Fate/stay night Episode 16 Discussion thread

[kamikazex]

the duel attack killed him. whats more to say?

[andiyar]

@ gammaoh

I've made a copy of your list - I'm not going to address it here step-by-step, or perhaps anywhere, but I do intend to use it for a later post. Thanks for all the points, 'twill make something I've been planning a lot easier.

Now, to the actual reply:

Originally Posted by gammaoh

To be short, I don't think Saber was shown so much concern either as a Servant or even as a King. She devoted herself to be some kind of protector of justice just like Shirou (since "they're the same") but she's full of regrets. As a Servant, she's surprised by how much concern Shirou shows to her, going as far as to carry her and to risk his own life to save hers.

Saber is also following a very specific code of honour here, which we see exemplified in her attitude at the start - so she personally feels obligated to act in certain ways. She will not, for instance, drink souls of her own accord or even when ordered, only under compulsion. She is following essentially a knightly code (which is kinda a reversed anachronism for Arturia, but hey - TYPE-MOON liberties again, as well as medieval romance). Shirou also displays aspects of a similar code, which we see in the first and second episodes, and then throughout the show - staying back to help after his shift, cleaning the dojo, dreaming of being like his vision of Kiritsugu, and so on. He also devotes himself to being a protector of justice - basically, as you've said, "they're the same." This is what I'm thinking that Saber is referring to when she says they are the same, which is bourne out by her continued speech. She is telling him to not be what she has become. This doesn't exactly seem like a 'lovers speech' to me at all. It is a warning. It is calm, emotional, and rational.

Now, to play devil's advocate a bit - what is a King but a protector of his people? Myths of Arthur often state how loving and how protective he was of the common folk, that he was their champion and their hero, not just the ruler of the nobles but the ruler of all Britannia. A Servant's role is perhaps similar, in that a Servant should protect their Master - I see in Saber here regret for past actions. She was a King dedicated to a noble cause, the highest a King can have, and she seems to have had that ideal tarnished since she died, moved on, ascended, etc. Perhaps it has happened in a prior Grail War, perhaps something else, I honestly do not know. But I believe that Saber, who was an idealist, has lost some of that purity of purpose. Much like Archer, perhaps. Perhaps it was due to Mordred, perhaps she has been compelled to go and eat souls, perhaps she regrets something else from her past - Arthur's past is a minefield of regrets to be plumbed.

I've gotten a tad sidetracked here, but my point is really rather simple - being a protector doesn't make you any less of a King. For a noble, honourable ruler, it is the exact opposite. "To Protect and to Serve."

Saber has changed her mind on Shirou since ep.4 when he saved her IMO. Then, her character slowly developed. And her feelings of "friendship" or "brotherhood", whatever you call it, turned slowly into deeper affection then into love.

Much of what has occurred can be considered to be bonding, true. A lot of it, however, doesn't feel like a relationship-style bonding. For the first ten or so episodes, the bonding between Saber and Shirou has been tinged with the masculine - warrior bonding, in effect. Shirou is reacting firmly within his belief structure (see above), and Saber within her honour code. Saber has commanded troops and fought in battle, she has doubtless gone through a similar process with soldiers in the past (can't be shown, but I'm confident it can be assumed). What seems to surprise Saber here is the regard that Shirou is showing to a Servant as a Master. He does state that girls shouldn't fight (parochial much?) but at this point, Saber doesn't consider herself a woman. She clearly states this during the first bath episode.

The episode in the park, which shows the first real 'physical' signs of affection is very clinical and disjointed. Saber offers her lap as a pillow to Shirou in the 'lover's tradition' - but she only does so as she observes another pair doing so, and thinks that Shirou is tired. There is no embarrassment in her in this offer, nor does she seem to be implying anything other than what is on the surface. As I posted above, the only real time Saber has been acting 'girlish' as been since the circuit transfer. Each and every other incident can be interpreted as comradeship or friendship - and she has been quite cool and collected as well.

She may have been thinking about Shirou, but I definitely wouldn't say that she is in love with him. Not at this point.

That's why I really don't understand people saying it's gone too fast. Actually, there were so many hints showing this evolution. This connection has grown faster in the two last episodes because this has to be developed. Had it been any slower and people would have started complaining about how slow these two are to get to it (which people already do actually). Not to mention that Saber has undergone a lot of stress in the last eppy's, from her exhaustion and Shirou's kidnapping to Shirou accepting to give away some of his magic circuit just for her and his Imaging of her sword.

I must be attaining the squeaks of a breaking turntable here - but I must say it comes down to a pair of concepts, and they is believability, and textual justification. As I noted, the only real emotional bonding has been happening since episode 15. Yes, there's the background, but it is not a sexual one on Saber's part, so building on that in terms of sexual emotion requires a bit more time and effort than you'd think.

As I wrote above, Saber and Shirou did the spiritual meld less than two days ago. And in those two days Saber has gone from warrioress with friendly attitude to blushing girl worried about her figure. Sorry, but unless Shirou slipped her some kind of spiritual drug during the meld, or unless she's on uninhibitors, it doesn't happen that fast.

Of course, you can argue, people can and do fall in love quite quickly. Of course they do, that's' part of life. But this is where the second concept comes in, and that is textual justification. If you are going to have characters showing feelings for each other, then you have to support it within the text (regardless of the medium). What you see as vindicating the complaints I see as bowing to pressure. Characters should always remain firmly in character, unless there is a very specific and highly supported reason for them not to be. If they are changing, this change has to be shown. Don't just flash in my face the two different faces and let me draw the lines (or expect people to accept it based on extra-anime knowledge such as the game). I need to see it happening in the show, or for it to be there to be seen if I'm looking for it. Otherwise, it is just poor character development and execution, ie: poor writing.

This is where the speed issue that many of us are having with Saber's character progression is occurring. Is the actual change believable? Yes, I think that it is, or rather, that it could be. Is it supported in the text yet? Not to the extent that would justify the change. It's fine with me if they go down a Saber/Shirou relationship route with Fate (though I do have thoughts on that ^-^) but if it is going to be done, at least do it properly and well.

And as Mr.Guy said, she's a young girl that had no chance of being a real girl in her previous life (how can you do so when you're King Arthur, a sort of God of War?). Shirou gives her the occasion, and even asks her, to act like the girl she is.
Hence the fact that Shirou becomes her first "boy" in her eyes. Hence the fact that, having considered herself as a fighter from the very beginning, she doesn't feel like a girl and believes her body is not a girl's. Hence her clumsyness and her not being able to control her emotions. She's not used to it, that is.

This passage I somewhat agree with. I may find myself agreeing with it more in the future. Just a few points - Saber has never seen herself as a young girl, until episode 15 as far as I can tell. If you'd never considered yourself a sexual being in any sense, and had absolutely zero relationship experience, how are you more likely to react to a stimulus that gives you the opportunity? Will you all of a flash show outside characteristics of your change (with no evidence to see them happening)? Or are you more likely to change slowly, self consciously, with all the stumbling and the inexperience that this implies?

Saber is doing the self conscious and the inexperience. But she's showing them far to externally, and far too quickly - for someone with no experience, nd probably zero self confidence in a relationship sense, who has considered her femininity to be a complete moot point... That is again, why this development of Saber is too fast.


</writer mode: off>


For those who just hate long posts, a brief summary:

I don't mind what they're doing with Saber, I just hate the way they're doing it. ^_^


-Andiyar

[vin.dictive]

I was wondering why Hercules was made into a wordless beast. It would have been nice to see some of this (including the flashback) worked into the show a bit earlier so that his defeat would have had a bit more impact. The flashback could have been expanded upon--it really made me curious about what exactly happened towards the beginning of Ilya and Berserker's relationship.

Spoiler:

Ilya used 'mad enchancement' on Beserker since the beginning of the war. Mad enchancement is a trait of the Beserker class- they lose their sanity in exchange for power

The episode had its offs in animation (i found the faces pretty erky... u?), but the effect conveyed to the audience is tops. I hope they are going to revise on episode 16 for their DVD release, that'll be great! :)

[kamikazex]

lol i like the way they're doing it
better to start now then later considering theres not alot of epsodes left

[Muir Woods]

I've watched the episode and read through the thread. I'll voice my thoughts to support a side of consensus. A lot of people echoed what I first said in episode 15's thread, and this gives me confidence in my words. Episode 16 reinforces this impression and roots me further into this side of the consensus. I'll just add a bit more to strengthen this perspective. True, there are events and interactions between Sabre and Shirou that potentially could have altered Sabre's character. After the mana-transfer event, all of a sudden, Sabre's feminine awareness increases from what we percieve as essentially zero to that of a normal girl. But to say that this transformation was due to all those actions and interactions she had with Shirou is hard to swallow, as we are not given any hints of an impact these actions has had on her. Observing Sabre, we do not see any change (of not only the emotional aspect of herself) of her paradigm. Sabre's observable behavior and composure right before the mana-transfer has always been pointing towards her initial servant mindset. The way they portrayed Sabre to be oblivious before, and self-conscious immediately after, heavily suggests, no, commands that her transformation was all due to that one event. Thrusting us to an unsatisfying development.

The mana-transfer should've just acted as an "unlocking" of Sabre's shell. Visibly, instead of a level constant zero and then a sudden jarring spike of change we experienced in these two episodes, a beginning gradual uphill slope of change would've been more preferable. With Sabre and Shirou's connection with each other perpetually increasing, there should be more than enough opportunities and/or level of impact (as a consequence of their strengthening bond) to make those changes visible with the episodes left. Episode 15, there shouldn't have been any blushing, or any observable change in Sabre's state of mind. It's too immediate. Episode 16, there should've been only one blush, during that chat Sabre and Shirou had near the end, somehow working that in while they were communicating. Then then more, with increasing intensity of affection as the episodes and happenstances goes on. That, would've been believable.

[justinstrife]

Originally Posted by Muir Woods

snip.

Couldn't have said it better myself. You and Andiyar are a breath of fresh air as a fellow writer. I got in a slight disagreement with a friend about this on MSN, and we just had to agree to disagree as our views just couldn't see eye to eye on this matter. It is to a certain extent, up to the reader/viewer's interpretation, but as a writer myself, I've been very unsatisfied with 80-90% of the interactions between Shirou and Saber, and how the directors and writers have gotten us to this point with these two characters. The ends do not justify the means in this case, and I feel the transition could have been made much more believable, if they hadn't made the scenes so jerky and sudden, without some kind of internal monologues, or other signs for us viewers to pick up on. Oh well. At this point, I'm focusing less and less on the romance aspects, as they are unsatisfyingly worked, and focusing more on the fights, side characters, plots, and the music tracks.

Shirou holding his own against Berserker, and adding yet another girl to his harem, are what gave this episode an 8. The Saber parts dropped what could have been a 10.

[gammaoh]

Ok Andiyar, your post was brilliant and I've got too few things to add to make something as good as you did but I'll try to do it briefly.

Saber is also following a very specific code of honour here, which we see exemplified in her attitude at the start - so she personally feels obligated to act in certain ways. She will not, for instance, drink souls of her own accord or even when ordered, only under compulsion. She is following essentially a knightly code (which is kinda a reversed anachronism for Arturia, but hey - TYPE-MOON liberties again, as well as medieval romance). Shirou also displays aspects of a similar code, which we see in the first and second episodes, and then throughout the show - staying back to help after his shift, cleaning the dojo, dreaming of being like his vision of Kiritsugu, and so on. He also devotes himself to being a protector of justice - basically, as you've said, "they're the same." This is what I'm thinking that Saber is referring to when she says they are the same, which is bourne out by her continued speech. She is telling him to not be what she has become. This doesn't exactly seem like a 'lovers speech' to me at all. It is a warning. It is calm, emotional, and rational.

Now, to play devil's advocate a bit - what is a King but a protector of his people? Myths of Arthur often state how loving and how protective he was of the common folk, that he was their champion and their hero, not just the ruler of the nobles but the ruler of all Britannia. A Servant's role is perhaps similar, in that a Servant should protect their Master - I see in Saber here regret for past actions. She was a King dedicated to a noble cause, the highest a King can have, and she seems to have had that ideal tarnished since she died, moved on, ascended, etc. Perhaps it has happened in a prior Grail War, perhaps something else, I honestly do not know. But I believe that Saber, who was an idealist, has lost some of that purity of purpose. Much like Archer, perhaps. Perhaps it was due to Mordred, perhaps she has been compelled to go and eat souls, perhaps she regrets something else from her past - Arthur's past is a minefield of regrets to be plumbed.

I've gotten a tad sidetracked here, but my point is really rather simple - being a protector doesn't make you any less of a King. For a noble, honourable ruler, it is the exact opposite. "To Protect and to Serve."

Much of what has occurred can be considered to be bonding, true. A lot of it, however, doesn't feel like a relationship-style bonding. For the first ten or so episodes, the bonding between Saber and Shirou has been tinged with the masculine - warrior bonding, in effect. Shirou is reacting firmly within his belief structure (see above), and Saber within her honour code. Saber has commanded troops and fought in battle, she has doubtless gone through a similar process with soldiers in the past (can't be shown, but I'm confident it can be assumed). What seems to surprise Saber here is the regard that Shirou is showing to a Servant as a Master. He does state that girls shouldn't fight (parochial much?) but at this point, Saber doesn't consider herself a woman. She clearly states this during the first bath episode.

The episode in the park, which shows the first real 'physical' signs of affection is very clinical and disjointed. Saber offers her lap as a pillow to Shirou in the 'lover's tradition' - but she only does so as she observes another pair doing so, and thinks that Shirou is tired. There is no embarrassment in her in this offer, nor does she seem to be implying anything other than what is on the surface. As I posted above, the only real time Saber has been acting 'girlish' as been since the circuit transfer. Each and every other incident can be interpreted as comradeship or friendship - and she has been quite cool and collected as well.

She may have been thinking about Shirou, but I definitely wouldn't say that she is in love with him. Not at this point.

I totally agree on that part. However, the one thing I haven't said precisely should be said here. Kings and rulers are supposed to be infallible people, thus, the people is hardly forgiving when the ruler does a mistake or does not behave like he/she is supposed to.

Shirou by his actions shows a forgiving and worrying attitude (even chauvinistic, let's say it) and shows Saber that she herself shouldn't bear all of Shirou's injuries. He shows her that she doesn't have to remain stoic with him, especially when she is experiencing pain.

My whole list wasn't made to display how love first began back in ep.4.

My point is, love often begins with friendship, comradeship or a somewhat closer relation than just acquaintances.
And friendship often begins with similarities rather than differences, which is what Shirou and Saber share.

In a way, I do agree with you on all the discussed point. In fact, it's all a matter of speed or unshown events for you. Which brings me to your (and mine) next point.

I must be attaining the squeaks of a breaking turntable here - but I must say it comes down to a pair of concepts, and they is believability, and textual justification. As I noted, the only real emotional bonding has been happening since episode 15. Yes, there's the background, but it is not a sexual one on Saber's part, so building on that in terms of sexual emotion requires a bit more time and effort than you'd think.

As I wrote above, Saber and Shirou did the spiritual meld less than two days ago. And in those two days Saber has gone from warrioress with friendly attitude to blushing girl worried about her figure. Sorry, but unless Shirou slipped her some kind of spiritual drug during the meld, or unless she's on uninhibitors, it doesn't happen that fast.

Of course, you can argue, people can and do fall in love quite quickly. Of course they do, that's' part of life. But this is where the second concept comes in, and that is textual justification. If you are going to have characters showing feelings for each other, then you have to support it within the text (regardless of the medium). What you see as vindicating the complaints I see as bowing to pressure. Characters should always remain firmly in character, unless there is a very specific and highly supported reason for them not to be. If they are changing, this change has to be shown. Don't just flash in my face the two different faces and let me draw the lines (or expect people to accept it based on extra-anime knowledge such as the game). I need to see it happening in the show, or for it to be there to be seen if I'm looking for it. Otherwise, it is just poor character development and execution, ie: poor writing.

This is where the speed issue that many of us are having with Saber's character progression is occurring. Is the actual change believable? Yes, I think that it is, or rather, that it could be. Is it supported in the text yet? Not to the extent that would justify the change. It's fine with me if they go down a Saber/Shirou relationship route with Fate (though I do have thoughts on that ^-^) but if it is going to be done, at least do it properly and well.

I don't think, and I think most of you don't as well, that love is something rational.
You agreed that the bonds became growingly tighter as the episodes passed by.
In reality, love can be built over time or it sometimes just needs a trigger to appear in someone who was somehow already attracted by somebody else but didn't feel it so expressly. (I just put aside the "love at first sight" thingy).

We can always discuss the hows in this story. And I disagree on one point with you. Someone trully inexperienced in love could really, when overwhelmed by this feeling, react like Saber. What's Saber reaction? Her reaction is to not know how to react (except sending off Shirou).

When inexperienced with love, you just don't know how to drive this feeling. So either you back off and hide it as if it was a shame or you somewhat express it but clumsily and without accepting yourself as good enough for the one you desire.

Otherwise, I agree with you. It's true that there are things that should have been shown and explained better in the evolution of this relationship. However, the directors are bound by time as well. They have to fit everything in these 24 episodes they have... and to develop the rest of the plot, they do have to go fast sometimes. Too bad it's been on that point you may say. But it's still satisfying IMO because there is a good pace so far.


Well, gotta go working now... still those damn exams.

I really appreciated that post Andi.

[SweetSpring]

Originally Posted by darkchibi07

Isn't there an anime rule that the girl's breasts absorb water like sponges?

ohh please!!! it's just the drawing i guess...

[zato_1one]

Somehow I found that that finishing blow is really make sense to me. And I have my own reason not just because it's for plot developing or something like "The Sword That Brings the Promised Victory".

First I must point out something that is very interesting to me.

1.In Episode15, Illya clearly said to everyone that Berserker must be killed for 7 times.

2.According to Archer. He said that “If you cannot defeat your opponent in reality, image something that will allow you to defeat him in your imagination.”

3.There are 2 important sentences from Shirou‘s thought. “I will make a sword that you can use!” and “I said I’d create a sword that would surpass Berserker but I can’t even use this sword.”

If you pay enough attention to what I‘ve written, you should get my idea already. For Shirou, the first and the second subject are a key to defeat Berserker in a single hit. And the third subject is what Shirou imagines. This reflects how powerful Shirou’s ability is. He can create a weapon that can kill any enemy if he knows his enemy’s true weak point!

Shirou knows he has to kill Berserker 7 times so he imagines a sword and gives it power to surpass Berserker Noble Phantasm (blame yourself Illya). He succeeds doing it but he still can’t use a sword with its full power. Why? Look for the first sentence in my third subject. Whom do you think Shirou mention to? Saber, of course! His imagination comes true and when the condition has met (Saber uses a sword). Boom!!! Farewell to our mighty Hercules. Berserker talks really surprise me and I think it is the best scene in this episode.

Then what is different between Shirou and Archer. I don’t think this is a spoiler but if I’m wrong please notify me. Back to episode14, Archer is also imagining a weapon just like Shirou. He prays to create a powerful weapon. Remember those wing-like swords? He said “Tear a mountain from the earth, the sword divides water into two”. I think that is his idea to give power to his imagine weapon. Of course everyone would think that a sword which can tear a mountain or even divide water surely can destroy everything. Sadly Berserker is too stubborn to die. The problem is Archer doesn’t know Berserker weak point so he ends up his fate here.

At this point some people may think why Archer does not imagine a weapon which can kill Berserker 100 times or a weapon which destroy the world or something like that. I think that is a weak point for this ability. In order to create such a powerful weapon just like your imagination is really hard. This is my theory about this ability.

1.Mana is very important. The more powerful the more mana usage. In this case even if Archer knows Berserker weak point. I think he also knows that he may run out of mana so he tries to use another way.

2.Concentrating at what you want to create. Which I think is really difficult, not even a little flaw in your mind is allowed just like Shirou mention in this episode. Try to imagine something that you don’t know or don’t believe is nearly impossible because it’s likely you deceive yourself. This process is just like drawing a picture you must design every part of an object and imagine what is it used for and how to use it too. In this case imagine what you have seen before may be easier.

3.The most important thing and a real key is “Fate”. You must have fate. Not much to say. The word describes itself.

OK. That’s all. I don’t know detail about this fight in a game. I don’t know what is the real reason behind that destroyer move but I will believe my theory because it makes me happy watching this anime and it‘s too suck for me to believe that Berserker was defeated because of a sword’s name.

One last thing, I think the most down point in this episode is animation quality although the effect while fighting is top notch but it’s still really pissed me. 8/10 should be 7/10 but plus 1 point for Caster. I am forever Rider fan but now she has gone so I must diverge my feeling to Caster who is my second favorite character. Just for temporary of course.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

Then what is different between Shirou and Archer. I don’t think this is a spoiler but if I’m wrong please notify me. Back to episode14, Archer is also imagining a weapon just like Shirou. He prays to create a powerful weapon. Remember those wing-like swords? He said “Tear a mountain from the earth, the sword divides water into two”. I think that is his idea to give power to his imagine weapon. Of course everyone would think that a sword which can tear a mountain or even divide water surely can destroy everything. Sadly Berserker is too stubborn to die. The problem is Archer doesn’t know Berserker weak point so he ends up his fate here.

Considering who Archer is, he does know berserker weakness.

[npal]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

3.The most important thing and a real key is “Fate”. You must have fate. Not much to say. The word describes itself.

You need to have what?

[gammaoh]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Considering who Archer is, he does know berserker weakness.

Not necessarily. True he is a strategist, but the fact that Shirou knows about it doesn't mean Archer necessarily do. Neither does it mean that he has guessed what Berserker's Noble Phantasm consist of.

[zato_1one]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Considering who Archer is, he does know berserker weakness.

Oh you may be right but I don't sure if Archer has recoverd all of his memory or just some part of it.

Originally Posted by npal

You need to have what?

I simply mean you must be Shirou so you can use it.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

Oh you may be right but I don't sure if Archer has recoverd all of his memory or just some part of it.

That depends on if you believed Archer when he said he doesn't remeber his past.

Personally I think he was lying when he said that. He knew perfectly who was and was using the old "i forgot" excuse to setup his Harem.

[gammaoh]

He knew, no doubt about it.

He just can't say "Look, you see your pal over there, the one you kinda like, that's me!".

[Shiroth]

Just think how easily messed up the story was if Archer said right from the start who he is..

Still, i do think its kinda lame that Shirou hasen't clicked ontp Archer's identity - Archer told him how to trace, now all Shirou has gotta wonder is how does Archer know.

I'm hoping that maybe if Archer does come back into the anime in what looks to maybe be a dream of Shirou's, then Shirou shall click onto who Archer is.. or maybe it better is left as a mystery in the anime.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Angelsama

Just think how easily messed up the story was if Archer said right from the start who he is..

Still, i do think its kinda lame that Shirou hasen't clicked ontp Archer's identity - Archer told him how to trace, now all Shirou has gotta wonder is how does Archer know.

I'm hoping that maybe if Archer does come back into the anime in what looks to maybe be a dream of Shirou's, then Shirou shall click onto who Archer is.. or maybe it better is left as a mystery in the anime.

I am suprise illya hasn't figure it out yet. She saw Archer in action and how familar he was with her. She also just saw Shiroub in action as well.

[gammaoh]

Well, what trully caracterize Shirou would be his Reality Marble rather than just Tracing which a good magi can perform. And she just can't guess that he is in fact Imaging.

Since I do believe that Shirou will trigger his UBW, I'm not really worried about this. Even his incantation might be slightly different...

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

I am suprise illya hasn't figure it out yet. She saw Archer in action and how familar he was with her. She also just saw Shiroub in action as well.

She probably didn't stop to think about it again.. hence why she hasen't clicked on.

[Mr. Guy]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

That depends on if you believed Archer when he said he doesn't remeber his past.

Personally I think he was lying when he said that. He knew perfectly who was and was using the old "i forgot" excuse to setup his Harem.

Spoiler for Hint at Archer's true identity, not for the slow people:

Even if he was lying, that still doesn't mean Archer knows Berserker's weakness. The viewer/player is never given all the specifics of Archer's life so one can't assume Archer knows everything that Shirou does. But this is also where things get complicated regarding the timelines.

Nice explanation zato_1one. It's nice to see people coming to their own conclusions regarding such matters