Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Discussion / Poll

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by ars89

Didn't expect Kyubey to hurt Sayaka, at least we finally get to see his dark side.

You just reminded me. In that scene, he looked like a cat playing with a mouse. If you have seen the way a cat does things with a mouse, you'll understand

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by applejuice

lol

I'm seeing irony here because I saw someone who's complaining this episode for 'EXACTLY OPPOSITE REASON' which was about slow pacing and plot flow.

What's so big deal about sudden revelation being 'sudden'?...

Yeah, I don't get it either... I'm reminded of the way everyone responded to the plot twist in Myself;Yourself 11. Is there something inherently wrong with things coming up without being foreshadowed (Well, Mentar pointed out that there was foreshadowing - I never noticed because I'm dumb and unobservant - but for the sake of argument assuming there wasn't any)?

Honestly, this particular twist resonates nicely for me because I think it's very true to life. There have been times where I've learned that someone I know likes another person that I know, and I felt completely blindsided because I never would have expected the relationship to be anything but platonic. In some cases it's just been outright fucking random, like the time this one girl turned out to be madly, yandereishly in love with someone I thought she was barely even friends with, with a guy I couldn't possibly see how they might have any chemistry together. Hitomi stating that she liked Kamijou reminded me of those times, the 'Holy shit' feeling of learning about those deeper feelings that lurk under the surface. I liked it. (And I can actually see why Hitomi would feel that way and think she'd make a good match with Kamijou, unlike the real life instance I just mentioned.)

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Young girls fighting monsters who are preying on humans. Where have I seen this before? Yes, it's not exact, but it is very close. We don't know what witches are, so that hurts it, and perhaps would help. If it was somehow hinted that witches weren't the bad thing we thought they were, then it would be more interesting to me.

...Taking the a single point of a series arguably doesn't define it. Or else, I can simply consider all gundam series the same because they have "gundams" "saving" "colonies" which would definitely attract the rage of purists. Likewise, I don't think people would agree to put all mecha type together, especially with antipodes like Evangelion, Gundam and Code Geass, sharing few "elements" but arguably drastically different.
Therefore, stopping yourself on a single description line, where how the characters are played and the actual consequences matter the most, doesn't exactly ring me as a very good statement.

This is exemplified in Kyoko. Sure, she had a bad past, but she enjoys her powers and the present. If someone is enjoying the powers, then it's not really a "Suck" situation.

That's fallacy. You just cannot take someone else experiencing the same, but reacting differently and conclude "the situation doesn't suck" (be it in general or by that trope definition).
A situation is deemed X or Y, depending of the person affected by it. Otherwise, should a person A consider themselves "lucky" to earn xxxx$ per month, because a person B consider that lucky, because they earn a lower wage?

The fact Kyoko settled her mind doesn't make Sayaka's situation any less reasonable that it is. It may work for Kyoko, but that doesn't mean other girls would accept it readily like that.

Which is all in her mind. To misquote the bard again: "Has she not human eyes and ears? When you prick her, does she not bleed?"

We have many stories of people where their spirits disconnect from their bodies, or say someone becomes a ghost. Are they any less human, if they still possess human thoughts and feelings? You're right that I'm looking at it in a coldly logical way (which I've stressed over and over). Because emotions are just in the mind, and each of us decides what we want to be, and what we want to think of ourselves.

Except we also have a lot of examples defining a sheer difficulty for a character to accept that. It seems rather unreasonable to use outside example, and paste the situation over them.
It just doesn't work like that.

I'd argue that's in the mind. We humans can convince ourselves of anything if we want, and live just fine. What kind of life you have and lead, is totally up to you. It is up to you to come to terms with who you are. No one else can do that for you.

I'm reminded of the Doctor from Star Trek: Voyager, and how he became human. And one episode in particular, where he had a breakdown because he saved one patient and not another. They deleted his memory, but later were convinced to let him sit in the holosuite and work through it. He seemed very much a sentient creature to me, despite a lack of a flesh and blood body.

Exactly, so why are you actually defining Sayaka like that, whereas the character obviously doesn't share the same point of view?
It is actually the same basis: an individual will think of a given situation this way, while another may think otherwise. It is all dependant of their circumstances, backstory, personality and whatnot.
In the case of Sayaka, for now, she is unable to cope with it, and I see no reason for it be unreasonable: she learns her existence isn't like it was before, and basically sees her different, not human.

Because as I quoted, I see this as the very definition of the trope. The powers are awesome, and I've stated before that practically everyone here would have wanted them, or at least visualized themselves as heroes gaining power to fight bad things. They never saw such powers as a bad thing.

Just like with Setsuna, who thought her wings made her ugly and inhuman, when really most people would love to have such wings.

Powers do not equal to what difference it leads to.
Do you really think powers are actually the issue here? Why would Sayaka turn quite excited when she is having her first sortie against a witch? That is really not the issue.
The sole issue is that -she does not see her human any longer-. Period.
You may say that it is awesome, but I personally disagree: I can't imagine how awesome it is to be in some sort of avatar instead of being actually yourself.

As for Setsuna, what she says is a exclamation of her fear of rejection, because she isn't human. The fact she has powers isn't the issue, but the wings are a proof she isn't "human", which is the true issue. And as shown afterwards, she learns that people do not care that much if she is human or not, clearing her fears and mind.

That doesn't make the character wrong by any means: it is something that is perfectly reasonable for people who fear rejection and the likes, and I see no reason to think that it is a stretch that someone can't see themselves as human as their peers.

And as I said, that's in her mind. Biologically speaking, not much has changed. Just the way she thinks about herself. That's for her to work out, and maybe it convinces you that this is bad, but it doesn't for me, which is the only main point I was making: I am not convinced.

I'm sorry, but she is definitely not the same biologically: Biologically speaking, a body cannot regenerate and so forth. You may say it is a semantic play, but that's the truth: she is not a human being, and the body itself is also attesting it.

That's actually why I think you are simply looking at the practical aspect of the situation, whereas the important factor is how a character is responding to it.

Then the logical conclusion you come to, is that there are people who look human, but can be sub-human or non-human to you. That's a dangerous slippery slope to go down. I suppose that's why I stick to a more logical standpoint.

Do not put words in my mouth, I never stated it is a thesis or a fact, I'm actually explaining what people could have felt, which are illustrations/examples. While I do not agree that a scar will turn someone less than human, some people will actually think so, and I can attest such occurences aren't so rare in reality (auto mutilation and so forth in psychiatric ward, burned people in an intensive care ward etc).

Turning everything on logic and practical aspect just doesn't cut it when we are dealing with a character responding emotionally. I would actually agree if Sayaka starts saying that "the body is unpractical and whatnot".
However, it is perfectly clear that she considers herself as "non human", which cannot be explained with pure logic, but rather with affect and psyche.

I partially agreed with this, when I said that if I was a teenaged girl, I might be more sympathetic. But endless teenage girl angst and whining doesn't entertain me, anymore than it did in Twilight. And obviously, Twilight has it's fans, so great on them. Not every work can appeal to everyone, obviously.

The rest of what you're saying, I understand, it's just not convincing. The fact that Kyoko is living proof that one can accept it, and still lead a "normal" life shatters the notion. If Sayaka can't get over it, that's her problem. And I expect some angst; just not endless amounts of it. As the trope said, then it drops down into wangst territory.

I dunno about you Kaijo, but I seriously think you are trapping yourself into a world of definitions that simply ignore all circumstances. Using a trope is rather dubious to begin with. Using it as reference may be fine to you, but you are actually using it as word of evangile, defining a situation as the trope sees it, ignoring completely the situation we have, portrayed by the author.
And I don't get how you consider it as a "endless amount of angst". The girl barely get hit by such revelation, and doesn't have any idea what do to for now, then before she could even even suck it up, one of her best friends nudge the very touchy subject, leading to even more complications.

And everything probably lasted for less than a week, so I really don't see how you can label it as "endless amount of angst".

As much as I find Sayaka flawed and that she had it coming, I believe the "angst" she has displayed is perfectly in line with the situation and character.
It would be quite unatural for her to accept it as readily as Kyoko, or being able to cope it after Hitomi's ultimatum.

[Kaijo]

It's a matter of plot convenience. Speaking as a writer myself, if I wanted to drive a character nuts, that would be the perfect place to put it. Sayaka is at her most vulnerable, just recovering off one big revelation.

The problem with plot conveniences, is that they come out of nowhere. There is no buildup, and they come at the absolute perfect moment; almost like a reverse Dues Ex. For a writer, they are handy, but they strain the suspense of belief for the audience. If Gen planned this, it would have worked better had he done some foreshadowing. Say have Sayaka run into Hitomi at the hospital, or mention that Hitomi came by, or they visit together. Or have some sort of conversation about Kamijou, where we can see looks on Hitomi's face that show she was obviously troubled about something.

Sure, we might not have divined the reason why, but when ep7 rolled around, we would have looked back and gone, "Oooh, yeah, so that's what her issue was."

Part of the issue was how cold Hitomi came across, and how little time she gave, too. 1 day. Some friend. "Hey, you know that girl you like? Giving you one day to confess your feelings for her. If you don't, I'm making a move!"

So everything seems perfectly tuned to inflict the greatest amount of angst onto Sayaka.

[Thoguht]

I can only put it down to Urobochi's genius that so many highly-repped people are totally missing the point and posting the negative things that they are.

Buttons pushed and raw nerves touched, much? Yes, indeed. Maybe you have to have accepted a devil's bargain yourself to understand how Sayaka feels...

[Fandal]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Part of the issue was how cold Hitomi came across, and how little time she gave, too. 1 day. Some friend. "Hey, you know that girl you like? Giving you one day to confess your feelings for her. If you don't, I'm making a move!"

Could it have been that near death experience she faced? She might realized something bad could have happened to her back then but it didn't. She really didn't want to wait any longer?

[garbage]

Hitomi's actions seems as though she was actually just doing it to force sayaka to be true to herself. Considering her reaction in the classroom when kamijo came to school. she was looking at sayaka not kamijo. Good intentions not knowing about the MS situation sayaka is in. well of course good intentions can go bad. I could be wrong tho and Hitomi really does love Kamijo.

the witch's silhouete does look like a girl ( former MS? )kneeling and praying. of course it's all dark.

ahh C1000 CM, miss mah CC lemon drink those were my fave when i was in japan along with pocari ^^

homura as madoka's daughter? hehe just random thoughts before i read the thread.

[Seihai]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

A fair question. I actually feel that, listening to the crack of the whip, watching Arf tremble and try to hold back tears, flinching everytime Fate cried out, and then watching a near-zombie like Fate limp along and smile somewhat, talking about how she had to please mother...

Yeah, honestly speaking, I find that scene to be more powerfully moving and emotional and tragic, then anything I've seen in Madoka. Well, Mami's death was just about as moving, but ever since then, I haven't felt much. And this is coming from someone who isn't such a Fate fanboy.

OK, then we just have to agree to disagree.

snip

snip

So I suppose, I'm waiting on the series to actually show me why this is supposed to be bad.

Point taken. Though I would also like to point out that you (in my opinion) seem to be too rational about certain stuff as a cause. Our minds are on different levels I guess!

But consider this: A number of people ardently believe there has to be a better way to handle this witch situation. We don't know how because... we lack information. Wouldn't you like more information so you could see if you could find a better way? A way to eliminate witches that doesn't require contracting young girls for life?

Yes, I would. With all my doubts I would. Not much I can add I think. Though since I'm an optimist I can say that blame should not be given for something that was not done. And actually, Madoka did indirectly ask things. They were rather rough and led by simple emotions though. Like "Can't you do something about this (to make them stop fighting)?" or "I wonder if I can just wish to become one?" Just saying, though. lol

And sorry. My question was if other MGs in MG shows didn't also not ask all imaginable things.

[Tyabann]

Was I the only person who watched this and felt that Sayaka's crazy laughter was kind of... out of place?

It just seemed to me like a rather heavy-handed way of showing that she'd snapped.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Mentar

I don't feel that I can give her the top rating in Altruism because her wish for Kamijou is tinged with clear self-interest (hopes to be loved by him, she's very aware of it), and there also is clear vanity in her ("I wanna be cool like Mami"), but her intent to help others is genuine.(...)we end up with a crusader for good, who I'm afraid is going to fall into despair, and then either turn into a victim or a martyr(...)If she gives up herself, she'll seek to become a martyr for her cause (the next ep preview ominously sounds like this)...

I just want to comment on this,I agree with this rating and in this episode Sayaka found out she wasn't worthy of being top rated in altruism like she thought she was.She fell off the pedestal she put herself on,to me that's what really "broke" Sayaka.
What scares me is that indeed she might try to put herself back on that pedestal by overdoing it and being a "crusador for good".She'll still want to go after familiars,but I think the even if Kyoko was pretty sympathetic in this episode,she made a pretty clear point that she doesn't like food being wasted,and to her killing familars is like wasting food.
So I could see them clash again,except that since episode 5 I'd say Sayaka has become a much tougher oponent for Kyoko,Sayaka might not be technicaly superior but she doesn't feel pain anymore so I'm not sure Kyoko would get the better end of that fight.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

You cannot possibly argue that the goal of Strikers was not to add a sense of maturity and world building to the Nanoha franchise that was clearly lacking beforehand.

StrikerS was simply fleshing out the world of the Nanoha franchise, and adding a new dimension (and new central characters) to the Nanoha franchise in order to take advantage of its established popularity.

It has nothing to do with trying to make a cynical magical girl show, or trying to account for some supposed lack of maturity.

The reason I said it wouldn't make sense is that, if we were just dropped into pure carnage, it would be hard to take this seriously as a deconstruction of the magical girl genre.

NGE had its characters frequently dropped into pure carnage (and End of Eva was almost entirely pure carnage). Did that make it hard to take seriously as a deconstruction of super robot anime?

I would argue that Anno's approach there made NGE's deconstruction effort that much more compelling.

Also, I think the lack of overly exciting action is just again part of the deconstruction.

Did NGE's "overly exciting action" make its deconstruction any less compelling to you? And NGE had plenty of very exciting action.

Originally Posted by justsomeguy

Episode 3 had quite enough of that.

I disagree. If you only show one character die, then that death starts to seem like an isolated incident the longer you go on without another character death. So the impact of it wanes in time if it isn't complimented by other casualties.

At this point, the impact of Mami's death has waned for me, and it's starting to seem a bit isolated to me.

The fact that the mascot creature is a manipulative prick instead of a sincere ally adds quite a bit more grim darkness.

People disagree on Kyubey quite a bit. For those of us who disagree with you on Kyubey, we are not going to get the same 'grimdark' impact from him as you do. In fairness, that is a subjective matter, but we are discussing (mostly, if not entirely) subjective opinions here.

She was basically tricked into undergoing a surgery that she did not give informed consent to,

She agreed to take on a position which clearly required her to undergo bodily change. Is it Kyubey's fault that Sayaka never asked for the specific nature of those changes?

This isn't quite valid, because Madoka Magica is supposedly a mahou shoujo show, not shounen or tokusatsu. Having a young girl advertised to be one of the main heroines get her head chewed off in the third episode goes beyond conventions here.

Sure, and that made the first run-in between Sayaka and Kyoko that much more dramatic and intense.

But if you don't follow up that one death with another nasty casualty or injury suffered during battle, it starts to lose its effect with time. At least for me it does.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

The monsters in Sailor Moon were often humanoid in appearance (or if not, they had a human form for disguise) and could speak. That gives them more humanity than the Witches in Madoka.

Personally, I'm no more freaked out by a monstrous non-humanoid than by a monstrous humanoid. But to each their own.

Cardcaptor Sakura usually fought alone, but they still had someone they could trust.

For a very long time, Cardcaptor Sakura had no magical girl or magical boy ally that she could turn to. Like Sayaka, all she had was a a normal human friend.

There were Sailor Moon battles that took place on Earth in public.

But not all of them did. So if Sailor Moon had died in a non-public and/or off-planet fight, she'd suffer the same fate that Sayaka would from dying in combat.

... but none of the MGs in Madoka are antagonists.

Kyoko was clearly presented as an antagonistic figure at first. Just because she called a truce this episode doesn't change that. It's no different than the Wolkenritter of Nanoha, really.

And the only serious magical girl vs. magical girl fights in this anime have involved Kyoko.

It's nonsensical to kill off a character with development for the sake of showing brutality.

I strongly disagree. Many war-based animes show multiple character deaths (or character deaths at regular intervals) in order to remind the viewer of just how brutal the war is, and to remind the viewer of the stakes involved. I've seen this used very effectively in many mecha animes.

Anyway, as for Kyousuke, Hitomi gave Sayaka plenty of time. While it looks like Hitomi only gave her a day,

It doesn't "look like" that. Is is that. Hitomi very specifically gave her one day.

One day is not plenty of time for a young girl with a big crush to gather up the courage to make a confession.

Hitomi could be more considerate here, imo.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

...Taking the a single point of a series arguably doesn't define it.

A fair point, but this wasn't the only reason I was failing to find much difference.

That's fallacy. You just cannot take someone else experiencing the same, but reacting differently and conclude "the situation doesn't suck" (be it in general or by that trope definition).
A situation is deemed X or Y, depending of the person affected by it. Otherwise, should a person A consider themselves "lucky" to earn xxxx$ per month, because a person B consider that lucky, because they earn a lower wage?

So, you'd have sympathy for the poor person crying that they only make $500,000 a year? Because the taxes on that kind of money is a real pain to handle. Where is the empathy there?

The fact Kyoko settled her mind doesn't make Sayaka's situation any less reasonable that it is. It may work for Kyoko, but that doesn't mean other girls would accept it readily like that.

It shows that it is possible to live with, and live quite well at that. If Kyoko was having a hard time accepting it, too, then I might start to see it. To keep using your money example.... How much sympathy do you have for someone who whines about paying taxes on their $100,000 a year salary? If it's shown that there are other people making that kind of money and living a nice life, then it kinda puts to lie to the idea that making $100,000 a year is somehow bad. Yeah, sure, Sayaka could honestly be broken up about only making $100,000 a year. But I wouldn't have much sympathy for that. Would you?

Except we also have a lot of examples defining a sheer difficulty for a character to accept that. It seems rather unreasonable to use outside example, and paste the situation over them.

One example: Sayaka. Kyoko and Homura have both accepted it, in albeit different fashions(And it didn't take Kyoko long). That's 2 out of 3 MG's.

The sole issue is that -she does not see her human any longer-. Period.
You may say that it is awesome, but I personally disagree: I can't imagine how awesome it is to be in some sort of avatar instead of being actually yourself.

Perhaps you honestly feel that way. But as I said above, I do not. I only said I am not convinced that this is all bad, and have listed ways that would convince me otherwise. And I have a majority of MG's in the series agreeing with me (who are aware of it).

As for Setsuna, what she says is a exclamation of her fear of rejection, because s

he isn't human. The fact she has powers isn't the issue, but the wings are a proof she isn't "human", which is the true issue. And as shown afterwards, she learns that people do not care that much if she is human or not, clearing her fears and mind.

And thus learns to accept herself as she is; something Sayaka needs to do. Hell, Setsuna goes on to smooch her love, too.

That doesn't make the character wrong by any means: it is something that is perfectly reasonable for people who fear rejection and the likes, and I see no reason to think that it is a stretch that someone can't see themselves as human as their peers.

I never said it made the character wrong; just that *I* didn't buy it as a bad thing. In all honesty, I felt she dealt with it well... right up until the end. If she doesn't get over this in the next episode, then it will come across as wangst to me. "Oh, poor me. I have some sort of disability (to me) therefore no one can love me."

I'm sorry, but she is definitely not the same biologically: Biologically speaking, a body cannot regenerate and so forth. You may say it is a semantic play, but that's the truth: she is not a human being, and the body itself is also attesting it.

It's the magic regenerating it. As Kyube says, the body still takes damage, but because the soul isn't in it, you can repair it easily. But what I'm referring to with this line of thought, is that nothing really has changed. She still eats, shits, and sleeps.

While I do not agree that a scar will turn someone less than human, some people will actually think so, and I can attest such occurences aren't so rare in reality (auto mutilation and so forth in psychiatric ward, burned people in an intensive care ward etc).

And again, that is in their mind, and for them to overcome. We ALL have things about ourselves we don't like. Does everyone break down into whiny angst over it? Being able to accept things about you, is also human. So in a way, Sayaka even asking herself these questions is proof that she's still human. If she throws that away as the ending psycho sequence demonstrates, then she'll have lost her humanity.

Using a trope is to begin with, rather dubious to begin with. Using it as reference may be fine to you, but you are actually using it as word of evangile, defining a situation as the trope sees it, ignoring completely the situation we have, portrayed by the author.

There is nothing good or bad about a trope. It's just a tool, and every show has them. I merely brought it up to illustrate my issue with the show. Hey, I can understand it would be upsetting to learn, but then you are left with two choices: accept it, or angst about it. Which option is the smarter one, I'll leave as an exercise to the reader.

As much as I find Sayaka flawed and that she had it coming, I believe the "angst" she has displayed is perfectly in line with the situation and character.
I would be otherwordly unatural for her to accept it as readily as Kyoko, or being able to cope it after Hitomi's ultimatum.

To a degree, I agree. She did seem to accept it and come out firm after a couple of days. Part of my issue is in the convenient timing of Hitomi's chat, Sayaka healthily dealing with it by recognizing her issues and having a good cry on a friend's shoulder... and then watching her instantly regress to psycho at the end. Kamijou got over his outburst, so I'll forgive her if she gets over it next episode (although at this point, I'm expecting more convenient outcomes designed to push Sayaka into full nutball territory).

Originally Posted by Vanish

Point taken. Though I would also like to point out that you (in my opinion) seem to be too rational about certain stuff as a cause. Our minds are on different levels I guess!

Heh, it's fine. People are different, after all. And I've tried to tell people several times that I am a coldly logical person. It's just who I am, and who I choose to be. We all have to find ways to deal with ourselves in this world, much like Sayaka does.

Yes, I would. With all my doubts I would. Not much I can add I think. Though since I'm an optimist I can say that blame should not be given for something that was not done. And actually, Madoka did indirectly ask things. They were rather rough and led by simple emotions though. Like "Can't you do something about this (to make them stop fighting)?" or "I wonder if I can just wish to become one?" Just saying, though. lol

You have a point, and it should be noted that Kyube was readily answering those questions. But her questions only came out in the heat of the moment. When the situation is calm, and she has time to think, she isn't asking any.

And sorry. My question was if other MGs in MG shows didn't also not ask all imaginable things.

Most ask the usual questions that would be expected. Also, from what I'm being told, Madoka is supposed to be somehow different, so I am expecting more from it. If they are going to take this more realistic, cynical approach to the show, then they need to follow through. They don't have the excuse of a more light-hearted idealistic show.

[Silverwyrm]

I don't think Kyoko's past is necessarily a death flag, I mean we have to learn something about all the characters eventually and if learning about them means they die then shoot, no character will live through any anime. What set me off on Mami was a sudden past combined with "after this is over lets have cake"

With that said I fear for the lives of all the characters in this show, I feel Madoka likely wont die, but I also feel everyone else might at some point or another. Just like Sayaka any development right now in this show is answered with "death flags!" ever since Mami's demise.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by totoum

What scares me is that indeed she might try to put herself back on that pedestal by overdoing it and being a "crusador for good".She'll still want to go after familiars,but I think the even if Kyoko was pretty sympathetic in this episode,she made a pretty clear point that she doesn't like food being wasted,and to her killing familars is like wasting food.

You mean like this?
Sayaka: Ugh *trapped by a witch*
Kyoko: How many times do you need me to tell you?! *frees Sayaka and attacks witch*
Sayaka: Both of you are evil! DIE! *stabs witch by stabbing through Kyoko's soul gem*
Madoka: No!!!

Heh

[Triple_R]

I'll say this - Madoka Magica is a magical girl anime reflected through a mirror darkly. It's like looking at your own reflection in a mirror in a very dark (but not pitch black) room. All the major characters in this are like stock magical girl character types, but made a touch darker (and probably a touch more realistic).

Madoka is more timid and given to panic attacks than Cardcaptor Sakura. Otherwise, they're a lot alike.

Sayaka is less emotionally stable than Nanoha. Otherwise, they're a lot alike.

Kyoko is a bit more selfish than Vita. Otherwise, they're a lot alike.

Homura maintains her cold exterior better than Fate did. Otherwise, they're a lot alike.

And I don't think I need to explain Kyubey.

So, it's like taking all of these magical girl character types, and giving them a more dark and imperfect reflection.

And that's fine. That's good. It is somewhat original.


But I guess I was expecting Madoka Magica to be a magical girl anime reflected through a cracked mirror.

But who knows, maybe in the end the "through a mirror darkly" approach will work best. I'll keep up my hopes there.

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I disagree. If you only show one character die, then that death starts to seem like an isolated incident the longer you go on without another character death. So the impact of it wanes in time if it isn't complimented by other casualties.

At this point, the impact of Mami's death has waned for me, and it's starting to seem overly isolated to me.

I would like to ask where you get your views from, since one dramatic death is one more than most mahou shoujo shows where there is no death on the protagonist side at all.

People disagree on Kyubey quite a bit. Clearly, justsomeguy, for folks who disagree with you on Kyubey, are not going to get the same impact from him as you do.

People disagree on whether he is evil or not, and what his motives are. Nobody disagrees that he is deceptive and not very trustworty, unless they are naive. This if very different from other mahou shoujo shows where the fairies/familiars are clearly allies.

She agreed to take on a position which clearly required her to undergo bodily change. Is it Kyubey's fault that Sayaka never asked for the specific nature of those changes?

In the real world, it is a doctor/surgeon's responsibility to explain everything that would be done during a procedure and what consequences and complications there can be, because most patients do not have the necessary knowledge to even think of the right questions to ask. So yes, it is QB's fault, since he willingly kept secrets while dealing with a young girl who was in emotional turmoil at the time.

Sayaka expected to gain powers. She did not expect to lose anything, even if it is still close to her in trinket form.

But if you don't follow up that one death with another nasty casualty or injury suffered during battle, it starts to lose its effect with time. At least for me it does.

For you it does. How much more "effect" do you want beyond the brutal death of a major character? Your current attitude is similar to that of Madoka and Sayaka at the beginning, where Mami made everything look easy and minimized the very real risk of death. (And if mahou shoujo are immortal, then the only possible death is a brutal one, while life is spent watching everybody they know and care about age and die naturally.)

For a very long time, Cardcaptor Sakura had no magical girl or magical boy ally that she could turn to. Like Sayaka, all she had was a a normal human friend.

Sakura had Tomoyo and Kero to support her right from the beginning, even if they did not actually fight alongside her. Sayaka has Madoka, who is apparently useless right now, a non-human creature who lacks sympathy, and two other magical girls she views as enemies. They are in very different positions.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Sayaka is less emotionally stable than Nanoha. Otherwise, they're a lot alike.

... (speechless)

Explain to me how/when Nanoha was ever screwed over the way Sayaka was just screwed over, and is (in my opinion) obviously going to be completely destroyed in the upcoming eps.

But I guess I was expecting Madoka Magica to be a magical girl anime reflected through a cracked mirror.

But who knows, maybe in the end the "through a mirror darkly" approach will work best. I'll keep up my hopes there.

Hello? After watching Sayaka in the last scene in ep7, you're talking about "through a mirror darkly"?

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But I guess I was expecting Madoka Magica to be a magical girl anime reflected through a cracked mirror.

But who knows, maybe in the end the "through a mirror darkly" approach will work best. I'll keep up my hopes there.

I really don't care either way but there's still time for the mirror to crack .

[creb]

Btw, are we supposed to take Kyoko at face value when she said the world is balanced out. For all the hope (wishes) there needs to be equal despair brought into the world?

Or should we just take that as the lesson Kyoko took from her past (ie: while true to her perspective, might not be true in the bigger scheme of things).

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Explain to me how/when Nanoha was ever screwed over the way Sayaka was just screwed over, and is (in my opinion) obviously going to be completely destroyed in the upcoming eps.

Not completely similar, but Nanoha spent several years in rehab due to almost dying, and learning that she possibly might not ever fly or use magic again. She also had her adoptive daughter kidnapped, and then watched helpless as she was tortured on broadcast TV.

In some ways, it was even worse than Sayaka. Sayaka just found out another girl likes the boy she likes. Oh, and her body is more durable then before.

But I've said before that the better comparisons are Madoka to Mai HiME. You can pretty much transplant HiME characters to Madoka and vice versa, and not get much change, heh.

Originally Posted by creb

Btw, are we supposed to take Kyoko at face value when she said the world is balanced out. For all the hope (wishes) there needs to be equal despair brought into the world?

Or should we just take that as the lesson Kyoko took from her past (ie: while true to her perspective, might not be true in the bigger scheme of things).

In this series, it's hard to tell what to take seriously and what is just our minds over-analyzing. So it could go either way. Me, personally, I wouldn't ascribe much to it unless it is somehow confirmed later.