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Skye629 · 2013-06-07, 14:53

Once again: Surrendering was not an option, as Orb would have lost whatever independence it had and become a ZAFT controlled state. What you are talking about is a ceasefire. Talia has pull yes, but she did not exercise any authority until the AA team showed up, and when the officer in charge of the operation died. If you did not notice they were sitting in the rear until the AA showed up

I KNOW that, you seem to have gone off track here, we are talking about when Kira came in to save Cagalli, abd was, as such, defending the new Orb government under Cagalli. We are not talking about when the invasion started, as it was obviously under the corrupt and incompetent Seirans

HELL NO, I have UTTER RESPECT for any person who lay down their lives for their country, even if I feel their countries stance is wrong. Like you, I also have/had relatives and friends in the armed forces. My issue with your comment was that you made them all seem innocent, which all are not. More like the Seirans brought the invasion on ORB lol, not many people seemed to happy with them by this point

Even if Orb got defeated quickly, there's not 100% garauntee they would have got Djibril, we are dealing with "WHAT IFs" here. The reason he was delaying was that he was waiting for the Seirans to launch the shuttle. Once that did not work out due to Cagalli and Co., he decided to launch on his own. If they did not show up, the Seirans and Djibril would have hightailed it the instant defeat was assured

As I noted before she ZERO authority, so contacting them at that point would have been pointless. When she obtained her authority, she was in a airspace fighting, and was promptly engaged by the Destiny shortly afterwards. It was only after Kira relieved her when she was able to go to the command center to actually start to take command of things. It was at this point they tried to contact the ZAFT commander, but it obviously failed. Refer to other's posts, Im not the only one debating here

No wonder you are not getting this part, you got completely sidetracked. The "maybe" insiders I was talking about referred to earlier comments about the ZAFTs (traitors?Insiders?) at ARMORY ONE, NOT ORB. Completely off topic, just drop this one now, as you apparently did not take time to read all my comments in context

Demonize? Im not, I never at any point said that their actions were wrong/negative. In fact, all their actions at Orb were appropriate given the Seirans response (which was more or less "Go F*** yourselves ZAFT) (other than Durandal's real intentions to conquer Orb, which was known to but a few). My whole reason for starting this debate, was against your bias against Kira and Co. by pointing out facts and/or possible flaws in your logic (and please do note I am not doing any of this to offend you, you have your rights to your own opinions and interpretations)

Typo, I take that part back then.

Refer to above about my "demonizations", the only problems I have against ZAFT is Durandal, who was obviously the main villian since the start

Heres my problem with your interpretation of Kira and Co. "letting Djibril go". You make it sound like they let him waltz out the door on purpose in plain view, and that their INTENTIONS from the start was to save him, which was clearly not the case. A more accurate summary of the situation is "Due to Kira's and Co. interventions to save Orb, they unintentionally (as a side effect) let Djibril escape" (which is by all means still a F*** up). This makes sense as Cagalli took what measures she could to find him after Kira and the AA covered for her. However due to the chaotic nature of any battle, the mess the Seirans left Orb in (which cagalli also had to deal with), and Cagalli interfering with his launch plans, Djibril was able to use the opportunity to escape alone (and conveniently at this time the Minerva and the AA were tied up with each other). Another thing of note was that plot armor was also on his side, as they had to move things to space

Now as for that last sentence. You apparently did not read my previous posts, and others about your so perceived "god complex", AND my reasons for why Kira and Co. could not go after him following the Orb Battle. Go back and read those.

Skye629 · 2013-06-07, 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by The American Average

YouTube

https://youtu.be/QEpAO7bF8i8

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Behold Dearka's shirt in hd remaster

Sorry for double posting, but my recent posts have been way too long, I dont want to hurt people's eyes reading unrelated stuff so I made two posts

Gah, the Remaster comment page aren't the same entertaining affair anymore since that SEEDSUCKSIT guy was banned, now its just the same person who seems to be a broken tape recorder about the series ending in episode 34 with THE SWORD CRASH OF DOOM.

GIVE ME BACK THE ENTERTAINING SEED DESTINY COMMENT PAGES

Aquaman OS · 2013-06-07, 15:52

If anything Kira is far to nice for his own good. He'd have been much better off if he'd for example, let Minerva wipe out the Orb fleet (Yuna would be dead, Zaft would have no legitamate reason to attack him later, and they could go back to Orb with nobody to really question Cagalli taking over since Yuna just got himself and most of their fleet killed) but that would cause Orb forces to die to he interfered despite knowing it wouldn't work.

He'd have been better off letting Berlin burn and going back to Orb unmolested by Zaft as they got no credit and only Shinn's ire, while Destroy Neo and Sting would have easily killed Shinn without backup, depriving Durandal of his super solider. But that would mean innocent people would be killed, so he went to try to save them.

He'd have been better off if he'd just killed Shinn in the many many chances to kill him he had and didn't take. But Kira only kills sparingly and thought Shinn didn't deserve it.

It's also hard to say Kira is doing things all wrong when....He's right.

He thinks Durandal is out to get them, but Durandal is.

He thinks Durandal has a scheme despite his seemingly peaceful demeanor and he does.

He thinks Durandal will kill anyone who won't submit to him, and by all indiciations he will. Rey even tells Shinn that he should be willing to kill anyone and everyone simply on Durandal's word alone.

The American Average · 2013-06-07, 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye629

Gah, the Remaster comment page aren't the same entertaining affair anymore since that SEEDSUCKSIT guy was banned, now its just the same person who seems to be a broken tape recorder about the series ending in episode 34 with THE SWORD CRASH OF DOOM.

GIVE ME BACK THE ENTERTAINING SEED DESTINY COMMENT PAGES

I know that "THE SWORD CRASH OF DOOM" guy is a real idiot. at times i think the troll aren't even trying anymore, at times trolls can be funny and entertaining but still make you think and go hmm it sorta has a point. Copy and past comments from the last episode comment are no fun at all.

well whatever Tsundere Yzak is always fun to watch, too bad Yzak had like.... 4 episodes

georgedu · 2013-06-07, 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye629

Of course he had to reason to hate Neo during the battle, Im talking about BEFORE, Neo was obviously responsible for her (Also like I previously noted, he obviously suppressed/forgot any feelings towards Neo due to the promise they made). Other thoughts during the Berlin battle obviously took priorities (what to do now Stella was on the battlefield, then Kira killing her) Also Neo got shot down on top of all this, so he became inconsequential to Shinn by this fact, and the fact that Kira killing Stella was obviously on the top of his mind all the way till the end of Angel Down

Everyone in this world is biased based on the information we know, and consider relevant, Im not about to go emphasize with some faceless person, especially if they were trying to kill me. Shinn KNEW Stella, as such it was easier for him to emphasize with her, as they actually came into contact, plus what Shinn found out at the extended facility they came across. Sting and Auel were faceless nobodies to him

Not necessarily traitors, they could have been inside ppl planted there at some random point in time :P
Also the proper term for these guys are Extended, while in SEED the druggies were extended, this time there are no drugs (as the instability due to the drugs was obviously recognized as a liability)

1. Your first sentence just proved my point that Shinn

was being retarded.

2.Even if I accept your "Other thoughts" sentence, explain why he had no hatred against Neo AFTER the battle
3. WE

know that Neo was shot down, SHINN

did not know where Neo went after the battle and could easily assume he is still "alive".

4. In all of the thoughts Shinn

had while holding Stellar in his hands right before he put her into that lake, not one was the scene with the promise he made with Neo and everything was happy moments with Stellar and then hate against Kira.
5. As i already said, My point was that Shinn

had no hatred against Neo even AFTER the battle -.-...............................

georgedu · 2013-06-07, 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

If anything Kira is far to nice for his own good. He'd have been much better off if he'd for example, let Minerva wipe out the Orb fleet (Yuna would be dead, Zaft would have no legitamate reason to attack him later, and they could go back to Orb with nobody to really question Cagalli taking over since Yuna just got himself and most of their fleet killed) but that would cause Orb forces to die to he interfered despite knowing it wouldn't work.

He'd have been better off letting Berlin burn and going back to Orb unmolested by Zaft as they got no credit and only Shinn's ire, while Destroy Neo and Sting would have easily killed Shinn without backup, depriving Durandal of his super solider. But that would mean innocent people would be killed, so he went to try to save them.

He'd have been better off if he'd just killed Shinn in the many many chances to kill him he had and didn't take. But Kira only kills sparingly and thought Shinn didn't deserve it.

It's also hard to say Kira is doing things all wrong when....He's right.

He thinks Durandal is out to get them, but Durandal is.

He thinks Durandal has a scheme despite his seemingly peaceful demeanor and he does.

He thinks Durandal will kill anyone who won't submit to him, and by all indiciations he will. Rey even tells Shinn that he should be willing to kill anyone and everyone simply on Durandal's word alone.

Agreed mostly but he has a no-kill policy, thats why he didn't kill Shinn......
Rey becomes a good guy in the end, he shot Durandal

Aquaman OS · 2013-06-07, 16:41

Shinn actually did see Neo shot down. He even reacts to it in a "Oh boy Stella's not gonna like that" way. And then that was it. He never heard from him again. He never saw AA pick him up (and has no reason to assume they would, he had no idea of their history) and he never came up as a Logos prisoner. Ie, Shinn thinks he died there. He never encountered Neo in the final battle.

So as far as Shinn is concerned Neo's paid for what he did, while Freedom was still an available target. (of course hating him at all when it was something that couldn't be helped is something that Shinn is wrong about, but Shinn's never have a open minded unbiased view of anyone) Plus Neo never really had other interaction with Shinn, while Shinn's hated Freedom ever since it first started popping up, this only made it worse.

georgedu · 2013-06-07, 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye629

Once again: Surrendering was not an option, as Orb would have lost whatever independence it had and become a ZAFT controlled state. What you are talking about is a ceasefire. Talia has pull yes, but she did not exercise any authority until the AA team showed up, and when the officer in charge of the operation died. If you did not notice they were sitting in the rear until the AA showed up

I KNOW that, you seem to have gone off track here, we are talking about when Kira came in to save Cagalli, abd was, as such, defending the new Orb government under Cagalli. We are not talking about when the invasion started, as it was obviously under the corrupt and incompetent Seirans

HELL NO, I have UTTER RESPECT for any person who lay down their lives for their country, even if I feel their countries stance is wrong. Like you, I also have/had relatives and friends in the armed forces. My issue with your comment was that you made them all seem innocent, which all are not. More like the Seirans brought the invasion on ORB lol, not many people seemed to happy with them by this point

Even if Orb got defeated quickly, there's not 100% garauntee they would have got Djibril, we are dealing with "WHAT IFs" here. The reason he was delaying was that he was waiting for the Seirans to launch the shuttle. Once that did not work out due to Cagalli and Co., he decided to launch on his own. If they did not show up, the Seirans and Djibril would have hightailed it the instant defeat was assured

As I noted before she ZERO authority, so contacting them at that point would have been pointless. When she obtained her authority, she was in a airspace fighting, and was promptly engaged by the Destiny shortly afterwards. It was only after Kira relieved her when she was able to go to the command center to actually start to take command of things. It was at this point they tried to contact the ZAFT commander, but it obviously failed. Refer to other's posts, Im not the only one debating here

No wonder you are not getting this part, you got completely sidetracked. The "maybe" insiders I was talking about referred to earlier comments about the ZAFTs (traitors?Insiders?) at ARMORY ONE, NOT ORB. Completely off topic, just drop this one now, as you apparently did not take time to read all my comments in context

Demonize? Im not, I never at any point said that their actions were wrong/negative. In fact, all their actions at Orb were appropriate given the Seirans response (which was more or less "Go F*** yourselves ZAFT) (other than Durandal's real intentions to conquer Orb, which was known to but a few). My whole reason for starting this debate, was against your bias against Kira and Co. by pointing out facts and/or possible flaws in your logic (and please do note I am not doing any of this to offend you, you have your rights to your own opinions and interpretations)

Typo, I take that part back then.

Refer to above about my "demonizations", the only problems I have against ZAFT is Durandal, who was obviously the main villian since the start

Heres my problem with your interpretation of Kira and Co. "letting Djibril go". You make it sound like they let him waltz out the door on purpose in plain view, and that their INTENTIONS from the start was to save him, which was clearly not the case. A more accurate summary of the situation is "Due to Kira's and Co. interventions to save Orb, they unintentionally (as a side effect) let Djibril escape" (which is by all means still a F*** up). This makes sense as Cagalli took what measures she could to find him after Kira and the AA covered for her. However due to the chaotic nature of any battle, the mess the Seirans left Orb in (which cagalli also had to deal with), and Cagalli interfering with his launch plans, Djibril was able to use the opportunity to escape alone (and conveniently at this time the Minerva and the AA were tied up with each other). Another thing of note was that plot armor was also on his side, as they had to move things to space

Now as for that last sentence. You apparently did not read my previous posts, and others about your so perceived "god complex", AND my reasons for why Kira and Co. could not go after him following the Orb Battle. Go back and read those.

Don't forget the fact that the Impulse controlled by Luminaria couldn't shoot it down..... which was literally bullsht because it shows all her beams being like 2 inches away from hitting the "Escape shuttle" and then she just watches it go into space, (My thoughts while watching, "CHASE THAT FKING SHUTTLE AND SEISMIC TOSS THAT PIECE OF SHT."

Aquaman OS · 2013-06-07, 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by georgedu

Agreed mostly but he has a no-kill policy, thats why he didn't kill Shinn......
Rey becomes a good guy in the end, he shot Durandal

So was Shinn becoming a "good" guy in the end. That doesn't mean he wasn't wrong for doing what he did when he was serving Durandal. Likewise Kira might have gotten through to Rey, but Rey still framed Athrun, tried to kill him, and was ready to kill everyone and anyone that didn't submit to the Destiny Plan.

In fact I'd argue Rey is worse than Shinn. Shinn was just a poor fool manipulated and played into what he was doing. Rey was in on the plan and supported it from the start, even if he changed his mind in the end.

georgedu · 2013-06-07, 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Shinn actually did see Neo shot down. He even reacts to it in a "Oh boy Stella's not gonna like that" way. And then that was it. He never heard from him again. He never saw AA pick him up (and has no reason to assume they would, he had no idea of their history) and he never came up as a Logos prisoner. Ie, Shinn thinks he died there. He never encountered Neo in the final battle.

So as far as Shinn is concerned Neo's paid for what he did, while Freedom was still an available target. (of course hating him at all when it was something that couldn't be helped is something that Shinn is wrong about, but Shinn's never have a open minded unbiased view of anyone) Plus Neo never really had other interaction with Shinn, while Shinn's hated Freedom ever since it first started popping up, this only made it worse.

I'm pretty sure Shinn didn't see Neo get shutdown.......

Aquaman OS · 2013-06-07, 16:48

Yes he did he was right there. He clearly is shown seeing it.

Destined_Fate · 2013-06-07, 19:03

That's quite sad you respect someone that would murder innocents because of supposed duty to their country even if the current leaders merely pulled a coup to obtain power when they kicked out Cagalli and ordered her killed. Kira was in the wrong, if anything he owed it to his country to set things right and to try and stop the fighting. Kira didn't do that. Instead he defended the corrupt Country and attacked ZAFT/Feds who made it quite clear they were ONLY invading because ORB refused to hand over Djibril who wasn't even an ORB native anyway.

There is a 99.9999999+% chance that would have had Cagalli, Kira, and co. didn't get in ZAFT/Feds way as Djibil only managed to escape due to the time Cagalli, Kira, and co. bought him as well as distracting the enemy forces away from him so that he wouldn't have been shot down. Even though it was hopeless to stop the shuttle after it was well off in its launch at least Lunamaria tried to stop him while Kira just floated around with a confused look on his face.

Once again, Cagalli didn't even try to let the other side know of her intentions and the moment she regained power she did what she did when she arrived back at ORB - Attack ZAFT/Feds. Thus they had no reason to trust her as she was actively attacking them whenever she could.

I will ignore your arrogance here.

That's the thing, you refuse to admit that Kira and Cagalli screwed up big time in Destiny with the Battle of ORB being Cagalli's biggest screw up. She handled the situation completely wrong which allowed Djibril to escape and left ORB in ruins. And no you aren't pointing out the facts are you keep trying to throw excuses for them at places like the Battle of ORB when they had no excuse for their actions there. Kira wanted to play God by taking the stance that "HE" was right and everyone else that didn't agree with him was wrong.

Facts are facts, Kira and co. defended ORB and wasted Fed/ZAFT/ORB resources by prolonging the battle and giving Djibril an opening to escape. To make matters worse Kira thought nothing of it and not once did they even attempt to hunt down Djibril after the Battle of ORB even as Djibril was seeing how many more war crimes he could commit.

Doesn't change a thing, they didn't even try nor did they care as Djibril was still at large. In the end Shinn, Rey, and Lunamaria had to take out Logos once and for all because they were the only ones that cared enough to stop that mad man while Kira and co. waited til they gained the strength to kill Durandal because Kira had a different plan on what Humanity wanted and didn't want.

Aquaman OS · 2013-06-07, 19:24

Well since you've ignored me pointing out Cagalli tried for a cease fire twice, I guess you're just trolling, or that desperate for a reason for Shinn and Durandal to be right that you're ignoring it.

Skye629 · 2013-06-07, 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

If anything Kira is far to nice for his own good. He'd have been much better off if he'd for example, let Minerva wipe out the Orb fleet (Yuna would be dead, Zaft would have no legitamate reason to attack him later, and they could go back to Orb with nobody to really question Cagalli taking over since Yuna just got himself and most of their fleet killed) but that would cause Orb forces to die to he interfered despite knowing it wouldn't work.

He'd have been better off letting Berlin burn and going back to Orb unmolested by Zaft as they got no credit and only Shinn's ire, while Destroy Neo and Sting would have easily killed Shinn without backup, depriving Durandal of his super solider. But that would mean innocent people would be killed, so he went to try to save them.

He'd have been better off if he'd just killed Shinn in the many many chances to kill him he had and didn't take. But Kira only kills sparingly and thought Shinn didn't deserve it.

It's also hard to say Kira is doing things all wrong when....He's right.

He thinks Durandal is out to get them, but Durandal is.
He thinks Durandal has a scheme despite his seemingly peaceful demeanor and he does.
He thinks Durandal will kill anyone who won't submit to him, and by all indiciations he will. Rey even tells Shinn that he should be willing to kill anyone and everyone simply on Durandal's word alone.

Yes he is too damn nice for his own good, BUT I would not call what he's doing wrong or right, thats completely subjective

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

That's quite sad you respect someone that would murder innocents because of supposed duty to their country even if the current leaders merely pulled a coup to obtain power when they kicked out Cagalli and ordered her killed. Kira was in the wrong, if anything he owed it to his country to set things right and to try and stop the fighting. Kira didn't do that. Instead he defended the corrupt Country and attacked ZAFT/Feds who made it quite clear they were ONLY invading because ORB refused to hand over Djibril who wasn't even an ORB native anyway.

Where the hell did I say I respected Kira? I dont, I think hes a wuss. Once again not everyone in war is innocent so dont make it sound like Kira was slaughtering innocent people, heck most of the evidence is against that as he avoided killing shots for the most part. They never ordered for Cagalli to be killed until Yuna called her out for a fake, and even then he did a complete 360 when she showed up at orb.

I cant believe you dont get the part that he WAS NOT defending a corrupt country, as by that point, it was not (as it was in Cagalli's hands). Should I draw a timeline for you? With the clearly colored parts showing when who was in power in Orb? They WERE NOT only invading for Djibril, that was their main (and announced) purpose yes, but Durandal also had his plans to take Orb, stop ignoring this. Me AND others have pointed this out. Doesnt matter if Djibril is a native or not, the Seirans threw their lot in with him and that was that

There is a 99.9999999+% chance that would have had Cagalli, Kira, and co. didn't get in ZAFT/Feds way as Djibil only managed to escape due to the time Cagalli, Kira, and co. bought him as well as distracting the enemy forces away from him so that he wouldn't have been shot down. Even though it was hopeless to stop the shuttle after it was well off in its launch at least Lunamaria tried to stop him while Kira just floated around with a confused look on his face.

You completely, once again, ignored the information I brought up about Djibrils plans to escape. Kira couldnt chase the shuttle, he was in a different area and fighting, he couldnt have done anything, period. Luna on the other hand was in a position to launch directly to and chase the shuttle. By your logic of Kira doing nothing at this part, then Rey and Shinn should have done something as well as they were "floating around with a confused look on their faces"

Once again, Cagalli didn't even try to let the other side know of her intentions and the moment she regained power she did what she did when she arrived back at ORB - Attack ZAFT/Feds. Thus they had no reason to trust her as she was actively attacking them whenever she could.

Explained this time and again....sigh. It doenst even matter if she did or did not make contact (which she did) as the ZAFT in command was against any talks

I will ignore your arrogance here.

Arrogance? Not too sure which paragraph you are talking about, if you dont mind quoting so I can take a look.....

That's the thing, you refuse to admit that Kira and Cagalli screwed up big time in Destiny with the Battle of ORB being Cagalli's biggest screw up. She handled the situation completely wrong which allowed Djibril to escape and left ORB in ruins. And no you aren't pointing out the facts are you keep trying to throw excuses for them at places like the Battle of ORB when they had no excuse for their actions there. Kira wanted to play God by taking the stance that "HE" was right and everyone else that didn't agree with him was wrong.

Yes they did fail, the only thing they accomplished was the prevention of the complete takeover and destruction of ORB. Im not refusing that they messed up letting Djibril escape as a side effect of their interventions, it just that im arguing for something else entirely from the very start, and this whole conversation have been sidetracked along the way.

Please do tell how Cagalli could have done anything better. She could not open communication/talks due to her position at first, then the ZAFT officer refusing. She could not surrender as everything would have then belonged to ZAFT. Her only option was to stall ZAFT while searching for Djibril, whom it was obvious they were gonna hand over to get ZAFT to go away (which obviously failed due to Seiran loyalists)

Call my facts excuses all you want, but these events did happen, and there is plenty of rationale behind my thoughts. You do realize that Kira does NOT have a god complex right? He never said what ZAFT was doing during the Orb battle was wrong, the only thing he ever openly said was "wrong" was the Destiny Plan, as it opposed his views (which everyone have a right to say, you are not about to just let someone decide things for you right?). I will also once again reiterate that thinking you are right and everyone else is wrong DOES NOT constitute a God complex, its called an OPINION, here is what "I" think about "X" topic

Facts are facts, Kira and co. defended ORB and wasted Fed/ZAFT/ORB resources by prolonging the battle and giving Djibril an opening to escape. To make matters worse Kira thought nothing of it and not once did they even attempt to hunt down Djibril after the Battle of ORB even as Djibril was seeing how many more war crimes he could commit.

Check my previous post, I more or less exactly said that above bolded part in my rewording paragraph. Aside from that Djibril was only high on their priorities during the battle, as handing him over would have ended it. And if you think every single person on earth/space had to prioritize him, then thats wrong. What if I called you out for doing nothing while people like Kim Jong Un are out there taking advantage of innocent people? Not everyone have to feel obligated to get Djibril. Orbs priorities after the battle was to restabilize, and rightfully so

Doesn't change a thing, they didn't even try nor did they care as Djibril was still at large. In the end Shinn, Rey, and Lunamaria had to take out Logos once and for all because they were the only ones that cared enough to stop that mad man while Kira and co. waited til they gained the strength to kill Durandal because Kira had a different plan on what Humanity wanted and didn't want.

They did try, as you saw in Cagalli's efforts. After the battle of course they didnt care, because if was pretty clear ZAFT would have still gone after him. Why waste their time when ZAFT would already do the job? And not like Durandal cared, it was in his, and ZAFTs, benefit if they were the ones to rid the world of Djibril and Logos (thus generating more support)

So your whole logic is that Kira is wrong, JUST from having a DIFFERENT opinion from Durandal? WTH man? Is everyone wrong just because they disagree/have different views about something? Everyone is entitled to believe that their beliefs are right, and judge others beliefs based on what they think. This in no way gives someone a god complex. By your views, that gives both of us, and most of the world, a god complex for having opinions

Honestly, you are putting WAY too much much emphasis on Djibril, which was never the focus of this topic

In the end, lets just agree to disagree, as we can both (I hope), see that this is going nowhere, with many points left unaddressed, and opinions playing a huge factor in both of our arguments. With facts being ignored on both sides. Also with the amount of typing I did I could have finished one of my essays XD. And lastly, I have NO, I repeat, ZERO, hard feelings towards you. Feel free to bring this whole subject back up with me though when we get to this point in the Remaster

Destined_Fate · 2013-06-07, 20:29

Kira rendering mobile suits inoperable doesn't mean his hands are clean when another person finishes the job in his stead. People that go to war and are afraid to pull the trigger aren't better than those that do, Kira caused a lot of deaths as he left them unable to defend themselves thus making them easy pickings. Or are you saying that ORB didn't shoot down those Kira disabled in Destiny? They would be foolish for not, Kira cannot claim innocence for their deaths.

Yes, Kira was in fact defending a corrupt ORB. Whether Cagalli was successful or not he was already going to fight ZAFT/Feds. He only cared that they were invading ORB and didn't care at all that ORB brought it upon their selves because of their poor choices.

False, Djibril was not going to escape if ZAFT/Feds weren't being held back by ORB/Cagalli's Renegade Faction/Kira Faction. Hell the Archangel stopped the Minerva from making any real ground after it appeared. Fact of the matter is that Djibril escaped because of Kira's interference, that cannot be refuted. Shinn and Rey were busy trying to take out Kira, furthermore Kira's Strike Freedom had Beam Spam it refused to use. Kira should have at least tried as he was the only one in that area that had a chance of stopping Djibril as the Freedom was a true long range mecha while the Legend relied more upon its DRAGOONs which only worked in space.

Your explanation was flawed, Cagalli didn't once try to explain the situation and went, like Kira, for a Shoot First and Don't Explain Yourself Ever stance.

I already explained what she would have done. She should have contacted ZAFT/Feds on a Global Channel the moment she could and explain the situation about ORB and her plans to retake ORB from Yuna. Instead she decided that talking is dumb and came in guns ablazing than she was wondering why after she regained power that ZAFT/Feds didn't want anything to do with her as she was firing at them still.

Yes Kira DOES have a God Complex. He believes what he wants is always right and nevre once apologizes in Destiny for all the BS he pulls. He even had Athrun hating on him because of his dumb actions after he became a rogue faction and decided to play God by attacking both sides for being guilty as they weren't listening to him and only him.

ORB was only in that state because of Yuna, Cagalli, and Kira's actions that spilled over finally at the Battle of ORB. Furthermore the Archangel was far from completely wrecked and Lacus had allies in space as well as the means to get them back into space with her vast resources. They quite simply didn't want to stop Djibril and were more concerned about taking our Durandal even if it meant letting Djibril run free to murder thousands more. Hell Kira doesn't even feel remorseful for Djibril's escape and never expresses a desire to stop Djibril.

Thus you give them an excuse for not even trying because "someone else" might be able to do the job. That's sad. If everyone lived by that saying than no one would ever go after murderers or the such as "someone else" might do it instead so they don't have to left a finger. Which is EXACTLY the stance Kira and co. took which shows they didn't care at all about what Djibril was doing as he wasn't worth their time and those he later kills clearly weren't worth the energy to save hence why Kira and co. sat on their rears the entire time.

Kira decided he was going to kill Durandal and had planned to take him out personally for some time. The only reason Kira oppossed Durandal early on is because he didn't agree with Durandal. It's only later that Durandal is made true evil and does evil things so that Kira is now "justified" in trying to take out Durandal from the start.

You're putting too little. Djibril was a main player in Destiny and all the blood on his hands after the Battle of ORB are on Kira and co's hands too as they allowed him to escape and let him do as he wanted until the Alliance finally hunted him down.

Aquaman OS · 2013-06-07, 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Kira rendering mobile suits inoperable doesn't mean his hands are clean when another person finishes the job in his stead. People that go to war and are afraid to pull the trigger aren't better than those that do, Kira caused a lot of deaths as he left them unable to defend themselves thus making them easy pickings. Or are you saying that ORB didn't shoot down those Kira disabled in Destiny? They would be foolish for not, Kira cannot claim innocence for their deaths.

List of guys disabled by Kira and not killed in the aftermath: Athrun, Stella (first time), Auel, Shinn, Neo, Rey, Sting. All the Orb and EA forces disabled in episode 23 (Neo says in episode 24 that everyone disabled by Freedom on their side was unhurt)

List of guys disabled by Kira and killed afterwards: Heine. Baba (and he kamikazed himself so he doesn't count.

All this "Everyone Kira disables still dies" crap is BS. It's WELL established in series, and in Data books that his no casualty rate is near perfect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye629

Yes he is too damn nice for his own good, BUT I would not call what he's doing wrong or right, thats completely subjective

He's totally in the right for opposing Durandal. Durandal wanted them all dead so he could pretend Meer was Lacus, and so they couldn't oppose him when he brought out the Destiny Plan after he was done with his war.

georgedu · 2013-06-07, 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

List of guys disabled by Kira and not killed in the aftermath: Athrun, Stella (first time), Auel, Shinn, Neo, Rey, Sting. All the Orb and EA forces disabled in episode 23 (Neo says in episode 24 that everyone disabled by Freedom on their side was unhurt)

List of guys disabled by Kira and killed afterwards: Heine. Baba (and he kamikazed himself so he doesn't count.

All this "Everyone Kira disables still dies" crap is BS. It's WELL established in series, and in Data books that his no casualty rate is near perfect.

Heine wasn't disabled by Kira actually, Kira only took out one of his weapons(the electrical whip) and I'm pretty sure he had plenty of other weapons , Heines just a noob

Aquaman OS · 2013-06-07, 20:53

He still "Damaged" him and people blame Kira for his death. And rather than argue I'll give them that, because his record is otherwise flawless.

georgedu · 2013-06-07, 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

He's totally in the right for opposing Durandal. Durandal wanted them all dead so he could pretend Meer was Lacus, and so they couldn't oppose him when he brought out the Destiny Plan after he was done with his war.

Thing is, Kira wasn't sure if it was Durandal or ZAFT rebels that tried to take them out, so he wasn't sure if he was making the right decision till he found out about the destiny plan.

Skye629 · 2013-06-07, 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

He's totally in the right for opposing Durandal. Durandal wanted them all dead so he could pretend Meer was Lacus, and so they couldn't oppose him when he brought out the Destiny Plan after he was done with his war.

Hes only "right" as he had the right to oppose someone who wanted to kill him and the people he cared for

As for the other things like the Destiny Plan, right and wrong becomes completely subjective :P

Ugh, I just regained some of my senses, why the hell am I even discussing this POS show?

2013-06-07, 19:03	Link #7532
Destined_Fate Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."	That's quite sad you respect someone that would murder innocents because of supposed duty to their country even if the current leaders merely pulled a coup to obtain power when they kicked out Cagalli and ordered her killed. Kira was in the wrong, if anything he owed it to his country to set things right and to try and stop the fighting. Kira didn't do that. Instead he defended the corrupt Country and attacked ZAFT/Feds who made it quite clear they were ONLY invading because ORB refused to hand over Djibril who wasn't even an ORB native anyway. There is a 99.9999999+% chance that would have had Cagalli, Kira, and co. didn't get in ZAFT/Feds way as Djibil only managed to escape due to the time Cagalli, Kira, and co. bought him as well as distracting the enemy forces away from him so that he wouldn't have been shot down. Even though it was hopeless to stop the shuttle after it was well off in its launch at least Lunamaria tried to stop him while Kira just floated around with a confused look on his face. Once again, Cagalli didn't even try to let the other side know of her intentions and the moment she regained power she did what she did when she arrived back at ORB - Attack ZAFT/Feds. Thus they had no reason to trust her as she was actively attacking them whenever she could. I will ignore your arrogance here. That's the thing, you refuse to admit that Kira and Cagalli screwed up big time in Destiny with the Battle of ORB being Cagalli's biggest screw up. She handled the situation completely wrong which allowed Djibril to escape and left ORB in ruins. And no you aren't pointing out the facts are you keep trying to throw excuses for them at places like the Battle of ORB when they had no excuse for their actions there. Kira wanted to play God by taking the stance that "HE" was right and everyone else that didn't agree with him was wrong. Facts are facts, Kira and co. defended ORB and wasted Fed/ZAFT/ORB resources by prolonging the battle and giving Djibril an opening to escape. To make matters worse Kira thought nothing of it and not once did they even attempt to hunt down Djibril after the Battle of ORB even as Djibril was seeing how many more war crimes he could commit. Doesn't change a thing, they didn't even try nor did they care as Djibril was still at large. In the end Shinn, Rey, and Lunamaria had to take out Logos once and for all because they were the only ones that cared enough to stop that mad man while Kira and co. waited til they gained the strength to kill Durandal because Kira had a different plan on what Humanity wanted and didn't want. Last edited by Daniel E.; 2013-06-07 at 21:48.

2013-06-07, 14:53	Link #7521
Skye629 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011	Once again: Surrendering was not an option, as Orb would have lost whatever independence it had and become a ZAFT controlled state. What you are talking about is a ceasefire. Talia has pull yes, but she did not exercise any authority until the AA team showed up, and when the officer in charge of the operation died. If you did not notice they were sitting in the rear until the AA showed up I KNOW that, you seem to have gone off track here, we are talking about when Kira came in to save Cagalli, abd was, as such, defending the new Orb government under Cagalli. We are not talking about when the invasion started, as it was obviously under the corrupt and incompetent Seirans HELL NO, I have UTTER RESPECT for any person who lay down their lives for their country, even if I feel their countries stance is wrong. Like you, I also have/had relatives and friends in the armed forces. My issue with your comment was that you made them all seem innocent, which all are not. More like the Seirans brought the invasion on ORB lol, not many people seemed to happy with them by this point Even if Orb got defeated quickly, there's not 100% garauntee they would have got Djibril, we are dealing with "WHAT IFs" here. The reason he was delaying was that he was waiting for the Seirans to launch the shuttle. Once that did not work out due to Cagalli and Co., he decided to launch on his own. If they did not show up, the Seirans and Djibril would have hightailed it the instant defeat was assured As I noted before she ZERO authority, so contacting them at that point would have been pointless. When she obtained her authority, she was in a airspace fighting, and was promptly engaged by the Destiny shortly afterwards. It was only after Kira relieved her when she was able to go to the command center to actually start to take command of things. It was at this point they tried to contact the ZAFT commander, but it obviously failed. Refer to other's posts, Im not the only one debating here No wonder you are not getting this part, you got completely sidetracked. The "maybe" insiders I was talking about referred to earlier comments about the ZAFTs (traitors?Insiders?) at ARMORY ONE, NOT ORB. Completely off topic, just drop this one now, as you apparently did not take time to read all my comments in context Demonize? Im not, I never at any point said that their actions were wrong/negative. In fact, all their actions at Orb were appropriate given the Seirans response (which was more or less "Go F* yourselves ZAFT) (other than Durandal's real intentions to conquer Orb, which was known to but a few). My whole reason for starting this debate, was against your bias against Kira and Co. by pointing out facts and/or possible flaws in your logic (and please do note I am not doing any of this to offend you, you have your rights to your own opinions and interpretations) Typo, I take that part back then. Refer to above about my "demonizations", the only problems I have against ZAFT is Durandal, who was obviously the main villian since the start Heres my problem with your interpretation of Kira and Co. "letting Djibril go". You make it sound like they let him waltz out the door on purpose in plain view, and that their INTENTIONS from the start was to save him, which was clearly not the case. A more accurate summary of the situation is "Due to Kira's and Co. interventions to save Orb, they unintentionally (as a side effect) let Djibril escape" (which is by all means still a F* up). This makes sense as Cagalli took what measures she could to find him after Kira and the AA covered for her. However due to the chaotic nature of any battle, the mess the Seirans left Orb in (which cagalli also had to deal with), and Cagalli interfering with his launch plans, Djibril was able to use the opportunity to escape alone (and conveniently at this time the Minerva and the AA were tied up with each other). Another thing of note was that plot armor was also on his side, as they had to move things to space Now as for that last sentence. You apparently did not read my previous posts, and others about your so perceived "god complex", AND my reasons for why Kira and Co. could not go after him following the Orb Battle. Go back and read those.

2013-06-07, 15:52	Link #7523
Aquaman OS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	If anything Kira is far to nice for his own good. He'd have been much better off if he'd for example, let Minerva wipe out the Orb fleet (Yuna would be dead, Zaft would have no legitamate reason to attack him later, and they could go back to Orb with nobody to really question Cagalli taking over since Yuna just got himself and most of their fleet killed) but that would cause Orb forces to die to he interfered despite knowing it wouldn't work. He'd have been better off letting Berlin burn and going back to Orb unmolested by Zaft as they got no credit and only Shinn's ire, while Destroy Neo and Sting would have easily killed Shinn without backup, depriving Durandal of his super solider. But that would mean innocent people would be killed, so he went to try to save them. He'd have been better off if he'd just killed Shinn in the many many chances to kill him he had and didn't take. But Kira only kills sparingly and thought Shinn didn't deserve it. It's also hard to say Kira is doing things all wrong when....He's right. He thinks Durandal is out to get them, but Durandal is. He thinks Durandal has a scheme despite his seemingly peaceful demeanor and he does. He thinks Durandal will kill anyone who won't submit to him, and by all indiciations he will. Rey even tells Shinn that he should be willing to kill anyone and everyone simply on Durandal's word alone.

2013-06-07, 16:41	Link #7527
Aquaman OS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	Shinn actually did see Neo shot down. He even reacts to it in a "Oh boy Stella's not gonna like that" way. And then that was it. He never heard from him again. He never saw AA pick him up (and has no reason to assume they would, he had no idea of their history) and he never came up as a Logos prisoner. Ie, Shinn thinks he died there. He never encountered Neo in the final battle. So as far as Shinn is concerned Neo's paid for what he did, while Freedom was still an available target. (of course hating him at all when it was something that couldn't be helped is something that Shinn is wrong about, but Shinn's never have a open minded unbiased view of anyone) Plus Neo never really had other interaction with Shinn, while Shinn's hated Freedom ever since it first started popping up, this only made it worse.

2013-06-07, 16:48	Link #7531
Aquaman OS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	Yes he did he was right there. He clearly is shown seeing it.

2013-06-07, 19:24	Link #7533
Aquaman OS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	Well since you've ignored me pointing out Cagalli tried for a cease fire twice, I guess you're just trolling, or that desperate for a reason for Shinn and Durandal to be right that you're ignoring it.

2013-06-07, 20:29	Link #7535
Destined_Fate Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."	Kira rendering mobile suits inoperable doesn't mean his hands are clean when another person finishes the job in his stead. People that go to war and are afraid to pull the trigger aren't better than those that do, Kira caused a lot of deaths as he left them unable to defend themselves thus making them easy pickings. Or are you saying that ORB didn't shoot down those Kira disabled in Destiny? They would be foolish for not, Kira cannot claim innocence for their deaths. Yes, Kira was in fact defending a corrupt ORB. Whether Cagalli was successful or not he was already going to fight ZAFT/Feds. He only cared that they were invading ORB and didn't care at all that ORB brought it upon their selves because of their poor choices. False, Djibril was not going to escape if ZAFT/Feds weren't being held back by ORB/Cagalli's Renegade Faction/Kira Faction. Hell the Archangel stopped the Minerva from making any real ground after it appeared. Fact of the matter is that Djibril escaped because of Kira's interference, that cannot be refuted. Shinn and Rey were busy trying to take out Kira, furthermore Kira's Strike Freedom had Beam Spam it refused to use. Kira should have at least tried as he was the only one in that area that had a chance of stopping Djibril as the Freedom was a true long range mecha while the Legend relied more upon its DRAGOONs which only worked in space. Your explanation was flawed, Cagalli didn't once try to explain the situation and went, like Kira, for a Shoot First and Don't Explain Yourself Ever stance. I already explained what she would have done. She should have contacted ZAFT/Feds on a Global Channel the moment she could and explain the situation about ORB and her plans to retake ORB from Yuna. Instead she decided that talking is dumb and came in guns ablazing than she was wondering why after she regained power that ZAFT/Feds didn't want anything to do with her as she was firing at them still. Yes Kira DOES have a God Complex. He believes what he wants is always right and nevre once apologizes in Destiny for all the BS he pulls. He even had Athrun hating on him because of his dumb actions after he became a rogue faction and decided to play God by attacking both sides for being guilty as they weren't listening to him and only him. ORB was only in that state because of Yuna, Cagalli, and Kira's actions that spilled over finally at the Battle of ORB. Furthermore the Archangel was far from completely wrecked and Lacus had allies in space as well as the means to get them back into space with her vast resources. They quite simply didn't want to stop Djibril and were more concerned about taking our Durandal even if it meant letting Djibril run free to murder thousands more. Hell Kira doesn't even feel remorseful for Djibril's escape and never expresses a desire to stop Djibril. Thus you give them an excuse for not even trying because "someone else" might be able to do the job. That's sad. If everyone lived by that saying than no one would ever go after murderers or the such as "someone else" might do it instead so they don't have to left a finger. Which is EXACTLY the stance Kira and co. took which shows they didn't care at all about what Djibril was doing as he wasn't worth their time and those he later kills clearly weren't worth the energy to save hence why Kira and co. sat on their rears the entire time. Kira decided he was going to kill Durandal and had planned to take him out personally for some time. The only reason Kira oppossed Durandal early on is because he didn't agree with Durandal. It's only later that Durandal is made true evil and does evil things so that Kira is now "justified" in trying to take out Durandal from the start. You're putting too little. Djibril was a main player in Destiny and all the blood on his hands after the Battle of ORB are on Kira and co's hands too as they allowed him to escape and let him do as he wanted until the Alliance finally hunted him down.

2013-06-07, 20:53	Link #7538
Aquaman OS Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008	He still "Damaged" him and people blame Kira for his death. And rather than argue I'll give them that, because his record is otherwise flawless.