One Piece - Chapter 552 (manga)

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by AddiKtioNn-BlaCk

The main 2 People I'm expecting to give a hell of a performance is Whitebeard and Garp.
As the only 2 men to ever match the Pirate King. They should be the strongest there. So through these 2 we should be able to get a taste of what the Seas were like back then. Also Mihawk too, just because he's one of my favorites and looks like he's ready to chop some fuckers up

It was never mentioned that Garp was able to match Gold Roger. All that was said about Garp was that he was the man who "cornered" the pirate king on numerous occasions and that he and Roger had fought to the death many times (as stated by Roger himself). "Cornering" and "Fighting to the Death" don't mean being equal.

It was explicitly stated by Buggy, however, that Whitebeard is the only person to ever stalemate in a fight with Gold Roger. Whitebeard is also labeled as the strongest man in the world, so that automatically makes him stronger than Garp or anyone else for that matter.

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by DSDSSDWE

I find it hard to believe that the Japanese are unable to distinguish "will" as a purely psychological condition, which is what most of the rest of the world see it, and "will" the way you use it, combining both the psychological and spiritual characteristics. It sounds like a severe limitation of the Japanese vocabulary, not to mention a rather unscientific assumption of the workings of humans from a psychological perspective by the Japanese.

However, if that is truly the case (again, highly doubtful) and if you insist on using the loaded Japanese perspective, then don't translate "Haki" but just call it exactly like that. Calling it "will" is a distortion of the word as everybody else knows it. Which makes debating a lot more confusing. Because no matter what you say, "will" pertains to the psychological.

Except they don't consider it "will" or call it "Haki" in HxH (which, btw, shares a LOT of similarities with how "Haki" is used in One Piece) or DBZ, but instead consider it some internal energy.

Well, I'm also not in an argument modd now, so this post is not an argument as well. You can say my 'Ki' is now not in that mood for arguing.

But yes Haki should be put in Japanese, simply because the meaning of the word and its concept cannot be found in the English language. Its also why the translators sometimes retain the word in Japanese, much like 'Nakama'.

But still people in the West wants to know and understand what Haki and Ki is about. And through the discussions, we came up with words like 'will', 'intention' and stuff like that. The Haki thread is an attempt to understand the Japanese concept of Haki in English.

[AddiKtioNn-BlaCk]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

It was never mentioned that Garp was able to match Gold Roger. All that was said about Garp was that he was the man who "cornered" the pirate king on numerous occasions and that he and Roger had fought to the death many times (as stated by Roger himself). "Cornering" and "Fighting to the Death" don't mean being equal.

Being as though they fought to death numerous times and both of them were still alive. I assume he was able to equal Roger on some occasions.

Spoiler for Garp and Roger:

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

It was explicitly stated by Buggy, however, that Whitebeard is the only person to ever stalemate in a fight with Gold Roger. Whitebeard is also labeled as the strongest man in the world, so that automatically makes him stronger than Garp or anyone else for that matter.

I'm not doubting Whitebeard is the strongest. But Garp should be up there too.

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by Master Mold

Wouldn't be the 1st time.

Yeah, Oda did brush Moria aside in that throw down against Luffy. Moria didn't even damage Luffy with any of his attacks, not too mention he couldn't even control the shadows he absorbed [How the heck does a so called high class Shichibukai pirate that's been to the New World [Supposeldy Rivaled Kaidou] and back not able to control his own power?]. Moria didn't even make any blades out of his shadow's or use doppleman at all. Instead he uses something useless against Luffy's devil fruit...physical blows. Now you tell me what that is cause I know it's bad writing on Oda.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

Yeah, Oda did brush Moria aside in that throw down against Luffy. Moria didn't even damage Luffy with any of his attacks,

Obviously Moria harmed Luffy, or else Kuma would have had no pain and fatigue to "reflect" and Zoro would have never had to try and accept that pain/fatigue. Luffy is a little like Superman (which is one of the reasons some (albeit the minority) dislike Luffy), while he is said to be, more or less, impervious to physical damage, in reality though, nearly every serious opponent is able to land extensive physical damage on Superman (and Luffy).

(That being said, I am not trying to hold a Moria vs. Luffy debate. I was just pointing out that Luffy was hurt during the fight(s).)

[Phenomenal]

^ I was talking "ROKUOGAN"!!!! type damage, something that makes Luffy really feel it. Make him lay on the floor for a minute. Moria being a Shichibukai couldn't even push Luffy to that point.

[AnbuItachi]

Fighting to the death numerous times kind of implies that they are about the same level. Though I find it surprising that Garp can match roger and whitebeard when he's only vice admiral. He seems older than any of the admirals. It was stated that the 3 admirals are the greatest marine force so it seems that garp is weaker than the 3 admirals. I also noticed that they said 5 pirates, when describing shichibukai. I guess mihawk was once a pirate? wonder if he was on shanks ship

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

^ I was talking "ROKUOGAN"!!!! type damage, something that makes Luffy really feel it. Make him lay on the floor for a minute. Moria being a Shichibukai couldn't even push Luffy to that point.

Doesn't that kind of ruin your whole comparison of Luffy and Zoro more or less being equal? You are, more or less, saying here that the damage Luffy received in the Moria fight was less, maybe even significantly less, than the damage he received in the Lucci fight. So Luffy's pain that Zoro 'takes' was less than the pain he regularly takes... j/k.

Joking aside, I'd say it is more like Luffy learned his lesson from Usopp and Lucci. As long as the villain is still standing, Luffy does not have the right to fall down. In other words, I do think Luffy took massive damage in the battle, but he knew that he and his crew had no time for him to catch his breath, so he had to keep fighting despite his exhaustion and pain. Which is why he promptly collapsed after his fight, something he hadn't done since...actually, when was the last time Luffy fully collapsed directly after a fight? He was able to move after the Lucci, Enel and Crocodile (he moved briefly to save Vivi's father and Robin) fights, after all (even if he spent a few days resting afterwards).

[marvelB]

The thing about Moria is that he's more or less the type of opponent who relies more on trickery and deception rather than flat-out physical prowess. Yeah, he pretty much dug his own grave when he broke out Shadows Asgard in Thriller Bark, but that was him being desperate. He's at his best when he screws around with his opponents like he did with Luffy in their "first round" with his doppelman. He probably was a great fighter before he lost against Kaidou, but after his loss he chose a different approach to becoming pirate king and ultimately became a lazy (but still dangerous) slob who relied more on his subordinates rather than his own power. But again, he was still clever enough to be a formidable opponent, even if he has "gone to seed", so to speak. Just look at the way he manipulated Oz with Luffy's shadow. That certainly doesn't seem like the handiwork of an inexperience weakling, to me.......



And it's not like it's the first time Luffy faced an opponent like that, either. Look at Foxy, who relied on trickery for his fight with Luffy. His stunts were pretty cheap compared to Moria's, but they were still pretty effective, since he beat the living hell out of Luffy during that fight. If not for the mirror getting stuck in his afro, Luffy would have permanently lost one of his own crewmates to the silver fox.......




....so yeah, I guess I sorta see Moria as being the "underdog" of the Shichibukai. He may not be as physically powerful as the rest of his peers, but he still has ways to compensate for that. That's why I'm still hoping that he'll surprise Whitebeard and the New World captains with an army of zombie Pacifistas during this war.....

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by seiji_kun

Sengoku didn't flat out tell it but his words did imply it in a sense imo.

Since when does Sengoku's words > What really transpired on Newgates ship? on that subject matter. Heck the last chapter just gave us the scoop on what Newgate thinks, about Ace being rogers son, so I think that pretty much puts Sengoku's words as null at this point. Unless more info on the matter is revealed, backing up What Sengoku said. Oh and one more thing its against the rules to posts the scans, Quotes are Ok.

Some people find getting your ass owned 100x+ worth mocking.

By the strongest man in the One Piece world at this point in time, then going back for more, I'd say that not worth mocking, but respecting.

Guess a huge misconception on my part. Cause I do find Luffy's overall track record already more impressive with beating 2 shichis, a random logia and taking out EL and infiltrating and escaping ID but Ace beeing quite a big shot in the New World does kind of outshine anything he did now that we know Luffy is far from that lvl. That's what I'm kind of arguing against. But kind of want to give up on it cause this is just a matter of opinion anyway and I know I'm a little biased when it comes to my favorite character in the series.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by AnbuItachi

Fighting to the death numerous times kind of implies that they are about the same level. Though I find it surprising that Garp can match roger and whitebeard when he's only vice admiral. He seems older than any of the admirals. It was stated that the 3 admirals are the greatest marine force so it seems that garp is weaker than the 3 admirals. I also noticed that they said 5 pirates, when describing shichibukai. I guess mihawk was once a pirate? wonder if he was on shanks ship

Yes Mihawk was once considered a pirate, but it is unknown whose ship he was on (maybe he was on Whitebeard's ship, which is why he is considered something of a rival of Shanks (who was on Roger's ship), but I guess that doesn't make sense considering that Whitebeard pirates don't really leave Whitebeard.) or if he was on a ship at all. He could have simply been a wandering swordsman, constantly testing himself against everyone and everything, until he finally became the best, at which point he became a Shichibukai (or maybe he became a Shichibukai in order to test himself?)). Whatever the case, he has always been a pirate.

As for Garp, while I wouldn't say that he was equal to Whitebeard or Roger, he definitely fought in many battles against Roger, and even cornered him occasionally. And, since all the characters are said to still be in their prime (even if Shanks lost an arm, and Whitebeard is hooked up to various machines, they are still said to retain the strength they had at their prime), I see no reason why Garp couldn't be on an equal or similar power level to an Admiral.

[AddiKtioNn-BlaCk]

Originally Posted by AnbuItachi

Fighting to the death numerous times kind of implies that they are about the same level. Though I find it surprising that Garp can match roger and whitebeard when he's only vice admiral. He seems older than any of the admirals. It was stated that the 3 admirals are the greatest marine force so it seems that garp is weaker than the 3 admirals.

I think the Admirals are called the Marine's Greatest Military Force because of their highly destructive abilities. On top of that, it takes more than strength to be considered the position for Admiral, Garp clearly doesn't had the mental capacity to be a Admiral. He doesn't believe in Absolute Justice, he went the WG's back and hid Ace for Gol. D Roger the Pirate King, his son is the World's Most Wanted Man and now his Grandson is a Pirate. So based on that alone, along with his carefree personality at times, he wouldn't be Admiral material.

[SMASHERJACKSON]

i think as BB and ace wer both wb's sons he didnt want to lose another one, as he had alrdy lost the 4th commander, also im not so sure B B can beat WB just yet, i think hes still improving his strength as is luffy but unless theres a 1vs1 well never rly know.

Do we get 553 this week or next?

[marvelB]

Originally Posted by SMASHERJACKSON

Do we get 553 this week or next?

Yeah, we get 553 this week, but there will be a break next week. Shouldn't be a very long wait, though.

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by shankss

Like hell someone capable of destroying the world can make his way out of that place alive.Im just wondering who will be the one to finish him.

No one, they'll be two busy getting under there tables and hiding in the door ways.

[james0246]

^LOL, Standing in doorways and crawling under wooden tables is Whitebeard's weakness .

Or, Maybe Kashima will come down and stop Whitebeard (addmittedly, Whitebeard's ship takes after a whale, and not a gaint catfish)....

Seriously though, Oda's choice of power for Whitebeard is quite telling. I said this before, but the fear of eartquakes (Earthquakophobia) is prevelent among children (even adults) throughout Japan (even the world), so Oda having Whitebeard with such an awe-inspiring power just shows how much thought he put into his Devil Fruits and their users.

[lonewolf777]

Originally Posted by AddiKtioNn-BlaCk

I think the Admirals are called the Marine's Greatest Military Force because of their highly destructive abilities. On top of that, it takes more than strength to be considered the position for Admiral, Garp clearly doesn't had the mental capacity to be a Admiral. He doesn't believe in Absolute Justice, he went the WG's back and hid Ace for Gol. D Roger the Pirate King, his son is the World's Most Wanted Man and now his Grandson is a Pirate. So based on that alone, along with his carefree personality at times, he wouldn't be Admiral material.

All of this is true, but just one comment; the fact that he doesn't believe in Absolute Justice doesn't rule him out of the Admiral running, because Aokiji doesn't seem to believe in it either.

Now, my thoughts on this chapter and potential future ones:
First, I think that obviously ol man Newgate has agents in the Marines; that might be how one explains how he got the Gates of Justice open. I wouldn't be surprised to see mutiny on both sides - the Marines aren't the only ones who would like to see Whitebeard dead; I'm sure among his current allies there are some who want him out of the way so that they can take his place (Buggy and Crocodile made it clear that it's a pretty common notion).

As for the Marines, well, apart from every successful criminal syndicate type organization having inside men in the law enforcement (like the Mafia, and I suspect Whitebeard having men in the Marines), the Shichibukai are a fickle bunch. I don't even understand why the government uses them; I understand about balancing the power, but they haven't been very loyal, and they're very unpredictable. I expect Boa to show some kind of mutiny, and maybe Doflamingo or even Mihawk. While Kuma is obedient enough to them, he seems to have a sense of honor and mercy (as is evident by his letting the Straw Hat crew live twice). It seems the Yonkou must be RIDICULOUSLY strong if the World Government needs the Marines with all their powerful officers AND the Shichibukai to level the playing field with them and they're not even united. This implies, and is backed up by this arc, that just ONE of the Yonkou is powerful enough of an enemy that they need that much to deal with him alone.

Now, regarding Teach, it's pretty clear that he's using the World Government, and he has plans here. I'm sure he planned Whitebeard going to war and aims to take advantage of the situation somehow. There's more to this whole thing than appears, especially cuz Oda seems to have displayed Whitebeard as getting kind of complacent.

I expect Dragon to make a move sometime in this arc. I also think Raleigh has more of a role to play here. He might be among Whitebeard's allies in order to save his captain and friend's son. He certainly could have led him to help with the coating.

And speaking of Raleigh brings me to the Straw Hat Crew. I think they're all going to meet at the Marine Headquarters. I think the details of their voyages will be spared and they'll all use their Bibli/Vivre cards to meet up there. Another evidence that points to this is that Oda is now using the title page 'sub-arcs' to chronicle what's happening with the crew.

I bet Bon Kurei's still alive somehow; is it just me, or does this arc have one too many Okamas? Lol. One or two is fine, but there's something unsettling, as least to me, about seeing an army of people who I can't tell if they're men or women.

Sorry bout the long post folks; one last thing:
Kaidou and Shanks.... what were their respective intentions? It wasn't clear as to why Shanks stepped in to stop Kaidou, nor what Kaidou was doing.

[AddiKtioNn-BlaCk]

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

All of this is true, but just one comment; the fact that he doesn't believe in Absolute Justice doesn't rule him out of the Admiral running, because Aokiji doesn't seem to believe in it either.

Yeah but Aokiji proved his loyalty during the Ohara Incident. Even though he didn't really want to, he even killed his own friend for the sake of Justice. Garp let Luffy run free even though he was a criminal. There lies the difference between the 2.

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

Now, my thoughts on this chapter and potential future ones:
First, I think that obviously ol man Newgate has agents in the Marines; that might be how one explains how he got the Gates of Justice open. I wouldn't be surprised to see mutiny on both sides - the Marines aren't the only ones who would like to see Whitebeard dead; I'm sure among his current allies there are some who want him out of the way so that they can take his place (Buggy and Crocodile made it clear that it's a pretty common notion).

I agree. That is whats going to make this Arc all the more exciting and unpredictable. Even though, I don't see anybody except Blackbeard with the power to actually take him down. Being as though Blackbeard's DF ability actually cancels the other out. But on the same note, Whitebeard is strong physical as well. Mannnnnnnnnnnn I can't wait for this war to get chaotic.

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

It seems the Yonkou must be RIDICULOUSLY strong if the World Government needs the Marines with all their powerful officers AND the Shichibukai to level the playing field with them and they're not even united. This implies, and is backed up by this arc, that just ONE of the Yonkou is powerful enough of an enemy that they need that much to deal with him alone.

This I don't agree with. I think they, or at least Sengoku, are familiar with his power. And of all the Yonkou, only Whitebeard carries the title of the "Strongest Man in the World" and the "Closet Man to One Piece". Along with his Devil Fruit ability. I seriously doubt the World Government would go to this extreme with the other Yonkou. I'm not saying they're not strong, but not as strong as Whitebeard, I mean look at the influence he has over the seas, he a fleet of 1600 men, his crew consist of strong fighers (Ace and Blackbeard are proof enough of their caliber).

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

I also think Raleigh has more of a role to play here. He might be among Whitebeard's allies in order to save his captain and friend's son. He certainly could have led him to help with the coating.

Yeah its possible, I'm actually hoping Dark King Rayleigh and Red-Haired Shanks make an appearance in this Great War.

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

Sorry bout the long post folks; one last thing:
Kaidou and Shanks.... what were their respective intentions? It wasn't clear as to why Shanks stepped in to stop Kaidou, nor what Kaidou was doing.

Yeah I answered that for you in the other thread.

Originally Posted by AddiKtioNn-BlaCk

Kaidou was about to attack Whitebeard from behind. But Shanks intercepted him and their battle ended in a stalemate. The World Government was worried what the battle between the may have led to.

[lonewolf777]

Originally Posted by AddiKtioNn-BlaCk

[FONT="Century Gothic"][SIZE="2"]
I agree. That is whats going to make this Arc all the more exciting and unpredictable. Even though, I don't see anybody except Blackbeard with the power to actually take him down. Being as though Blackbeard's DF ability actually cancels the other out. But on the same note, Whitebeard is strong physical as well. Mannnnnnnnnnnn I can't wait for this war to get chaotic.

You think Blackbeard is that strong? I always thought his strength lied in his scheming and his unpredictability. I mean... Magellan wiped him out pretty easily. And while he defeated Ace, he didn't do so overwhelmingly.

Originally Posted by AddiKtioNn-BlaCk

This I don't agree with. I think they, or at least Sengoku, are familiar with his power. And of all the Yonkou, only Whitebeard carries the title of the "Strongest Man in the World" and the "Closet Man to One Piece". Along with his Devil Fruit ability. I seriously doubt the World Government would go to this extreme with the other Yonkou. I'm not saying they're not strong, but not as strong as Whitebeard, I mean look at the influence he has over the seas, he a fleet of 1600 men, his crew consist of strong fighers (Ace and Blackbeard are proof enough of their caliber).

Well, they may not mobilize everybody against Shanks or Kaidou, but they obviously wouldn't take them lightly. The reason I made this statement is because the Yonkou don't work together; if anything, they're rivals of one another. Assuming that, then, it means the World Government would probably never have to deal with all four of them at the same time, yet they still saw fit to take a risk and hire the Shichibukai as an extra precaution against them.

Originally Posted by AddiKtioNn-BlaCk

Yeah its possible, I'm actually hoping Dark King Rayleigh and Red-Haired Shanks make an appearance in this Great War.

Likewise. It would be sweet. And from past experience, it seems like Oda likes to take care of things in coincidental swoops, so it would only make sense if he killed two birds with one stone by making the whole Straw Hat crew meet where Luffy already is via Rayleigh's card as well as having their ship taken care of.

Originally Posted by AddiKtioNn-BlaCk

Yeah I answered that for you in the other thread.

Ah, I see, many thanks. Where was it confirmed that there was a stalemate? I remember it said 'Shanks intercepted him', but nothing else.

[AnbuItachi]

I'd say whitebeard has that title only because he's the oldest and has fault equally with roger. After roger died, he took over and at that time the other 3 yonkous probably didn't exist yet. Now they do exist but none of them took whitebeard out because they are relatively equal in power, at least they aren't afraid of each other. Kaidou was going to fight whitebeard, Shanks successfully intercepted Kaidou. Shanks also stepped onto whitebeards ship alone. It shows that the yonkous are about similar in strength. I guess since Whitebeard has yet to be defeated, he still claims the world's strongest title and the one closest to one piece.

If one side will fall, id say it would be whitebeard. He's too old.. his time on the seas should be over. Let the future take over.

I think unless whitebeard can take out Kuma's abilities, whitebeard's ships aren't looking too good. Touch and boom vanish...