2008-09-30, 22:54 | Link #221 | |
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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Interestingly enough, ever since the 1980's the "war is good (for the economy)" meme went the other way around: we kept having these mini-recessions when we went to war ever since the First Gulf War. A decline in usefulness of the much-vaunted and equally hated Military-Industrial complex? Maybe. Also, I think in geopolitical terms those who are gloating at the US right now will pay the price later, not because of any conscious American revenge, but rather because their economies will be affected too. I said it before somewhere else, but if the US comes crashing down, we'll take the world with us. Not a nice prospect wherever you are. And your point about not having a point of reference in world politics isn't a happy one either, IMO. That's just more chaos, not more, hmm, "self-determination." |
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2008-09-30, 23:00 | Link #222 | |
Gregory House
IT Support
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I'm rather surprised to hear that from you... It almost sounds as if you're advocating having the US policing the world's economy or something like that, (or having any other single, centralized state doing so). The fragmentation of relationships of power is something GOOD in my book. At least we know now that having a centralized point of failure is bound to bring about not-so-good things. And I'm not gloating at the US... I'm more than conscious that our economy will be affected. I think I mentioned it in my previous post.
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2008-09-30, 23:23 | Link #223 | |
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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Try the Middle East, for example: so the US leadership was an utter, abject, shameful failure. That's clear enough (thanks again Bush!). But what will happen if the US withdraws its influence from the region in a hurry? Will there be peace and cooperation? I seriously doubt it. Iran will want to assert itself as the master of the region; Saudi Arabia will want the same, Holy Wahhabi Islam and all; Egypt may want to go back being Nasserific; Israel will scramble to protect itself from a hostile neighborhood; and Turkey might prefer itself over other, more volatile nations to lead the region... And the voice for reason won't be heard. Who ever listens to writers and philosophers when the time comes to wage war? C&C Generals II: Middle Eastern Mess, or that's how I see it anyway. True, superpower bullying isn't fun, but the UN and other similar organizations on the more local scales are not strong enough to assert themselves in its place. I don't really doubt that it's going to happen -- I believe that my generation will see the relative decline of US power worldwide over time, ala the British Empire post-1900, Pax Americana isn't meant to last -- but while I don't see what we have now as righteous hegemony, I don't think what comes after will be something to look forward to either. ...but that's all off-topic, so I apologize to the thread readers and participators for dragging it out a bit. |
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2008-10-01, 00:50 | Link #224 |
Gregory House
IT Support
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Oh, I'm not saying it's going to be some sort of panacea or something like that (you'll never hear me advocating magical solutions to overly complicated issues such as, umm, the entire world ). I'm just saying it will be a step in the right direction for once--even if that step is not intended.
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2008-10-01, 12:22 | Link #225 |
Loyal Haruhist.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Age: 37
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Unlikely, what Irenicus said is not only true in the middle east but in asia too.This is particuliarly worrying considering Asia is rapidly becoming the core of the global economy.
I am not american, but I am convinced that most of us will regret the good old days of the "pax americana".No global hegemon is perfect, but this one was relatively benign and even positive in some aspects if like me you think that democracy, freedom of thougts and other niceties are good things. Oh, well, I doubt the current crisis will have an important effect on the global standing of the US.12 aircraft carriers and 86 battleships are more effective than billions of dollars on that aspect.
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2008-10-01, 12:32 | Link #226 |
Kuu-chan is hungry
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Raleigh, NC
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http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/to...n-history.aspx
Bailout Wall St. please! Stories like these definitely don't help the government explain to people why the bailout is needed. |
2008-10-01, 12:41 | Link #227 | |
Gregory House
IT Support
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And how can we forget the freedom obtained by countries where the US waged war on just for some sort of economic gain? And what are the niceties and good things? The stupid and self-destructive consumerist society all countries around the globe have come to inherit? I know I come off as rather bitter, but it's the truth, you know.
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2008-10-01, 12:47 | Link #228 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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2008-10-01, 12:56 | Link #229 | |||||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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Meanwhile, the banks will collapse, and new banks will pick up the pieces, but along the way, ordinary Americans will suffer. In the long run, this will indeed be a healthy blood-letting. But, again, I wonder if Americans are willing to pay the likely price of this drastic get-well plan? Quote:
There is another alternative. If the United States government doesn't want to own its own institutions, why not let foreign governments buy them? The trillions that Americans have spent on imported goods have fattened many sovereign wealth funds over the years. These funds would probably be quite happy to take controlling stakes in these troubled, but potentially lucrative, assets. Presumably, the above idea would be an even harder sell than the Great US Socialist Bailout Plan. Quote:
"And the underlying issue, Baker says, is that the US has lost close to $4 trillion in housing equity. The toxic assets at the heart of the financial meltdown are mortgage-backed securities. But with house values plummeting, it's impossible to gauge how much these securities are worth." I hope that Americans, and indeed the whole world, will now learn this important lesson: Real estate can fall in value just as easily as it can rise in value. Property-fuelled consumption has always been a leading cause of financial crises all over the world. People constantly make the mistake of thinking that property is a "safe bet" that cannot fail. Once again, we are reminded, very expensively, that there is no such thing as a "sure bet". Credit is freezing up in the US because no one knows the value of mortgage loans any more — we only know that they are steadily declining. From the same source that Vexx had quoted, I found this suggestion: Quote:
============= Meanwhile, the US has a far deeper problem to resolve. American consumers cannot be allowed to continue funding their expenditure by borrowing against their properties. The mortgage crisis clearly shows that this is an unsustainable trend. Many Americans are steadily growing poorer today because they've depended too heavily on rising home values to prop up their bank accounts. In the long run, American households must be encouraged to start saving again, and to spend within those savings. But that's a problem to be solved over time. The crisis on Wall Street, on the other hand, needs to be resolved now. Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2008-10-01 at 13:31. |
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2008-10-01, 13:16 | Link #231 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: PMB Headquarters
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On second thoughts, maybe it does have an effect. I think this current economic turmoil will be a wait and see speculation thing as to how bad it will affect the world. It might not hurt just the middle class, but everyone on a whole different scale. |
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2008-10-01, 13:34 | Link #233 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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the credit problems is going effect everyone, it is call the trickle down effect
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2008-10-01, 13:37 | Link #234 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
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She doesn't seem affected by this crisis. |
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2008-10-01, 13:37 | Link #235 |
Casual prosumer of anime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Germany, most of the time.
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Assuming that the banks are still wary about loaning to one another and this uncertainty continues, this could affect the people who need to take out loans to buy cars, homes and so on.
Small and medium-sized business owners could lose entire businesses if they don't get the credit they need from their banks. People's retirement accounts could lose a lot of money if they are heavily invested in stock markets. |
2008-10-01, 13:38 | Link #236 |
Pilot in Training
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Earth
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Yeah, it will affect normal citizens like me. I might have to suspend college if I can't get a loan. Or how about the businesses that will tank? unemployment will rise. I just hope it doesn't rise with inflation, or I might not be able to post here since internet would be insanely expensive.
Hard times for all in the US are coming. Also, people are already loosing portions or all of their 401Ks. |
2008-10-01, 16:13 | Link #237 | |
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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Why, how ingenious! While there's no guarantee that throwing trillions at banks and financial intermediaries will really convince them to loan out again, the government itself becoming a lender bypasses that problem. Papa Sam doesn't -- or shouldn't, ideally -- care all that much about getting a profit off its loans, it cares a lot more about allowing businesses to receive capital for their operations; and in any case the position of a lender has far more leverage than the one-time beneficiary role will have, allowing for future, crucial, necessary adjustments to be made in the economy as needed. But of course, that's "socialism" and a big no-go, uh-huh. Although I'm not sure it'll come out that excellently in the long run. I can hardly call myself an expert or even an amateur of Japanese economic history, but I vaguely recall that the Japanese eventually had to change out of that model and not perfectly smoothly while at it. |
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2008-10-01, 17:17 | Link #238 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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2008-10-01, 19:32 | Link #239 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
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New Senate bailout bill pricetag: $850B
Yep, watching debate, they are about to vote on c-span... it is gonna cost 850 billion... lots of earmarks... including a large sum for "mental health parity"? get to the phones and scream bloody murder! (are you kiding me, hold on, gotta look up the number...Email and phone call made) |
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