[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Leafsnail]

It looks like Erika and Bernkastel have something of a common goal regarding Ange, so it being a plot doesn't seem particularly unlikely (especially since Ange was kidnapped, dropped into the game and then suddenly saved by Erika using this loophole... I mean, if Erika was acting alone, what exactly would Bernkastel have been intending to do with Ange?).

As for the cheese... well, the puzzle specified that it was a special kind of cheese that you cannot break without a knife. Real world cheese has nothing to do with it.

[AuraTwilight]

If a piece is only capable of doing what it's master is capable of doing.....

Well for one thing that was never stated. Pieces are 'programmed' to follow their Master's desires, but that's entirely different.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Well for one thing that was never stated. Pieces are 'programmed' to follow their Master's desires, but that's entirely different.

Arguably, the whole deal with Featherine wanting Ange to choose her own ending in EP8 suggested that the master can allow the piece to just act freely according to its character if she prefers it that way. Sort of a distinction between "forcing" a story and letting it flow naturally. The piece's fundamental nature is still determined by the master, but it has free will within the borders of the story.

[AuraTwilight]

Right, but then the piece would be following the 'desire' of acting on it's own character. Regardless, Piece-ability is not equivalent to Master-ability or vice versa; Ange even pointed this out when she realized the original creator of the Beatrice character exists to do things she felt she could not do.

[UsagiTenpura]

"I wrote two endings, chose the one you want"
Doesn't that describe the whole extent of a piece's freedom?

[Renall]

Which is the more depressing scenario: A piece that struggles against the author's scheme, or an author who refuses to accept that a fully-formed character will act in her own way regardless of attempts to force her down another route?

Well, I suppose the real answer is "bad fan fiction" is the most depressing, at least where ep8 is concerned. On that, I'm not sure I can disagree with Ryukishi.

[cronnoponno]

I thought it was said during Dlanor's conversation with Battler after he kicked her ass with the Kinzo incident.


Although, they may have been referring to the real-world pieces of themselves, Dlanor told Battler that he could be assured that he deserved praise because he wouldn't have been capable of doing that if the Player Battler could not.


Also, when Ange told the seven sisters to kill her classmates, they said they could not obey because she couldn't do it herself, they then obeyed during the scene where Kasumi tried to assasinate her(which by reading the post that scene might have actually ended up in Ange dying or something different entirely happened).

Then again, you could probably argue that Erika is a special case, because she was just sort of picked up off the rocks apparently, like Lambda picked up Will and Lion after Bernkastel destroyed them.


Also, if you're talking about Yasu ''creating'' Beatrice, this is not the case. She did not ''create'' her, she ''became'' her, totally different(I'm not sure if that's what you meant though). When Gaap had the name Beatrice, she was not able to do magic unless she possessed Yasu's body, fantasy-speaking of course, the fact that she could do it in front of Yasu was because Yasu had integrated the tales of the Rokkenjima witch into her, so she became able to act on her own free will, but it was still related to Yasu's own clumsiness in forgetting where she left the broomstick.

A person can make their piece ''weaker'', and I'm not sure if the law applies/only applies to furniture as well, but if the master is not capable of doing it, they cannot do it themselves. Meaning, if Bernkastel was clearly dumb enough to make such an obvious loophole, Erika shouldn't have been smart enough to point it out on her own.

Or am I wrong? I was pretty sure this was the case.

[AuraTwilight]

I thought it was said during Dlanor's conversation with Battler after he kicked her ass with the Kinzo incident.


Although, they may have been referring to the real-world pieces of themselves, Dlanor told Battler that he could be assured that he deserved praise because he wouldn't have been capable of doing that if the Player Battler could not.

You're mixing things up. The two Battlers are the same 'character'; it's not comparable to Bernkastel and Erika, and Dlanor is speaking about how Pieces have to act 'in character'. Because Battler can be portrayed as so heroic and badass and smart, it's a compliment that implies that Battler can actually be that great.

Also, when Ange told the seven sisters to kill her classmates, they said they could not obey because she couldn't do it herself, they then obeyed during the scene where Kasumi tried to assasinate her(which by reading the post that scene might have actually ended up in Ange dying or something different entirely happened).

Your imaginary friends can't make anyone dead unless you pick up a gun and start going pow pow pow...

Apparently, though, Amakusa started sniping bitches and played right into Ange's fantasy incidentally.

Also, if you're talking about Yasu ''creating'' Beatrice, this is not the case. She did not ''create'' her, she ''became'' her, totally different(I'm not sure if that's what you meant though). When Gaap had the name Beatrice, she was not able to do magic unless she possessed Yasu's body, fantasy-speaking of course, the fact that she could do it in front of Yasu was because Yasu had integrated the tales of the Rokkenjima witch into her, so she became able to act on her own free will, but it was still related to Yasu's own clumsiness in forgetting where she left the broomstick.

It's really the same thing. Yasu took the Beatrice idea, gave it a personality and a face, then roleplayed as that character in order to make what she wanted happen. Theatre-acting and narrative writing aren't significantly different.

A person can make their piece ''weaker'', and I'm not sure if the law applies/only applies to furniture as well, but if the master is not capable of doing it, they cannot do it themselves. Meaning, if Bernkastel was clearly dumb enough to make such an obvious loophole, Erika shouldn't have been smart enough to point it out on her own.

Erika is written to be a genius; Bernkastel is not. The two are portrayed as separate entities, and even though Erika is subservient to Bernkastel, Erika is capable of expressing her own desires and making her own choices, such as when she chose to die in EP6 instead of suffering Bern's punishment.

[cronnoponno]

Spoiler for Length:

In other words, Erika can be seen in the same way Lion and Will can when they became Lambdadelta's pieces.

Keep in mind though, that I do realize Ange couldn't have her imaginary friends kill them unless she started going ''pow pow pow'', it's exactly the same with Gap-Beatrice taking over Yasu's body and doing ''magic'' over the key. I am just giving the Fantasy explanation, the realistic explanation already speaks for itself.

I am not saying that a piece's free will is impossible to have, but what you're basically saying is that a piece can help someone do their homework. If I didn't know what the square root of Pi was, how would my piece be able to do it?

Although it wouldn't be impossible to claim that Erika did become intelligent beyond what her master was capable of, as it's happened before. I guess that just falls back to being a devils proof.


Also, piece-Battler was made to act like Battler, but(I'm rereading the scene now) he said that ''that was not me'' and that ''Lambdadelta was controlling him''(Saying that to Dlanor after she thanked him for a good fight and his mercy, aka, Battler called his piece ''him''.).

Dlanor says:
''I am aware of that. However, pieces cannot do things that are impossible for THEM. And they specialize in actions appropriate to their original PERSONALITY. .......Therefore, that was certainly something that you....that Battler was capable of. That is why I am grateful to YOU.''

At the same time, Ange did not create the seven sisters of purgatory, yet they were still limited to her ability, so simply because Erika is different from Bernkafail doesn't mean that she can do things Bernkastel can't.


My only thought was that she was no longer her piece, and became able to eventually become better than her intellectually, still she seems to be Bernkastels piece. The evidence is just leaning towards Bernkastel having made this loophole on purpose.


Also, I just reread the EP 5 scene were Erika is introduced, you'll love this:

''With someone incompetent like you as the main character piece, the game wouldn't get anywhere. That's why I've placed myself there as a piece'' In fact, she claims that ''I'' solved the riddle of the epitaph. We also have piece Beatrice from the 5th game, who Natsuhi made, this piece did not know the truth of the 5th game, why? Because Natsuhi didn't.

Although I'm probably not getting anywhere with debating about this anymore. There's also the possiblity that Bernkastel was just using a metaphor. I'm also probably missing something here.

[AuraTwilight]

I am just giving the Fantasy explanation, the realistic explanation already speaks for itself.

The whole Piece business is more Meta than Fantasy. Fantasy is "IT'S MAGIC I AINT GOTTA EXPLAIN NUTTIN."

I am not saying that a piece's free will is impossible to have, but what you're basically saying is that a piece can help someone do their homework. If I didn't know what the square root of Pi was, how would my piece be able to do it?

Your piece calculates and understands what the square root of Pi is, and doesn't tell you.

At the same time, Ange did not create the seven sisters of purgatory, yet they were still limited to her ability, so simply because Erika is different from Bernkafail doesn't mean that she can do things Bernkastel can't.

You're comparing a piece's inability to perform a supernatural event to Erika being able to process information in her head. Stop and think about that; these aren't comparable circumstances.

My only thought was that she was no longer her piece, and became able to eventually become better than her intellectually, still she seems to be Bernkastels piece. The evidence is just leaning towards Bernkastel having made this loophole on purpose.

"Fine, but she won't be my piece. Anyone want to pick her up?"

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by cronnoponno

We also have piece Beatrice from the 5th game, who Natsuhi made, this piece did not know the truth of the 5th game, why? Because Natsuhi didn't.

You might be mistaking ownership and characterization here by the way. For EP1-4, Beatrice owned all the pieces of the game board, including Battler, but he let Meta-Battler move Piece-Battler. They were technically hers to put into play or take away. In EP5, Piece-Beatrice and the rest of the pieces were owned by Lambdadelta, and technically Bernkastel a bit since they were conspiring.

What Dlanor was talking about was the characterization of Piece-Battler which she claims must match Meta-Battler. Therefore she could treat them the same since she was complimenting character and ability. But at that time, Piece-Battler was clearly under Lambdadelta's control.


In regards to Erika, we're talking about EP8 here. Since EP6, certain pieces have been given more and more free reign, for example Piece-Beatrice being taken to Featherine's level in order to learn to behave like Meta-Beatrice so she could marry Meta-Battler... This is where Aura's argument of fantasy breaking down the rules starts to take place. I think that by EP8, it should be clear that Erika's behavior won't follow any piece-meta rules anymore...

(By the way, I believe this breakdown occurred in order to expose the Author as theorized in the Author Theory; which we now know is Tooya-Battler)

[Guido]

I don't know exactly if what the following I'm going to ask belongs specifically into this thread, but what I do know is that it pertains the other arcs (Chiru) of the games that have yet to be adapted into the anime.

Spoiler:

It's a question that most likely has been formulated over a 1000 times since the 7th and 8th games came out:

What does Yasu's real (physical) form looks like?

I read in some other forums out there that Yasu's physical form does Not necessarily conforms or looks the same as Lion's.

Is this true? or is it some kind of mumbo-jumbo meant to confuse the readers?

[immblueversion]

Originally Posted by Guido

I don't know exactly if what the following I'm going to ask belongs specifically into this thread, but what I do know is that it pertains the other arcs (Chiru) of the games that have yet to be adapted into the anime.

Spoiler:

It's a question that most likely has been formulated over a 1000 times since the 7th and 8th games came out:

What does Yasu's real (physical) form looks like?

I read in some other forums out there that Yasu's physical form does Not necessarily conforms or looks the same as Lion's.

Is this true? or is it some kind of mumbo-jumbo meant to confuse the readers?

Hey, don't forget the manga. That's bound to happen.

Spoiler:

Oh, and as for the voice, which is something I've brought up on my own, they'll most likely use Sayaka Ohara. After all, Yasu ends up becoming the Beato we know. This also means Clair would be played by Ohara as well.

[AuraTwilight]

Yasu most likely does not look like Lion if only because they went to good lengths to hide what Yasu looked like; on top of that, Lion's appearance is noticably a hodgepodge of Krauss, Natsuhi, or Jessica (which is impossible) and is described atleast once by Bern as being a "placeholder" appearance.

A good indication of this fact is that Yasu does not naturally have blonde hair, else she wouldn't have edited the Beatrice character to have "the golden hair that Battler likes."

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Yasu most likely does not look like Lion if only because they went to good lengths to hide what Yasu looked like; on top of that, Lion's appearance is noticably a hodgepodge of Krauss, Natsuhi, or Jessica (which is impossible) and is described atleast once by Bern as being a "placeholder" appearance.

A good indication of this fact is that Yasu does not naturally have blonde hair, else she wouldn't have edited the Beatrice character to have "the golden hair that Battler likes."

While I certainly agree with what you're saying (Lion's design being Krauss family + Androgny, put into a blender), point of order, everybody's hair color seems to be for the sake of design. Especially notable on some characters, like blonde Jessica, platinum Kyrie, GINGER-HAIRED Eva...

Though, I recently finished drawing all of the Umineko characters, and I thought "Maybe I should do a Yasu...?" Confuzzled for a course of action, I made Lion's hair black, placed his head on a flat-chested Shannon's body, and gave him Kanon's hat - a Frankenstein hodgepodge of my drawings of those characters. I'm ... not ... entirely displeased.

Also, a young Yasu can very briefly be seen during the Motion Graphic summarizing Requiem - she looks like a kid-Shannon, there, for whatever that's worth.

[Swigun]

Originally Posted by Kealym

Also, a young Yasu can very briefly be seen during the Motion Graphic summarizing Requiem - she looks like a kid-Shannon, there, for whatever that's worth.

That is kid-Shannon.

[AuraTwilight]

While I certainly agree with what you're saying (Lion's design being Krauss family + Androgny, put into a blender), point of order, everybody's hair color seems to be for the sake of design. Especially notable on some characters, like blonde Jessica, platinum Kyrie, GINGER-HAIRED Eva...

Well then my point still stands; it's not what Lion/Yasu looks like either way.

Though, I recently finished drawing all of the Umineko characters, and I thought "Maybe I should do a Yasu...?" Confuzzled for a course of action, I made Lion's hair black, placed his head on a flat-chested Shannon's body, and gave him Kanon's hat - a Frankenstein hodgepodge of my drawings of those characters. I'm ... not ... entirely displeased.

linkplz

Also, a young Yasu can very briefly be seen during the Motion Graphic summarizing Requiem - she looks like a kid-Shannon, there, for whatever that's worth.

The Motion Graphics aren't canon.

[Renall]

Granted, another part of the problem is that Ryukishi's art is... not great, and the anime style generally doesn't make family features so obvious that one could even tell who fathered whom. If Yasu were to in any way resemble Beatrice or any member of the Ushiromiya family, you'd expect him/her to have some matching traits. Not so obvious that Kinzo would notice (unless of course he did all along), not so obvious the siblings would think "huh, doesn't that servant kinda look like our kids?", but not completely different either. I was always under the impression that Shannon and Kanon's designs simply don't physically resemble the Ushiromiya family or Beatrice at all; or that if they do, Kanon is closer than Shannon is.

Suit-Beatrice could be an example of this license. No one immediately notices that Beatrice is just one of the servants in disguise, even though it shouldn't be possible to actually disguise oneself like that if one's face is left unchanged. On the other hand, if "real-life" Yasu looked a little bit like Beatrice in the first place, it's believable that that person could pose as Beatrice, and in R-Prime perhaps others would have noticed. It's just no one recognizes Beatrice-as-Yasu because, within the stories themselves, Yasu has chosen not to exist in that capacity.

Whether this means fast and loose literary substitution where desired or "my characters can all disguise as each other and nobody notices, I don't gotta explain shit" is another matter, but it really isn't that important.

[Leafsnail]

Suit-Beatrice could be an example of this license. No one immediately notices that Beatrice is just one of the servants in disguise, even though it shouldn't be possible to actually disguise oneself like that if one's face is left unchanged. On the other hand, if "real-life" Yasu looked a little bit like Beatrice in the first place, it's believable that that person could pose as Beatrice, and in R-Prime perhaps others would have noticed. It's just no one recognizes Beatrice-as-Yasu because, within the stories themselves, Yasu has chosen not to exist in that capacity.[/QUOTE]
It kindof depends how many people you think are "in on it", though. We have "blind" Maria seeing her for the first three episodes, Kyrie and Rosa in ep2 and Battler in ep4. It's not entirely impossible that Kyrie and Rosa are in on some kind of fake murder plot (bearing in mind Hideyoshi definitely was in ep1) and Battler only saw Beatrice from a pretty long way away (in the dark and rain).

...Alternatively, for Shkannon, on R-Prime everyone knows about it but didn't say anything because it's kindof cute and doesn't significantly affect Yasu's work output. George and Jessica in fact have a bet on which gender Yasu is (and who can work it out first). Obviously Yasu didn't realise so she wrote the tales as if s/he were a master of disguise.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

...Alternatively, for Shkannon, on R-Prime everyone knows about it but didn't say anything because it's kindof cute

I'm sure most people would think that's rather creepy.