Madoka Magica - Episode 06 Discussion / Poll

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Thanks for sending me to sleep feeling quite a bit less weird. I've got to admit that having to struggle hard to defend a position which my core feels like it should be the DEFAULT rather than the exception gets strangely unsettling after a while ^_^;

One side revelation I had on the third rewatch... it's obvious that Kyoko - who is supposed to be quite senior - didn't know anything about the Soul Gem proximity issue. Homura on the other hand clearly knew, and acted instantly. So it's safe to assume that Homura is very well-versed in the technicalities of the MG contract.

WHY DIDN'T SHE USE HER KNOWLEDGE TO DISSUADE MADOKA AND SAYAKA?

Yeeeah, that's a pretty big plot hole.

Or a pretty big character flaw, depending on your point of view.

Just so you know, Mentar, this is a big part of the reason why I've been defending Kyubey, at least up until now ("If there is this big, awful, yet-to-be-said catch to being a magical girl, then why the heck isn't Homura revealing it?").

[AvatarST]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

What do you mean, not perfected? What is the information that changes the nature? Still waiting on subs myself, because last time I listened to what people said about the episode, it turned out to be not quite true.

Edit: and to be clear, we (and the girls) knew that becoming a magical girl meant you'd fight witches as long as you lived. It didn't seem to be something you could get out of (although we often raised the point about what would happen if a girl simply decided to stop fighting; what forces her?). In return, you get a wish granted and magical powers. Some might not make that bargain, but some would. To me, it comes down to personal choice.

Spoiler for episode 6:

From what I gather in this thread, as I haven't watched the sub yet, it appears the soul gem is their actual soul, so they become something akin to liches with a phylactery; their bodies become empty shells. They die if their soul gem isn't kept recharged or is somehow lost.

I highly doubt the girls would've accepted the contract if they knew this information.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

Spoiler for episode 6:

From what I gather in this thread, as I haven't watched the sub yet, it appears the soul gem is their actual soul, so they become something akin to liches with a phylactery; their bodies become empty shells. They die if their soul gem isn't kept recharged or is somehow lost.

I highly doubt the girls would've accepted the contract if they knew this information.

You sure they wouldn't have? Let's think about this logically: They already knew from watching Mami, that being a magical girl means you fight until you die, and that death is a very real possibility. They knew it was a lifelong contract that only ends in death. Their body isn't really a shell, since they still eat and experience things. It doesn't really seem like they are dead, just that their soul is now given physical form. Mami still died from having her head chopped off. If she was a lich or undead, she wouldn't have died from that. They are still very much flesh and blood.

Now think about it from a different perspective and answer a question: If someone offered to draw out your soul and turn it into an item that would give you power... would you do it? Knowing it would turn you into a superhero?

To me, this information doesn't change the end result too much. If the girls thought about it logically, they'd probably conclude that. Then again, they'd probably react emotionally and not calmly think things through.

A question I have asked before, but haven't had anyone answer yet: If someone like Kyube came along and offered you super powers to fight evil creatures and protect people, would you do it? Even knowing that death is a real possibility? Perhaps not everyone would. I would, so maybe that is coloring my feelings some. But I recognize it's not something everyone could handle.

And in all fairness, Kyube could have explained this before. But when I think about it logically, and knowing how emotionally some people react, I can see why he didn't. Had it been me, I would have grilled Kyube for all the details before, but these girls don't seem quite smart enough to do that (which has been bugging me for a long time now.

But it is interesting that Homura knew this, too, and didn't say anything. So if Kyube is evil and bad for withholding information, then so is Homura. Personally, I don't think either of them evil, but time could change my opinion.

But yeah, I'll wait for the subs to get a better handle on exactly what was said, so I can form a better opinion.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Well is lying by omission cheating? If not, then i could say i own the Effiel tower and want to sell it to you. After i get your money, i give you a model of the Effiel tower. Oh sorry, i didn't mention it?

Anyone still wanting to say Kyubei is fair and netural?

Ahhh, more lulz will be coming with every episode.

I foresee some will start backtracking and preparing excuses but the lulz will not spare them especially those with so may funny quotes

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

i'm just seriously hoping homura has good reasons as to why she didn't inform the two about it all. DX i won't be able to accept that she's if ever. DX

i want to know more about homura. i'm so worried. DX

[Key Board]

I hate arguing about semantics

but to avoid even more arguments about that let's just say that I don't sense any active contempt from QB

on the other he is very shrewd businessman, he doesn't explain all the rules, he is lacking in empathy, and feeds on grief (seeds)

at the very least I can say that he is amoral (not immoral) and that being a magical girl is a bad baaad thing

I'd give him the amount of trust I give Koemushi from Bokurano.

The thing with QB is he's becoming more and more like the archetypal devil when regarding the truth. Devils don't lie, they just never
tell you everything, or they only tell you part of the truth

So dealing with him becomes difficult. You can't totally ignore him since he might provide bits of information. At the same time you wonder
what he is not telling you. Like that bit about witches potentially reviving when you dump too much black spots on their grief seeds. Is he in fact, implying that something similar might happen if too many black spots cover your soul gem?

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

So he's done some extremely questionable things, he's manipulative and deceitful and he's not trustworthy. He's also dangerous. That's fine. We agree there.

I still want to know his motivations before calling him evil. I guess it's a matter of the definition of the word "evil".

Here are some examples that you may wish to consider if they are evil. These are all manipulative, deceitful and dangerous. The last is from a view point of an animal but this animal has human intelligence (which is one point many seem to be missing)

i) Enron's CEO encouraged their staff to buy their shares a few days before it collasped. Those who did screwed their old age funds and could be homeless and/or bankrupt and that includes your parents. Evil? Not evil?

ii) A con man tricks your parents into thinking you've been kidnapped and get them to give him their life savings, their house (sold) and your savings. Evil? Not evil?

iii) Man drives on the road with a semi and ignores any sedan sized car smashing them and their passengers aside or simply rolling over the motorcyclists because he can't see or hear very well. Evil? Not evil?

iv) Your new girlfriend/boyfriend tells you that she/he needs one of your kidneys or they will die and its true. While you're under anesthesia, they take both your kidneys and she/he disappears. Now you're on dialysis for the rest of your life or until a kind person donates to you. Evil? Not evil?

v) Cannibal says he's like that because of a DNA problem and he's not exactly human and its true. He proceeds to eat your dad who he coerced into knocking himself out by threatening to harm you. He says he would like to eat your mom too because he's still hungry. Maybe he just enjoys eating or he's really still hungry. You don't know. Evil? Not evil?

[anomono]

Let's put it this way: a life and a soul are potentially very different things. Sacrificing your life is nothing compared to offering up your soul for eternal torment to be served in Qベ's stomach, or whatever other fate awaits it.

[Decagon]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Except, as Decagon pointed out earlier, Kyube is not doing this for his own survival. He's doing it so the witches can't be reborn. So, he's doing it for Humanity's survival. I only put up the "doing it for his survival" aspect because I was looking for reasons as to why he was doing this. Honestly, if you're gonna cling to the evil theme, you should have stuck with believing he was doing it to feed himself. At least then you could have played up the greed angle.

Outwardly this is the case, but that would require us to assume that he isn't actively safekeeping grief seeds other girls not near him are using to the almost-hatching-the-witch point. It also brings into the question of what those girls do with the seeds if they aren't using it past that point. In the scene he warns Sayaka that she shouldn't use the seed she got from Elly any more and he takes it for safe keeping, but there is no conversation about what would happen if, say, Sayaka were to just leave it without using it anymore. If the episode tells us anything, he does not provide upfront information that would be good to know.

I wanted to comment on the 17:13 message of yours, but the subs should probably help clear it up and sound less quarrelsome than I.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Decagon

Outwardly this is the case, but that would require us to assume that he isn't actively safekeeping grief seeds other girls not near him are using to the almost-hatching-the-witch point. It also brings into the question of what those girls do with the seeds if they aren't using it past that point. In the scene he warns Sayaka that she shouldn't use the seed she got from Elly any more and he takes it for safe keeping, but there is no conversation about what would happen if, say, Sayaka were to just leave it without using it anymore. If the episode tells us anything, he does not provide upfront information that would be good to know.

I wanted to comment on the 17:13 message of yours, but the subs should probably help clear it up and sound less quarrelsome than I.

Of note is that Homura was adamant on taking the grief seed at the end of Ep 3. I think its safe to say she will not pass it to Kyubei. Now what does she do with it? Interesting is it not?

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Decagon

Outwardly this is the case, but that would require us to assume that he isn't actively safekeeping grief seeds other girls not near him are using to the almost-hatching-the-witch point. It also brings into the question of what those girls do with the seeds if they aren't using it past that point. In the scene he warns Sayaka that she shouldn't use the seed she got from Elly any more and he takes it for safe keeping, but there is no conversation about what would happen if, say, Sayaka were to just leave it without using it anymore. If the episode tells us anything, he does not provide upfront information that would be good to know.

One of the things I've always wondered about, is exactly how many MG's are there? Are they all over the world? How would a single Kyube handle all of them, especially since he is seeming to spend a lot of time around Madoka and Sayaka and the rest. If the witch problem, and thus MGs, are all centered around Tokyo (or wherever this place is), and he can teleport around, that would be one way. Another is that there could be more than one Kyube, or the real Kyube is using the magical animal we see as sort of a puppet. Thus, he can project his words and such all over the place.

You're right that we don't know what he's doing with the seeds, and we do only have his word that he is safeguarding them, but until we have a better idea of why that is, we only have speculation to go on.

Okay, having said that, finally watched the subs, so I'm gonna work through some of my thoughts.

Kyube is obviously not human, in that he doesn't quite understand human emotions. Or he lacks them totally, and functions as sort of a robot. He clearly didn't seem to understand why people would get upset, when from his point of view, what he does is logical. He does understand some things, such as when he told Madoka that he could say some things to Sayaka, but knows it wouldn't do anything to persuade her otherwise. This harkens back to Kyoko as well, and sheds light as to why he didn't do more to dissuade her; he knew it wouldn't do any good.

He takes a soul and hardens it in a gem, so that the body can handle the stresses of magic, and be easily repaired by magic. This allows them to stand up to witches; without it, someone couldn't use magic or handle a witch fight. There is a clear method to the cost of using magic here, so if Madoka is going to become an MG, she'd have to pay the cost as well. If she gets out of that cost somehow, it will cheapen the sacrifices everyone else has made and make her lucky.

As a side note, where was Mami's soul gem again? I think I read someone say it was in her hair, which would have meant the witch ate it, and thus probably not likely she could come back. But to hear Kyube explain this, even if you had your head taken off, as long as your gem is intact, you could be put back together. That's some damn fine durability there.

I'm more impressed with Sayaka; she's not just naive and knows very well what is at stake. She clearly wants to protect others, from witches or MG's. She's still a bit hot-headed, but it is an interesting back and forth that she has with Madoka there. Madoka clearly represents the ideal, while Sayaka is swinging more pragmatically, while still retaining a desire to protect.

In an idealistic universe, Madoka would be right. But in a cynical universe, Sayaka would be more correct. Time will tell as to which this is, although it is leaning to cynical (which would make any Madoka powerups that don't involve costs to be contrary). But it's interesting to see Sayaka is swinging more in line with Kyoko and Homura.

About this Wdskjfgkjd night thing; it was something that Kyoko clearly knew about, too, and it almost sounds like some sort of tournament or fight. Kyoko thought she would be better off with a friend helping her out in it.

Regarding Homura - Still wondering about this girl. She clearly knew about Soul Gems, but didn't see fit to tell Madoka or Sayaka about it. Why not? If people consider Kyube evil for not telling them, they'd have to call Homura evil, too. Still not entirely convinced she is from the future, but it is a possibility. You can't change the past without creating a grandfather paradox, so it is unclear what she expects to do. Perhaps she is going back in time to create the conditions that would send her future self back in time. Perhaps she's not going to change anything, but merely fulfill what had already happened, and will happen again. If time travel is involved, this is the most likely explanation. I won't speculate too much more, other than to say there are still a few other possibilities (one being that she is a precog and can see possible futures)

Lastly, back to Kyube... I can see why he didn't say anything to the girls. It sounds like this has happened before. Perhaps he told girls and they decided not to. Without girls to fight witches, the witches kill more humans. So, if you are Kyube, you have a choice:

#1. Keep telling girls and hope that some can handle it (and yeah, we all know how young girls can be logical and totally keep their emotions in check)

#2. Leave that part out, as ultimately it doesn't matter much, and you get your soldiers to fight and protect humanity.

It's clear Kyube picked #2. It's not an easy choice to make, and even I would have a tough time doing it. Sometimes, the general just can't tell the troops the full truth, because sometimes people can't handle it. And yet, without the troops, we're all doomed. Which do you pick? If you said #1, that would be the idealistic choice. #2 is the more cynical universe choice.

Which universe are we in again?

I am beginning to lean a bit towards Kyube not being too "good" (in a relative sense). At least, he has done some questionable things, even if I understand the logic. But as noted above, the choice doesn't seem to be an easy one.

That's all my thoughts for now. I'll probably have more later.

[karuroso]

That Walpugisnacht seems to be a reference of something i'm fail to understand D= anyone could enlighten me please

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by karuroso

That Walpugisnacht seems to be a reference of something i'm fail to understand D= anyone could enlighten me please

Walpurgis Night thanks to the wiki.

Seems like a meeting of sorcerers and witches. Interesting. Will all witches and magical girls come together in the same spot? If so, what will happen? The plot thickens....

[BarbecueSauce]

Originally Posted by karuroso

That Walpugisnacht seems to be a reference of something i'm fail to understand D= anyone could enlighten me please

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walpurgis_Night

It's the night when witches hold a large celebration.

[karuroso]

thanks =D at first i thought this name was from a powerful witch, maybe that one from the first ep, it could be ,but now it also seems to be more than one witch D=

[MeoTwister5]

The devil is in the details

I think the episode perfectly elaborates this statement of how the cunning contractor operates. The precise reason as to why you should alwys read the fine print. Then again qb is not obligated to be completely forthcoming with his information. Dishonest he is, but on the subject of moral relativism, this does not exactly make you evil. He's almost like say Lawful Neutral. He is doing something considered good for everyone at large but does not let the concept of morality limit him.

The cyclic nature of the struggles of the Mg vs witches is indicative of the circle of life concept. Again this feel very cyclical in nature like this has been going for longer than anyone could possibly imagine. Qb himself almost seems like transcending existence who has seen things like this more than once. Watching him and Homura makes me think that my recurrence theory might even be correct or at least partially viable.

As is stands there does seem to exist evil in his actions but a bit of nobility in his intentions. We do have to ask though on what universal moral basis we must judge him and his rather Machiavellian methods. More comments when I watch subs.

[Dark Wing]

Just saw the subs and wow that was a heavy revaluation...It's just what can I say you have to see it to believe it...

However (and I know some people will disagree) I still don't think Kyuube is "evil" sure his practices may seem evil but it's still seems to be for the greater good.

[Decagon]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

As a side note, where was Mami's soul gem again? I think I read someone say it was in her hair, which would have meant the witch ate it, and thus probably not likely she could come back. But to hear Kyube explain this, even if you had your head taken off, as long as your gem is intact, you could be put back together. That's some damn fine durability there.

I'd say it was in her hair ornament, too. As magic is used up to fix the damage, this probably explains why Charlotte had to chew on Mami for a bit before her magic disappeared and her two parts disconnected.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

As is stands there does seem to exist evil in his actions but a bit of nobility in his intentions.

How can you say that if you don't even know his intentions? It's not that he ever told the girls they where fighting the witches to protect people or something. The girls themselves (including Mami) came up with that, but Kyubey never confirmed it nor denied it. So we can't judge his intentions at all because their still unknown. For now, we can only judge his actions, and they're quite despicable. To put it simple, he's a jerk.

[MeoTwister5]

Oh I'm not denying the evil in his actions, but I'm also not denying the possible Machiavellian intent behind said actions. There is a sort of public service in his contracting gig, but it would be irresponsible to declare him an absolute evil outright despite the moral relativism thaT seems to be onw of the core themes of the show.