AnimeSuki Forums

CaramelDragon08 · 2009-11-03, 17:10

I haven't taken the time to read this entire board yet so I won't go into detail on my theories without seeing whether or not someone has brought up something similar and it's been discussed thoroughly. But, I did skim through it enough to see that nothing like this had been suggested so I'll propose it simply because of that. This isn't my favorite theory (in the sense of probable correctness), but simply one that's interesting.

Taking Kinzo's love for magic into account, it could be possible that "the key" refers to "The Key of Soloman" a well known grimoire (Actually the only one I had ever even remembered) that is often called simply "The Key" by those who know it. Simply because I don't believe in this theory that much I haven't dove into it, but certain things do make sense. It takes it's look at things by different angels controlling different times between the midnights and the sun-down's... without getting too technical, it could give a reason for the timing of each murder if someone were to look into it. Not to mention it contains some (I believe all but didn't look thoroughly like I said) of the magic circles used thus far. Plus if you look at the sequence of thing in the epitaph it certainly looks as if it could be a ritual carried out by one person in the most blatant sense.

I find it interesting to think that there is both a witch and human answer to this epitaph so both sides could be satisfied. One answer being the gold that the humans want, and the other leading to whatever magical power it was that Eva-Beatrice wanted badly enough to complete the ceremony.

Another problem with this theory is that even if it were possible it would be very difficult to prove as the vast majority of grimoire translators removed parts that they believed dealt with evil magic.

Additionally, I hate thinking it's going to be a word puzzle. I'm not really all that good with kanji so by trying to keep it solvable in my mind I ignore that. Plus, while some of what the characters talk about in the story may have relevance to unlocking the answer, I doubt something covering that large of a portion would just be given away. Then again hiding parts of the answer in plain view would also make you /facepalm when you did finally get the answer if you had ignored it.

Anyways~ I'll probably come back this weekend to contribute after I have time to properly read over the forum. More than anything I just wanted to maybe give you another way to look at things with this post

Christen · 2009-11-03, 22:29

Ryukishi said himself that it's near impossible to solve the epitaph if you're not Japanese.

Ithekro · 2009-11-03, 23:33

Which suggests that it is either word play that doesn't work in say English, or it is a cultural reference that while easy to spot (if one thinks in a childish way) in Japan, might go right over everyone else's heads.

Skullchukka · 2009-11-04, 06:03

I'm still counting on the "If the Epitaph is a wordplay in Kanji/Hiragana whatever, It's almost useless and pointless for the non-Japanese speaking world." idea. I liked it... Maybe Ryuk said `it's near impossible to solve the epitaph if you're not Japanese. ` just to mess with our heads and take us far away from the truth.

Of course, he may have never guessed the game would be translated into English, so It's not practical in that situation to think about the english speaking readers... So the `epitaph is actually a wordplay` theory is very possible now...

Well, I at least hope it can be translated somewhat a little to English when it is revealed. I fear that, if it is actually a wordplay, it would need endless explanations such as (this kanji is read like this, but combined with this, it is actually this, which is also the first sylable of this, so this), which certinly would not give us the shivers as a Japanese speaking person would get by 'solving' the epitaph.

----------------------------

Pure speculation time. I have broken the Epitaph down to 22 lines.

My beloved hometown, the sweetfish river running through it.
You who seek the Golden Land, follow its path downstream and seek the key.
If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village.
In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of.
There sleeps the key to the Golden Land.
He who lays hand upon the key shall travel under the rules below.
At the first twilight, you shall lift up as sacrifice the six chosen by the key.
At the second twilight, those who remain shall tear apart the two who are close.
At the third twilight, those who remain shall praise my honorable name on high.
At the fourth twilight, gouge the head and kill.
At the fifth twilight, gouge the chest and kill.
At the sixth twilight, gouge the stomach and kill.
At the seventh twilight, gouge the knee and kill.
At the eighth twilight, gouge the leg and kill.
At the ninth twilight, the witch shall be revived and none shall be left alive.
At the tenth twilight, the journey shall end and you should reach the village of gold.
The witch will praise the wise, and should bestow four treasures.
One shall be, all the gold from the Golden Land.
One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead.
One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love.
One shall be, to put the witch to sleep for all time.
Sleep peacefully, my most beloved witch, Beatrice.

Now, the utterly, probably silliest speculation begins. I have absolutely no kanji knowlege, so I'll be using the English translation.

Hometown is the Epitaph itself.
The sweetfish running through are actually lines. Since we are running through, it should be logically 'down from the lines to bottom.'
"You who seek the Golden Land, follow its path downstream and seek the key.", means that If you are searching for "Golden Land" [Which is stated at line 5&18 / and 16], you will follow the path [lines] and search for 'key'. The key might be 'key' in line 6.
Line 16 says "land of gold", while line 18 says "Golden Land"
Lets speculate that the key is line 6. We continue reading from line 3.
"If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village. " If we think lines after 6 would be the river downstream, the first village we see is the one at Line 16.
If we take the lines after this actual line [If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village.], the first village we see is line 4.
"In the village" in line 4 may refer to; line 4 completely, line 16 completely, or all the lines between 4 and 16, since villages are a foundations that have boundaries between other villages.
Lets speculate "village" are the lines between 4 and 16.
The "shore" that "two people" would tell, could refer to second twilight. Because a) It is the 2nd twilight, and b) It is telling us to tear apart 2 who are close.
2 that are close should be torn by us. But not only "two that are close", It is said "those who remain shall tear apart the two who are close". Now we haven't done anything to "leave others alone" so they could be torn. So we need to do something, let's try Twilight 1.
"You shall lift up as sacrifice the six chosen by the key."
We speculated that key was line 6. And that line says "Lift up as sacrifice the six, chosen by key." Could this be line 6 itself, rather than 6 seperate lines, or words?
Line 6 is "There sleeps the key to the Golden Land." Edit>Sorry that is actually line 5. -_-
My theory was based on it, however, maybe you can inspire a thought from my reasoning, so Ill just leave it here. For example the `new first two lines` actually could make some sense.
If you can find a way to make Line 5 "the six chosen by the key", I guess this still would work.

Spoiler for old bugged reasoning:

I'm at university right now, couldn't think of an alternate way. But I found this as some interesting fact *hopes it is correct*
Not really a Japanese expert, but I also figured out 陸 is a way to write both shore and six. (?)

Christen · 2009-11-04, 08:45

The number 6 is amazingly all over the place. I've also been thinking that it might have a significance somewhere

- Rokkenjima means Six Houses Island. If you want to push it, Rokken is 6 characters.
- 六軒島 can be written as ろっけんじま or ロッケンジマ which consist of 6 characters as well.
- 右代宮 's 右 is commonly read as みぎ. This makes 右代宮 convertible to 6 characters.
- Kuwadorian is also 6 characters.

Jan-Poo · 2009-11-04, 08:50

I think "nine" is equally predominant in Umineko 'though.

Christen · 2009-11-04, 09:18

Incidentally, 6 and 9 are just upside down forms of each other.

Smeckledorf · 2009-11-05, 21:24

Does anyone have a screen shot of the epitaph as it was originally? I can't remember if there was ever a background of it in the visual novel. I was wondering about this because I thought sweet fish river would mean a clear river and since it went through the hometown then you could draw a line down to go to the next hint, but that is just a wild guess.

k//eternal · 2009-11-05, 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skullchukka

Of course, he may have never guessed the game would be translated into English, so It's not practical in that situation to think about the english speaking readers... So the `epitaph is actually a wordplay` theory is very possible now...

It depends when he made the statement, but he was obviously aware of our existence sometime before EP4.

Jan-Poo · 2009-11-05, 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

Does anyone have a screen shot of the epitaph as it was originally? I can't remember if there was ever a background of it in the visual novel. I was wondering about this because I thought sweet fish river would mean a clear river and since it went through the hometown then you could draw a line down to go to the next hint, but that is just a wild guess.

The original is just a plain text. I don't think there was a picture of it in Episode1. However there is one in Episode3, but as I said it's just text and it isn't really different from the one you can see in the anime.

Geekodot · 2009-11-10, 15:31

Well, im not too good at stuff like this, but going to post my thinking anyhow.

Ok, the epitaph is divided into three parts:

Spoiler for epitaph:

I did some epitaph thinking at school today and I believe that this part:

Spoiler:

is telling us the location of the key to the golden land. If we think of the gold and the Golden Land as the same thing, the key to the gold would be the epitaph... and in that case the hometown would be Rokkenjima, the river could be the path to the house and the house itself could be the village. The key would be the epitaph and when you finally stand there, you can start the riddle. Now the tools to get to the golden land is this passage:

Spoiler:

I believe we are supposed to do with the epitaph as the twilights suggest. First, lets find the six chosen by the key... if the key is the epitaph, then there has to be something there is six of...

How about the last part of the epitaph?

It got six lines and now we are supposed to lift them up. I take that to mean lift them above the twilights part. In that case, the epitaph looks like this:

Spoiler for new epitaph:

Now we got two parts, the "riddle" and the "rules". For the second twilight, we are supposed to tear apart the two who are close from those who remain, that would be the two not among the rules as they are not part of the riddle anymore. There are two lines by themselves at the top, I think we are supposed to split them, however I am not sure by how much. I'm trying to tear them apart as much as possible.

Spoiler:

like this... and then we are supposed to praise the witch's name on high? That might mean moving the line about the witch's name to the top.

Spoiler:

Now, we got 2 parts with 5 lines each and one extra line at the bottom. That makes three parts. Now for the strange parts... how to gouge and kill? I interpret it like "gouging" them in between each other. Notice how the gougings tell you to gouge 5 bodyparts, first head, then chest, then stomach, then knee and last leg. From top to bottom! and to gouge that you need 5 stakes. I try "gouging" the 5 lines of the top part with the 5 lines of the bottom part:

Spoiler:

This is one way to do it. The gougings can however be done in lots of ways and even though this doesn't make much sense there might be something to get from reading it. It looks abit like if you look at the first part, that the hometown and Golden Land is referring to the same thing... and in the second part it talks about a village of the dead? In the village, there is a "shore" where the two of lost love would be and finally, the last part talks about the sleeping key to the golden land and how the witch will sleep for all time.

Don't understand much about what this would mean though...
Maybe it makes more sense for people who can read japanese?

Spoiler for new riddle in japanese:

Finally to wrap it up... I suck at this stuff, but I did what I thought the epitaph was telling me to do and it sort of looked like it could make some sort of sense in the end... if someone can read japanese, look it over and see if you can spot any new meanings or anything, will ya? xD

Jan-Poo · 2009-11-10, 16:01

You completely ignored the hints revealed in Episode3, is it because you think they aren't true?

Geekodot · 2009-11-10, 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You completely ignored the hints revealed in Episode3, is it because you think they aren't true?

Hey I was at school, which means I couldn't really replay ep 3 at the time xD First time I actually tried thinking about the epitaph, because I can't read japanese.

But well, might actually go read it again and try to think about it again.

Tabura · 2009-11-12, 10:46

This is one of my reject theories but it might just help someone solve it anyway... It's about the key part of the epitaph... I thought it might be possible that "my beloved homeland" means kuwadorian or atleast Rokkenjima since he did spend all the time he had with Beatrice here... By that theory the sweetfish river might be his family since when Eva sovled it it was mentioned that it's something like the family tree and it also satisfies the "sweetfish" part since as Hideyoshi said they go live out in the sea and then come back to the river they were born in. I think everything up to this point might just be true but this is where the "rejected" part begins: follow it's path downstream obviously means his offspring and there you find a village namely Maria pointing out which part of the family to look at. "the two will tell you off" probably refers to Rosa since "the shore" might just be the shore Beatrice died on when Rosa helped her escape. A good hint to this is also the fact that Rosa first tells this story in EP3 where Eva solves the riddle. Obviously Beatrice is "sleeping" there so she might be the key... In some way or another... That also explains why Eva needed an atlas... kinda. Post your thoughts on this but do remember this was already rejected so don't go in too deep.

Arbane the Terrible · 2009-11-12, 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabura

I think everything up to this point might just be true but this is where the "rejected" part begins: follow it's path downstream obviously means his offspring and there you find a village namely Maria pointing out which part of the family to look at.

They mention this idea in the SN--Rosa says that's probably not it, as Kinzo wanted her to name Maria something else originally.

Tabura · 2009-11-13, 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arbane the Terrible

They mention this idea in the SN--Rosa says that's probably not it, as Kinzo wanted her to name Maria something else originally.

Well yeah that's what the "rejected" part is about... just wanted to point it out. But you never know maybe he wanted to give her a name with "village" in it anyway...

Workworkwork · 2009-11-13, 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arbane the Terrible

They mention this idea in the SN--Rosa says that's probably not it, as Kinzo wanted her to name Maria something else originally.

There's always the possibility that... yknow, he knew it was a major hint and wanted her name to be something more vague?

rogerpepitone · 2009-11-13, 20:48

But she was named several years before he wrote the epitaph.

Ithekro · 2009-11-14, 01:49

Doesn't mean he didn't have it in mind already.

Arbane the Terrible · 2009-11-14, 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

But she was named several years before he wrote the epitaph.

Don't forget Eva the Younger telling it to her older self, several decades before Kinzo wrote it down...

2009-11-03, 17:10	Link #121
CaramelDragon08 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009	Hmm... I haven't taken the time to read this entire board yet so I won't go into detail on my theories without seeing whether or not someone has brought up something similar and it's been discussed thoroughly. But, I did skim through it enough to see that nothing like this had been suggested so I'll propose it simply because of that. This isn't my favorite theory (in the sense of probable correctness), but simply one that's interesting. Taking Kinzo's love for magic into account, it could be possible that "the key" refers to "The Key of Soloman" a well known grimoire (Actually the only one I had ever even remembered) that is often called simply "The Key" by those who know it. Simply because I don't believe in this theory that much I haven't dove into it, but certain things do make sense. It takes it's look at things by different angels controlling different times between the midnights and the sun-down's... without getting too technical, it could give a reason for the timing of each murder if someone were to look into it. Not to mention it contains some (I believe all but didn't look thoroughly like I said) of the magic circles used thus far. Plus if you look at the sequence of thing in the epitaph it certainly looks as if it could be a ritual carried out by one person in the most blatant sense. I find it interesting to think that there is both a witch and human answer to this epitaph so both sides could be satisfied. One answer being the gold that the humans want, and the other leading to whatever magical power it was that Eva-Beatrice wanted badly enough to complete the ceremony. Another problem with this theory is that even if it were possible it would be very difficult to prove as the vast majority of grimoire translators removed parts that they believed dealt with evil magic. Additionally, I hate thinking it's going to be a word puzzle. I'm not really all that good with kanji so by trying to keep it solvable in my mind I ignore that. Plus, while some of what the characters talk about in the story may have relevance to unlocking the answer, I doubt something covering that large of a portion would just be given away. Then again hiding parts of the answer in plain view would also make you /facepalm when you did finally get the answer if you had ignored it. Anyways~ I'll probably come back this weekend to contribute after I have time to properly read over the forum. More than anything I just wanted to maybe give you another way to look at things with this post Last edited by CaramelDragon08; 2009-11-03 at 17:32. Reason: Spelling failure

2009-11-03, 22:29	Link #122
Christen Endless Nine Artist Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: In a certain tropical island Age: 38	Ryukishi said himself that it's near impossible to solve the epitaph if you're not Japanese. __________________ Please watch where you post and tag your spoilers properly if it's allowed.

2009-11-03, 23:33	Link #123
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Which suggests that it is either word play that doesn't work in say English, or it is a cultural reference that while easy to spot (if one thinks in a childish way) in Japan, might go right over everyone else's heads. __________________

2009-11-04, 06:03	Link #124
Skullchukka Letter from lost days ~ Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Netherlands / Turkey Age: 35	I'm still counting on the "If the Epitaph is a wordplay in Kanji/Hiragana whatever, It's almost useless and pointless for the non-Japanese speaking world." idea. I liked it... Maybe Ryuk said `it's near impossible to solve the epitaph if you're not Japanese. ` just to mess with our heads and take us far away from the truth. Of course, he may have never guessed the game would be translated into English, so It's not practical in that situation to think about the english speaking readers... So the `epitaph is actually a wordplay` theory is very possible now... Well, I at least hope it can be translated somewhat a little to English when it is revealed. I fear that, if it is actually a wordplay, it would need endless explanations such as (this kanji is read like this, but combined with this, it is actually this, which is also the first sylable of this, so this), which certinly would not give us the shivers as a Japanese speaking person would get by 'solving' the epitaph. ---------------------------- Pure speculation time. I have broken the Epitaph down to 22 lines. My beloved hometown, the sweetfish river running through it. You who seek the Golden Land, follow its path downstream and seek the key. If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village. In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of. There sleeps the key to the Golden Land. He who lays hand upon the key shall travel under the rules below. At the first twilight, you shall lift up as sacrifice the six chosen by the key. At the second twilight, those who remain shall tear apart the two who are close. At the third twilight, those who remain shall praise my honorable name on high. At the fourth twilight, gouge the head and kill. At the fifth twilight, gouge the chest and kill. At the sixth twilight, gouge the stomach and kill. At the seventh twilight, gouge the knee and kill. At the eighth twilight, gouge the leg and kill. At the ninth twilight, the witch shall be revived and none shall be left alive. At the tenth twilight, the journey shall end and you should reach the village of gold. The witch will praise the wise, and should bestow four treasures. One shall be, all the gold from the Golden Land. One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead. One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love. One shall be, to put the witch to sleep for all time. Sleep peacefully, my most beloved witch, Beatrice. Now, the utterly, probably silliest speculation begins. I have absolutely no kanji knowlege, so I'll be using the English translation. Hometown is the Epitaph itself. The sweetfish running through are actually lines. Since we are running through, it should be logically 'down from the lines to bottom.' "You who seek the Golden Land, follow its path downstream and seek the key.", means that If you are searching for "Golden Land" [Which is stated at line 5&18 / and 16], you will follow the path [lines] and search for 'key'. The key might be 'key' in line 6. Line 16 says "land of gold", while line 18 says "Golden Land" Lets speculate that the key is line 6. We continue reading from line 3. "If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village. " If we think lines after 6 would be the river downstream, the first village we see is the one at Line 16. If we take the lines after this actual line [If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village.], the first village we see is line 4. "In the village" in line 4 may refer to; line 4 completely, line 16 completely, or all the lines between 4 and 16, since villages are a foundations that have boundaries between other villages. Lets speculate "village" are the lines between 4 and 16. The "shore" that "two people" would tell, could refer to second twilight. Because a) It is the 2nd twilight, and b) It is telling us to tear apart 2 who are close. 2 that are close should be torn by us. But not only "two that are close", It is said "those who remain shall tear apart the two who are close". Now we haven't done anything to "leave others alone" so they could be torn. So we need to do something, let's try Twilight 1. "You shall lift up as sacrifice the six chosen by the key." We speculated that key was line 6. And that line says "Lift up as sacrifice the six, chosen by key." Could this be line 6 itself, rather than 6 seperate lines, or words? Line 6 is "There sleeps the key to the Golden Land." Edit>Sorry that is actually line 5. -_- My theory was based on it, however, maybe you can inspire a thought from my reasoning, so Ill just leave it here. For example the `new first two lines` actually could make some sense. If you can find a way to make Line 5 "the six chosen by the key", I guess this still would work. Spoiler for old bugged reasoning: Line 6 is "There sleeps the key to the Golden Land." Let's lift that up. How? Well, we can put that to the top, as the first line. Now, back to Twilight 2. What is the remaining ones now, since line 6 is gone? And what are the two that are close? Can It be Line 5? "In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of." Here, we can tear this apart . Before the comma, after the comma. I know, original line has no commas. So this step is somewhat not very clear. "At the third twilight, those who remain shall praise my honorable name on high." Where do we see her name? At Line 22 "Sleep peacefully, my most beloved witch, Beatrice". How can we praise a name in high? Well, let's try taking that line on top also, along with line 6. So far, New Epitaph first two lines looks like this: There sleeps the key to the Golden Land. Sleep peacefully, my most beloved witch, Beatrice. Now the gruesome twilights. We need to gouge the head, chest, stomache, knee, leg. These may be the subject, object, etc. of the first two new lines. Chest is where the heart is, and for japanese, verb is the heart. Head is what makes you remember people, It may be the subject. Leg is what makes you stand up, It may be the sentence form. (?) Knee and stomache, no clues so far. "At the ninth twilight, the witch shall be revived and none shall be left alive." Beatrice was sleeping in the first two lines. But it may not necessarily be her. "the witch" shall be revived, which may refer to the part "my most beloved witch", or only "witch" in the new 2nd line. And by the remaining words, you should figure out what the epitaph is, and "The journey shall end and you should reach the village of gold.". However, the rewards may also mean something else. (Which probably they do) And I have no further silly reasonings for them. At least for now. ^^ I'm at university right now, couldn't think of an alternate way. But I found this as some interesting fact hopes it is correct Not really a Japanese expert, but I also figured out 陸 is a way to write both shore and six. (?) Last edited by Skullchukka; 2009-11-04 at 07:14.

2009-11-04, 08:45	Link #125
Christen Endless Nine Artist Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: In a certain tropical island Age: 38	The number 6 is amazingly all over the place. I've also been thinking that it might have a significance somewhere - Rokkenjima means Six Houses Island. If you want to push it, Rokken is 6 characters. - 六軒島 can be written as ろっけんじま or ロッケンジマ which consist of 6 characters as well. - 右代宮 's 右 is commonly read as みぎ. This makes 右代宮 convertible to 6 characters. - Kuwadorian is also 6 characters. __________________ Please watch where you post and tag your spoilers properly if it's allowed.

2009-11-04, 08:50	Link #126
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	I think "nine" is equally predominant in Umineko 'though. __________________

2009-11-04, 09:18	Link #127
Christen Endless Nine Artist Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: In a certain tropical island Age: 38	Incidentally, 6 and 9 are just upside down forms of each other. __________________ Please watch where you post and tag your spoilers properly if it's allowed.

2009-11-05, 21:24	Link #128
Smeckledorf Intellectual Rapist Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: 3 12151805142615	Does anyone have a screen shot of the epitaph as it was originally? I can't remember if there was ever a background of it in the visual novel. I was wondering about this because I thought sweet fish river would mean a clear river and since it went through the hometown then you could draw a line down to go to the next hint, but that is just a wild guess.

2009-11-10, 15:31	Link #131
Geekodot Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009	Well, im not too good at stuff like this, but going to post my thinking anyhow. Ok, the epitaph is divided into three parts: Spoiler for epitaph: My beloved hometown, the sweetfish river running through it. You who seek the Golden Land, follow its path downstream and seek the key. If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village. In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of. There sleeps the key to the Golden Land. __________________________________________________ ________ He who lays hand upon the key shall travel under the rules below. At the first twilight, you shall lift up as sacrifice the six chosen by the key. At the second twilight, those who remain shall tear apart the two who are close. At the third twilight, those who remain shall praise my honorable name on high. At the fourth twilight, gouge the head and kill. At the fifth twilight, gouge the chest and kill. At the sixth twilight, gouge the stomach and kill. At the seventh twilight, gouge the knee and kill. At the eighth twilight, gouge the leg and kill. At the ninth twilight, the witch shall be revived and none shall be left alive. At the tenth twilight, the journey shall end and you should reach the village of gold. __________________________________________________ ______ The witch will praise the wise, and should bestow four treasures. One shall be, all the gold from the Golden Land. One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead. One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love. One shall be, to put the witch to sleep for all time. Sleep peacefully, my most beloved witch, Beatrice. I did some epitaph thinking at school today and I believe that this part: Spoiler: My beloved hometown, the sweetfish river running through it. You who seek the Golden Land, follow its path downstream and seek the key. If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village. In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of. There sleeps the key to the Golden Land. is telling us the location of the key to the golden land. If we think of the gold and the Golden Land as the same thing, the key to the gold would be the epitaph... and in that case the hometown would be Rokkenjima, the river could be the path to the house and the house itself could be the village. The key would be the epitaph and when you finally stand there, you can start the riddle. Now the tools to get to the golden land is this passage: Spoiler: He who lays hand upon the key shall travel under the rules below. At the first twilight, you shall lift up as sacrifice the six chosen by the key. At the second twilight, those who remain shall tear apart the two who are close. At the third twilight, those who remain shall praise my honorable name on high. At the fourth twilight, gouge the head and kill. At the fifth twilight, gouge the chest and kill. At the sixth twilight, gouge the stomach and kill. At the seventh twilight, gouge the knee and kill. At the eighth twilight, gouge the leg and kill. At the ninth twilight, the witch shall be revived and none shall be left alive. At the tenth twilight, the journey shall end and you should reach the village of gold. I believe we are supposed to do with the epitaph as the twilights suggest. First, lets find the six chosen by the key... if the key is the epitaph, then there has to be something there is six of... How about the last part of the epitaph? It got six lines and now we are supposed to lift them up. I take that to mean lift them above the twilights part. In that case, the epitaph looks like this: Spoiler for new epitaph: My beloved hometown, the sweetfish river running through it. You who seek the Golden Land, follow its path downstream and seek the key. If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village. In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of. There sleeps the key to the Golden Land. The witch will praise the wise, and should bestow four treasures. One shall be, all the gold from the Golden Land. One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead. One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love. One shall be, to put the witch to sleep for all time. Sleep peacefully, my most beloved witch, Beatrice. __________________________________________________ ___ He who lays hand upon the key shall travel under the rules below. At the first twilight, you shall lift up as sacrifice the six chosen by the key. At the second twilight, those who remain shall tear apart the two who are close. At the third twilight, those who remain shall praise my honorable name on high. At the fourth twilight, gouge the head and kill. At the fifth twilight, gouge the chest and kill. At the sixth twilight, gouge the stomach and kill. At the seventh twilight, gouge the knee and kill. At the eighth twilight, gouge the leg and kill. At the ninth twilight, the witch shall be revived and none shall be left alive. At the tenth twilight, the journey shall end and you should reach the village of gold. Now we got two parts, the "riddle" and the "rules". For the second twilight, we are supposed to tear apart the two who are close from those who remain, that would be the two not among the rules as they are not part of the riddle anymore. There are two lines by themselves at the top, I think we are supposed to split them, however I am not sure by how much. I'm trying to tear them apart as much as possible. Spoiler: My beloved hometown, the sweetfish river running through it. If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village. In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of. There sleeps the key to the Golden Land. The witch will praise the wise, and should bestow four treasures. One shall be, all the gold from the Golden Land. One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead. One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love. One shall be, to put the witch to sleep for all time. Sleep peacefully, my most beloved witch, Beatrice. You who seek the Golden Land, follow its path downstream and seek the key. like this... and then we are supposed to praise the witch's name on high? That might mean moving the line about the witch's name to the top. Spoiler: Sleep peacefully, my most beloved witch, Beatrice. My beloved hometown, the sweetfish river running through it. If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village. In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of. There sleeps the key to the Golden Land. The witch will praise the wise, and should bestow four treasures. One shall be, all the gold from the Golden Land. One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead. One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love. One shall be, to put the witch to sleep for all time. You who seek the Golden Land, follow its path downstream and seek the key. Now, we got 2 parts with 5 lines each and one extra line at the bottom. That makes three parts. Now for the strange parts... how to gouge and kill? I interpret it like "gouging" them in between each other. Notice how the gougings tell you to gouge 5 bodyparts, first head, then chest, then stomach, then knee and last leg. From top to bottom! and to gouge that you need 5 stakes. I try "gouging" the 5 lines of the top part with the 5 lines of the bottom part: Spoiler: Sleep peacefully, my most beloved witch, Beatrice. The witch will praise the wise, and should bestow four treasures. My beloved hometown, the sweetfish river running through it. One shall be, all the gold from the Golden Land. If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village. One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead. In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of. One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love. There sleeps the key to the Golden Land. One shall be, to put the witch to sleep for all time. You who seek the Golden Land, follow its path downstream and seek the key. This is one way to do it. The gougings can however be done in lots of ways and even though this doesn't make much sense there might be something to get from reading it. It looks abit like if you look at the first part, that the hometown and Golden Land is referring to the same thing... and in the second part it talks about a village of the dead? In the village, there is a "shore" where the two of lost love would be and finally, the last part talks about the sleeping key to the golden land and how the witch will sleep for all time. Don't understand much about what this would mean though... Maybe it makes more sense for people who can read japanese? Spoiler for new riddle in japanese: 安らかに眠れ、我が最愛の魔女ベアトリーチェ。魔女は賢者を讃え、四つの宝を授けるだろう。懐かしき、故郷を貫く鮎の川。一つは、黄金郷の全ての黄金。川を下れば、やがて里あり。一つは、全ての死者の魂を蘇らせ。その里にて二人が口にし岸を探れ。一つは、失った愛すらも蘇らせる。そこに黄金郷への鍵が眠る。一つは、魔女を永遠に眠りにつかせよう。黄金郷を目指す者よ、これを下りて鍵を探せ。 Finally to wrap it up... I suck at this stuff, but I did what I thought the epitaph was telling me to do and it sort of looked like it could make some sort of sense in the end... if someone can read japanese, look it over and see if you can spot any new meanings or anything, will ya? xD

2009-11-10, 16:01	Link #132
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	You completely ignored the hints revealed in Episode3, is it because you think they aren't true? __________________

2009-11-12, 10:46	Link #134
Tabura Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: world...for now	This is one of my reject theories but it might just help someone solve it anyway... It's about the key part of the epitaph... I thought it might be possible that "my beloved homeland" means kuwadorian or atleast Rokkenjima since he did spend all the time he had with Beatrice here... By that theory the sweetfish river might be his family since when Eva sovled it it was mentioned that it's something like the family tree and it also satisfies the "sweetfish" part since as Hideyoshi said they go live out in the sea and then come back to the river they were born in. I think everything up to this point might just be true but this is where the "rejected" part begins: follow it's path downstream obviously means his offspring and there you find a village namely Maria pointing out which part of the family to look at. "the two will tell you off" probably refers to Rosa since "the shore" might just be the shore Beatrice died on when Rosa helped her escape. A good hint to this is also the fact that Rosa first tells this story in EP3 where Eva solves the riddle. Obviously Beatrice is "sleeping" there so she might be the key... In some way or another... That also explains why Eva needed an atlas... kinda. Post your thoughts on this but do remember this was already rejected so don't go in too deep.

2009-11-13, 20:48	Link #138
rogerpepitone Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	But she was named several years before he wrote the epitaph.

2009-11-14, 01:49	Link #139
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Doesn't mean he didn't have it in mind already. __________________