives a spike of popularity due to some hot springs anime being made about the area!