Why is Gundam Seed Destiny so controversial?

[neodrag38]

And I now can conclude that you enjoy simply bashing. Really Morisato, are you capable of putting down more than simply a demonization that you have done time and again that isn't a rant?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by neodrag38

And I now can conclude that you enjoy simply bashing. Really Morisato, are you capable of putting down more than simply a demonization that you have done time and again that isn't a rant?

I do believe I agree that Morisato's arguments are far from convincing, but hasn't the same level of "convincing" argument been used again and again against other characters? Lacus and Kira perhaps?

And I don't seem to recollect you, neodrag38, to have EVER told people to stop bashing characters unfairly when it was to your liking.

If you want play logic/moral police, fine; but I would prefer you to apply that mentality across the board. Next time a similarly-worded Kira-bashing post is made, (or in fact, ANY similarly-worded bashing post bashing any character at all) I would expect you to be just as swift in your comments of condemnation.

[neodrag38]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I do believe I agree that Morisato's arguments are far from convincing, but hasn't the same level of "convincing" argument been used again and again against other characters? Lacus and Kira perhaps?

How so? How exactly were these characters existence generalized to such a point as that of "GRRR" for Shinn.

And I don't seem to recollect you, neodrag38, to have EVER told people to stop bashing characters unfairly when it was to your liking.

And this occur when again? I still don't remember much in terms of coming across someone simply putting down a bash of Lacus and Kira without much explanation on their point of view nor offering a comment as blunt and singular in pointing blame upon a single character for an entire series.

So I don't remember anyone putting down like for instance that Kira has zero skill as a pilot or that he alone is responsible for GSD being what it became. I usually come upon post that list Kira as one of the reasons; not the only one where all you get is a rant where his actions are simply generalized. We don't need to hear the repitition of fictional sister complex.

And at such times of course I always have either you or someone else going out of their way to cry foul in such a occasion. Yet you seem to think I should go out of my to do something when you already said enough in response?

If you want play logic/moral police, fine; but I would prefer you to apply that mentality across the board. Next time a similarly-worded Kira-bashing post is made, (or in fact, ANY similarly-worded bashing post bashing any character at all) I would expect you to be just as swift in your comments of condemnation.

And I wish that you would actually produce a quoted similarly-worded Kira-bashing post that is as short and rantful as that of Morisato about what Shinn has done. It remains that Morisato is guilty of blaming Shinn alone for GSD not being great on multiple occasions. Not a first time occurence for him to put down a post that includes the generalized "Grrr."

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

And I wish that you would actually produce a quoted similarly-worded Kira-bashing post that is as short and rantful as that of Morisato about what Shinn has done.

I would, except for that scum Cracker named Snowblower. Trust me, I would very much like to prove myself right (knowing of course, an internet argument can never really resolve without hard evidence), but it appears the evidence for either side has been wiped by the Great Crack...

And yes, I WOULD check every thing you posted in 2005 just to reply, even if it would take me a week. But I can't check what has been destroyed...

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

I would still say its godly... just not as godly as Kira...

Protecting your comrades' lives + protecting your mothership + protecting your own hide + endless waves of EAF/Orb/Freedom rainbow spams...Shinn was pushed to his limits, so how could it be GODly of him doing all that stuff? I call it perfectly normal. If we are pushed to our own limits, we are capable of doing things we wouldn't be normally doing if we aren't pushed to do it or if our own lives are in great danger.

I mean, when it comes down to it, Shinn should have probably spent most of the series saying "ARRRGGGHHH why is it like this this isn't like TRAINING"... I mean, he went from weak ace to demi-god ace in just a few short battles... Shinn may have gotten high scores in the academy, and is considered an Ace, but he is still facing pilots who are FAR more experienced then he is... They may be Naturals, but their experience would definatly count for something; especially when we know how strong a natural can get, from examples like Mwu and Natural aces from Astray mangas... shooting down 30 windams like Shinn did should have probably been impossible for him to pull off... Sure the desperate situation would give him the motivation to fight harder, but just because you got the motivation doesn't mean you got the skills to back it up...

Shinn definitely had the skills. He didn't waste 2 years in the ZAFT Academy and graduating from it as a red coat if he didn't have any special skills that made him a cut above the rest of his graduating class (not sure with Lunamaria though...>.>;; ). He snapped out of his "WTF this isn't SO much like TRAINING" mode and had to go from one horrendous battle to another, he wasn't even given enough time to rest or recuperate from his previous battle or whatever...but the fact that he had actually coped with it and shown constant improvement of his skills throughout the series actually pointed out that he had that certain thing which was required of him to become that Ace. He actually worked really hard to become that Ace. And he wasn't even gunning for it. All he wanted to do was to protect the Minerva, everybody on board, to the best of his abilities...and that's just it.

Shinn knew that the people he was fighting against aren't something from the training simulations, but still, it's pretty scary for a first time Gundam pilot to actually go out into the real battlefield and fight...someone who knew the battlefield as the training simulator would definitely have a very hard time adjusting to the real time situations and so suffer crappy battles, but still, it is expected that he should learn from that, and what he learned is something that he could use to improve his skills more. Which is what he did.

The first red coats were very skilled, why not the second wave?

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper

Protecting your comrades' lives + protecting your mothership + protecting your own hide + endless waves of EAF/Orb/Freedom rainbow spams...Shinn was pushed to his limits, so how could it be GODly of him doing all that stuff? I call it perfectly normal. If we are pushed to our own limits, we are capable of doing things we wouldn't be normally doing if we aren't pushed to do it or if our own lives are in great danger.

By your logic, the grunts should not have been shot down so easily, for their skills would have also risen after seeing 10 of their buddies shot down in mere seconds... sounds like that same despiration would start to kick in... Not to mention, We know that Shinn's desire to protect everyone was not even at it peak because i don't think he even seed-moded in that battle... but that doesn't even matter, because just because you have a strong desire to do something, doesn't mean you also have the means to do it... it is not "perfectly normal" to do more then what your capable of... on the battlefield, a soldiers desire to protect and so forth will not magically make him a better marksmen; in fact it may actually cause him to become desperate and make his abilities much more sloppy... The only time we see poeple go beyond their limits is when they use the plot-device of seed-mode

The first red coats were very skilled, why not the second wave?

The past red coats had even more experience and dispiline under them... Not ot mention the fact the the ZAFT aces of GS worked as a team of four... and Shinn still seemed like he was more skilled then them... In the early portion of GS, the ZAFT aces as a team used FAR superior and top of the line Mobile Suits to fight agianst grunts using bottom of the line technology...

GAT series>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile armor
ZGMF series >>>> Windams

By all means, with far better weapons, and better OS support, the EAF grunts of GSD should be far superior then the grunts of GS... and Shinn managed to solo that battle against the windam, all of his allies were too busy with the other gundams... We never saw Atrhun, of Yzak at the begining of GS solo something like 30 windams

[dom33]

shinn had it alot tougher than kira did cause his opponents could actually scratch his suit.the ginns,goohns, and bucues couldn't scratch the strike and the zaft gundams are weaker than strike(it's obvious).amd kira had help his name is mu la flaga the hawk of Endymio,shinn had athrun who jest flew around and transformed alot,he had heine who was actually usefull but died after being around for three episodes.sure rey and luna helped a little but not win a battle.kira had to deal with zaft then zaft and e.a. with help of eternal,white base i mean albion no argama no archangel,kunasagi,dearka,mu,athrun,alot of m1 astrays and 2 meteor units which has the ability to wipe out thousands of enemy units and everyone thinks that reqiures skill, shinn had to deal with thoose terrorist,e.a,orb,and the god suit freedom.

[monster]

Originally Posted by dom33

shinn had it alot tougher than kira did cause his opponents could actually scratch his suit.the ginns,goohns, and bucues couldn't scratch the strike and the zaft gundams are weaker than strike(it's obvious).amd kira had help his name is mu la flaga the hawk of Endymio,shinn had athrun who jest flew around and transformed alot,he had heine who was actually usefull but died after being around for three episodes.sure rey and luna helped a little but not win a battle.kira had to deal with zaft then zaft and e.a. with help of eternal,white base i mean albion no argama no archangel,kunasagi,dearka,mu,athrun,alot of m1 astrays and 2 meteor units which has the ability to wipe out thousands of enemy units and everyone thinks that reqiures skill, shinn had to deal with thoose terrorist,e.a,orb,and the god suit freedom.

Hence why Slayerx considered Shinn to be godly.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by dom33

shinn had it alot tougher than kira did cause his opponents could actually scratch his suit.the ginns,goohns, and bucues couldn't scratch the strike and the zaft gundams are weaker than strike(it's obvious).amd kira had help his name is mu la flaga the hawk of Endymio,shinn had athrun who jest flew around and transformed alot,he had heine who was actually usefull but died after being around for three episodes.sure rey and luna helped a little but not win a battle.kira had to deal with zaft then zaft and e.a. with help of eternal,white base i mean albion no argama no archangel,kunasagi,dearka,mu,athrun,alot of m1 astrays and 2 meteor units which has the ability to wipe out thousands of enemy units and everyone thinks that reqiures skill, shinn had to deal with thoose terrorist,e.a,orb,and the god suit freedom.

I think it's better to Compare Shinn to the ZAFT aces of GS then too kira... afterall, Kira was untrained, the ZAFT aces on the otherhand were trained like Shinn, and have experience and dispiline under them...

Shinn faced against odds that were far greater then what the ZAFT aces had to face, and he made it look rather easy... The ZAFT aces had the best weapons and fought those who had inferior abilites and FAR inferior weapons, and they also supported eachother well; none of that one man show deals... Shinn had a superior weapon as well, but it wasn't nearly THAT much better then the weapons the enemy used and he had very poor support; he was generally soloing the offencive against enemies... Athrun, Yzak, Dereakka, and Nichol were all aces, but they did VERY well in supporting eachother in all of their fights... never did one of them just do most of the work, they shared the battlefield... Shinn had support from Athrun, Rey, and Luna, but they were not nearly as useful... He always had to do most of the work himself (you'd think Athrun would have been doing most of the work); he shows FAR more skill then he should have

Though, i also don't agree with Kira's rise to power... hence why i say he's more goldy then Shinn... The strike's tech explains well his ability to fight against grunts, thus explaining his survival against ginns and baucoos; afterall, this is the same logic behind Amuro's rise to strength in UC... however, it doesn't explain his survival against the ZAFT aces... the aces had more experience, skill, and had the same level of tech as Kira... and Mwu may have been great backup, but Kira still had to face atleast 1-2 of those aces... by all means just one of them should have been enough to tear him apart BEFORE he could use the seed-mode plot-device...

Though, Kira may be godlier, Shinn was also rather demi-godly aswell

[tetsuo69]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

I think it's better to Compare Shinn to the ZAFT aces of GS then too kira... afterall, Kira was untrained, the ZAFT aces on the otherhand were trained like Shinn, and have experience and dispiline under them...

Shinn faced against odds that were far greater then what the ZAFT aces had to face, and he made it look rather easy... The ZAFT aces had the best weapons and fought those who had inferior abilites and FAR inferior weapons, and they also supported eachother well; none of that one man show deals... Shinn had a superior weapon as well, but it wasn't nearly THAT much better then the weapons the enemy used and he had very poor support; he was generally soloing the offencive against enemies... Athrun, Yzak, Dereakka, and Nichol were all aces, but they did VERY well in supporting eachother in all of their fights... never did one of them just do most of the work, they shared the battlefield... Shinn had support from Athrun, Rey, and Luna, but they were not nearly as useful... He always had to do most of the work himself (you'd think Athrun would have been doing most of the work); he shows FAR more skill then he should have

Though, i also don't agree with Kira's rise to power... hence why i say he's more goldy then Shinn... The strike's tech explains well his ability to fight against grunts, thus explaining his survival against ginns and baucoos; afterall, this is the same logic behind Amuro's rise to strength in UC... however, it doesn't explain his survival against the ZAFT aces... the aces had more experience, skill, and had the same level of tech as Kira... and Mwu may have been great backup, but Kira still had to face atleast 1-2 of those aces... by all means just one of them should have been enough to tear him apart BEFORE he could use the seed-mode plot-device...

Though, Kira may be godlier, Shinn was also rather demi-godly aswell

i have nothing to say.. but just agreed with everything Slayerx has said..

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

By your logic, the grunts should not have been shot down so easily, for their skills would have also risen after seeing 10 of their buddies shot down in mere seconds... sounds like that same despiration would start to kick in...

Well, too bad they were grunts, and in Fukuda's twisted knowledge of the term, grunts = grunts in the deepest sense, so they were grunts when Shinn took them down. Why, grunts in SEED were already treated this way, why pick on Shinn's massacre of 30 Windams in this sense?

Not to mention, We know that Shinn's desire to protect everyone was not even at it peak because i don't think he even seed-moded in that battle... but that doesn't even matter, because just because you have a strong desire to do something, doesn't mean you also have the means to do it... it is not "perfectly normal" to do more then what your capable of... on the battlefield, a soldiers desire to protect and so forth will not magically make him better marksmen; in fact it may actually cause him to become desperate and make his abilities much more sloppy... The only time we see poeple go beyond their limits is when they use the plot-device of seed-mode

But Shinn showed that one could be very well driven to his own limits without using SEED mode. Also, I think he went SEED before destroying each and every single one of them, as his 2 teammates were embroiled in their own little battles, the Minerva was badly damaged, and Athrun was no help... and as I explained above, grunts are grunts.

In the magical sense of the word, every SEED capable person instantly become expert marksmen or what have you. Plus all the plot devices thrown in. In Shinn's case, he didn't go SEED every single time he goes out into the battlefield, because he could take care of the grunts pretty well. The same is true for Kira and Athrun. So, you could call them pilots of skill, because they don't have to rely on their SEED all the time just to make things a little bit flashier or whatever. But...take out the SEED, Shinn still has the same skills, although not too highlighted or anything....and it becomes only even better in SEED. Kira's SEED in GSD is only more rainbow spam, and Athrun's SEED served no other purpose but just Destiny-ing Destiny...also, if you say that going SEED is somebody pushed to his limits, then what do you call Kira's SEED, which he could call forth anytime he so wishes? Granted that he's the first person to SEED and he's been using SEED as daily as one could breathe, but you can't exactly call it pushing to the limits when Cagalli was crying and he went into SEED mode just to knock some sense into Athrun. Or in this case, Saviored him to Savior some sense into Athrun. But now this leaves me to think that non SEED Athrun >>>>> SEED Kira all the way, that was why he had to go SEED...

The past red coats had even more experience and dispiline under them... Not ot mention the fact the the ZAFT aces of GS worked as a team of four... and Shinn still seemed like he was more skilled then them... In the early portion of GS, the ZAFT aces as a team used FAR superior and top of the line Mobile Suits to fight agianst grunts using bottom of the line technology...

GAT series>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile armor
ZGMF series >>>> Windams

Hmm. If my mind serves me correctly, the Heliopolis Gundamjack was their first mission, and they did it superbly. Also, since they're sons of high officials of the PLANTs, I highly doubt that their commander in chief would do anything rash like sending them to missions wherein their lives could very well be jeopardized...

And as Sting said, it's not in the suit, but in the pilot. And in Fukuda's sense, grunts are still grunts, so if they go against a hero Gundam they always die.

You can't say that the 2nd wave isn't working as a team. They are working as a team, but because there was another Gundamjack (if there wasn't any Gundamjack those units could be deployed to be used by the other 2 red coats for all we know), Shinn was left with the hero Gundam that is >>>>>>> any other EAF grunt suit in CE existence, and the 2 people are left with not so great suits of whatever caliber (I see how many old UC fans are crying foul about what happened to their beloved Zakus, and judging from their violent reaction, the Zakus were degraded to such an extent that they weren't Zakus of the UC anymore...just new cannon fodder...). So, in the CE sense of illogical nonsense, these suits are <<<<<<< than the hero Gundam, and so therefore must look/appear useless right next to the hero Gundam, unless of course the old elites from the Jachin Due war are using it (because of experience and what have you). But this seems to apply in reverse for Kira...

By all means, with far better weapons, and better OS support, the EAF grunts of GSD should be far superior then the grunts of GS... and Shinn managed to solo that battle against the windam, all of his allies were too busy with the other gundams... We never saw Atrhun, of Yzak at the begining of GS solo something like 30 windams

Going by the premise that the 4 GS red coats were using Gundams VS the 3 GSD red coats wherein only one was using a Gundam and the other 2 are using "useless" suits, and that Gundams >>>>> grunt suits...and Fukuda seems to have forgotten the dialogue his wife made wherein Sting commented that it's not in the suit but in the pilot...it's no big mystery, really.

Lunamaria and Rey already have their hands full protecting the Minerva, and Shinn had to look out for them + the entire crew aboard the Minerva against the endless waves of EAF grunts, Orb grunts, and the Archangel happily dropping in to try stopping them in the middle of their own battle. Yes, Shinn was GODly indeed...

[Demongod86]

Athrun was no help to Shinn? You mean like keeping the FREEDOM off of him while he was in his sluggish BLAST IMPULSE? That's quite a BIT of help if you ask me. Or perhaps he should have left Shinn to get IMPULSED?

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Athrun was no help to Shinn? You mean like keeping the FREEDOM off of him while he was in his sluggish BLAST IMPULSE? That's quite a BIT of help if you ask me. Or perhaps he should have left Shinn to get IMPULSED?

And so, how did Athrun help out by getting his Saviour Saviour-ed by Kira as a result? If anything, Athrun taking on Kira only made things worse in the end as the Minerva ended up with one less suit to support Shinn with.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Athrun was no help to Shinn? You mean like keeping the FREEDOM off of him while he was in his sluggish BLAST IMPULSE? That's quite a BIT of help if you ask me. Or perhaps he should have left Shinn to get IMPULSED?

It wasn't great thinking on Athrun's part in some way. I mean everything was helter skelter, Athrun was just wondering WTF was going on around him, then he saw Kira charge Shinn. Athrun wasn't any help because he was distracted a great deal, something which is a big nono in a CE battlefield, especially more so now that the GOD has come out to play. And since he was distracted a great big deal (or maybe because of the fact that Kira was there) he let himself get Saviored, wherein Athrun was a match for Kira (and I say Athrun is more than a match for Kira! ).

Athrun was also at Kira's GOD moding antics that left Heine dead, and countless others more "disabled", then he got Saviored because of it. So it means to say that if even it was HE in the way of the GOD he deserves to be GODmoded?

[demon_god04]

Not to mention that in the battle where Heine got killed Athrun should have had a clear view of gaia coming up from behind Heine. Instead of doing anything or giving a warning he floated in mid air sputtering Kira over and over and grappling with his radio...

[monster]

I think what DemonGod86 is trying to say is that if Athrun hadn't interfered at that time, both Impulse and Saviour would've been destroyed. But since he interfered, only Saviour was lost.

[Ryuujin]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Not to mention that in the battle where Heine got killed Athrun should have had a clear view of gaia coming up from behind Heine. Instead of doing anything or giving a warning he floated in mid air sputtering Kira over and over and grappling with his radio...

I don't think that's Athrun's fault. Heine got his own damn self killed...

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by monstert

I think what DemonGod86 is trying to say is that if Athrun hadn't interfered at that time, both Impulse and Saviour would've been destroyed. But since he interfered, only Saviour was lost.

I know what he meant, but there was no real evidence to say that Shinn would have undoubtedly lost to Kira. He did dodge Kira's beam saber slash while in the "sluggish Blast Impulse," after all.

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Not to mention that in the battle where Heine got killed Athrun should have had a clear view of gaia coming up from behind Heine. Instead of doing anything or giving a warning he floated in mid air sputtering Kira over and over and grappling with his radio...

And I agree here, Athrun should have been at least covering the downed Minerva instead of trying to talk to Kira.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

I know what he meant, but there was no real evidence to say that Shinn would have undoubtedly lost to Kira. He did dodge Kira's beam saber slash while in the "sluggish Blast Impulse," after all.

True, but dodging an initial direct attack is one thing, keeping up with Freedom's later attacks while all you can do, at best, is hover over the water is another matter altogether

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by monstert

True, but dodging an initial direct attack is one thing, keeping up with Freedom's later attacks while all you can do, at best, is hover over the water is another matter altogether

And since when has it been that hovering on the ground/water has been a huge disadvantage? What do Doms do? And we all know how fast and maneuverable those suckers are on the ground. Last I checked, the Gundam Mark II and Hyakushiki were both self-flight incapable units, and they beat the Asshimar and Gaplant, which were both flying units. The point isn't being able to fly or not, the point is dodging what comes your way, and being on the ground doesn't make it much harder to dodge. Especially when you've got hover jets. Basically you're saying that a car wouldn't be able to dodge a helicopter's rockets. (using rockets here because missiles would track the target, but beams don't so they're more similar to rockets than missiles)

I really don't see where people get the idea that the Blast Impulse is slow/sluggish, from what we've seen of it, it's actually fast. It just can't straight-out fly. I guess people just assumed that since it has artillery it can't move good, which is a not-very-good assumption, look at Gundam Leopard and how fast it moves with its hover jets. The Blast Impulse dodged the Abyss' attacks when it popped out of the water from different directions, based on that and the speed of hover jets, it's not hard to see that it can actually dodge pretty god. Not to mention Shinn has a great barrier to block Kira's attacks: water. He just cuts his jets and falls into the water when Kira shoots at him and he doesn't have time to fully dodge. Water: the beautiful all-natural beam barrier. And remember that while solid weapons work underwater (the Freedom's rail cannons), they can't damage active PS armor.

And once again, there is absolutely no evidence that would say that Shinn would get beaten by Kira then.