[Manga] Naruto Chapter 620 Discussion Thread

[Kenu]

Originally Posted by The Small One

I wouldn't say it is a mystery. Spontaneus mutations happen in the world. He probaby just got lucky with his DNA.
I think it's more interessting how everybody is so eager on getting a part of his wood power. What's so special about wood?

Isn't wood-element simply the bloodline combination of earth and water? Much like others who have combined to elements, water and wind for Haku's ice-element. Another example is earth and fire to produce lava-element. In the case of wood-element it can create real trees thus life.

[solidguy]

Originally Posted by gibits

It is expressly stated that shadow clones are able to share knowledge among eachother, but not why that is. All clones are made of chakra but not all of them have this network.
So I guess Minato really doesn't know anything that happened. At least that's the conclusion I drew from the few lines he got. Or he's being coy about it.

Didn't Naruto learn separately how to share info once a clone is dismissed? Something to do with his Asuma training. Sorry if I'm wrong, thats one area of the series I'm not too familiar with.

Originally Posted by The Small One

I wouldn't say it is a mystery. Spontaneus mutations happen in the world. He probaby just got lucky with his DNA.
I think it's more interessting how everybody is so eager on getting a part of his wood power. What's so special about wood? IMHO there are better elements out there. Like those Kazekage's steel dust.

Wood has life giving abilities, probably connected to the sage's abilities. When Naruto first entered mastered kyuubi cloak mode his 'life essence thingies' made plants around him grow. I always thought this had some kind of connection to Hashirama's mokuton jutsu's

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by gibits

It is expressly stated that shadow clones are able to share knowledge among eachother, but not why that is. All clones are made of chakra but not all of them have this network.
So I guess Minato really doesn't know anything that happened. At least that's the conclusion I drew from the few lines he got. Or he's being coy about it.

I think that Minato has been out of the loop about what is going on in the Ninja world since his conversation with Naruto which was awhile ago. I don't think he is oblivious to what is going on to the point that he was sealed within the Death God. Kishimoto seems to like ninja being able to acquire information through a chakra link such as Orochimaru acquiring knowledge when he absorbed his genetic information and chakra back from Kabuto. He learned everything Kabuto knew, including about the Zetsu implanted on Sasuke (no doubt he also has the Snake sage powers Kabuto acquired).

Minato probably remembers his conversation with Naruto within his mind but afterwards that energy dissipated. When he told the other Hokage he didn't know what was going on with the village and the world he meant since his last interaction with Naruto. That was a special moment in the series so it's unlikely that Kishimoto would let Minato forget that just because he split up his energy between Naruto's seal and the Death God. Also I think it's obvious that the Hokage are going to join the battle. They aren't just there to tell Sasuke stuff, they are going to help out and the Kyuubi will probably get back the rest of his chakra if he hasn't already.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

the senju are the yang to the uchiha yin. their inheritance from the sage or 10tails jinchuriki is physical chakra and vitality which i have assumed meant large chakra stores that make them very powerful nature manipulators.

i agree that that seems to be it, but it isn't enough for me to accept them as the uchiha's rival. having a strong body isn't enough to counteract top tier genjutsu or amaterasu or susano'o, etc... just look at how naruto falls for genjutsu so easily and chakra and vitality are his specialty

Originally Posted by The Small One

I can understand your point.
Maybe the Senju posess some sort of immunity to the Sharingan. This would at least make them kind of equal to the Uchiha and could explain why they looked Sasuke directly into the eyes completely carefree.

yes, i would like some kind of explanation like this. tobirama just looked right into the MS like it was nothing. having a lot of chakra or stamina does not account for that attitude

About the stamina and chakra: Wasn't this supposed to be a trait of the Uzumaki? So Hashirama's wife/Tsunade's grandmother?

yea, that's why the senju seem off to me. the uzumakis are the ones who are good at sealing techs and have the chakra and vitality. the sarutobis are the ones who master all sorts of techniques. the senju need at least one unique thing that they excel at in order for them to be believable as the uchiha's rival. just my opinion of course, but they are way too lacking in explanation for me. i hope this current conversation continues for a while despite some people being bored by it. even though it was lame, i really liked the explanation of the uchiha and the sharingan. i am hoping for a similar revelation about the senju to make sense of their history

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

[Orochimaru] learned everything Kabuto knew, including about the Zetsu implanted on Sasuke (no doubt he also has the Snake sage powers Kabuto acquired).

i halfway doubt it. the snake sage technique requires a special body that kabuto got through dna manipulation from juugo. orochimaru wanted sasukes body for this purpose. since nothing should have really changed in orochi, unless he assimilated juugo's cells when he pulled his chakra out of kabuto, then he should still be unable to use snake sage mode. of course kishi can write it either way at this point. it's 50/50

[Casshern]

Hashirama is living up to the hype pretty well. In fact, I feel that these chapters are all about fulfilling Hashirama's hype; having Hiruzen getting his knickers in a bunch and Tobirama acting impulsive and short-sighted while Hashirama shows the clarity and vision to see beneath the surface. Minato Sue is typically flawless (and as characterless as ever).

I hope that Madara will reconcile with Hashirama rather than just get destroyed.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

the sarutobis are the ones who master all sorts of techniques.

No, that is the Senjuu Clan. We have little knowledge of what the Sarutobi clan is known for, beyond the possibility that they can learn higher level techniques at a younger age (but that could just be Konohamaru and Hiruzen), but even that is conjecture. The only solid info we have on them stems from the connection to the Nara, Yamanaka and Akimichi clans. Beyond that, nothing is really known about the Sarutobi clan.

The Senjuu, as already explained, were masters of all types of jutsus (nin, gen and tai), unlike the Uchiha who are jack-of-all-trades with deathbeam eyes. They were the ultimate renaissance ninja. Will they undoubtedly have some extra gimmick? Probably (my guess is extra potent/powerful nature manipulation, that would go along with Hashirama and Tobirama quite nicely). But, even if they do not, it is easy to see how a diverse clan of multiple mastered elements and techniques would be able to combat any singular clan who have only mastered a few (powerful) techniques.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I'm pretty sure Naruto used kage bunshin to search for Sasuke and when the clone that found him was destroyed by chidori the real Naruto was immediately aware of it.

If that were true wouldn't have Naruto noticed it on his own instead of Kakashi telling him? It doesn't make sense that way, so your example is either a plot hole or Naruto dispelled it a moment before it died (his clones were getting stronger as time passed, often they didn't go down from just one hit).

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Orochimaru's bunshin don't work that way. There's always one, original, Oro. He's virtually impossible to kill because he has crazy regenerative powers that basically allow him to shed his body like a snake. A few people actually have suggested that the "last clone alive becomes the real one" is the way Naruto's bunshins work too, but no one in the story has that power except possibly Katsuyu.

Why do you say so? The current Orochimaru is clearly not the original since the original was sealed by Itachi and this one can't be that. Regenerative powers work only if there's something left that can regenerate. Regeneration doesn't even matter to him since he can just seal his soul into any other host body he wants, this time he didn't even use a human body but a Zetsu clone. Until now this one clonse doesn't seem to be just a clone, it's not running out of chakra, so it seems to be as good as the original would be. Or maybe even better by using the Zetsu body.

BTW i wonder if Orochimaru will turn himself into a monster with 100 sharingan eyes in the end or will he remain like he is now, Sasuke counselor. I don't see how else could those hundreds of sharingan eyes be used if not to create some crazy ass monster that has the eyes and also Hashirama's cells, so possibly hundreds of rinnegan eyes. And now it's either Orochi or Madara+10-tails that could become such a monster.

[Lunarskylar]

yea i was always under the impression that the senju just had higher abilities, since tobirama's ability was the power to create so much water, which was apparently (at the time) ridiculously impressive
they could literally be amazing "forces of nature"

the other translation of this chapter i saw implies that hashirama has escaped orochimaru's control for quite some time now. considering the fact that it's hashirama's soul, in a basic clone of his body, the shodai should be extremely powerful.
i'm wondering if having the zetsus as their base will effect their power in any way.

Also, i think minato does remember his meeting with naruto, because he recognizes naruto's chakra, and i'm not sure how he would explain "i remember your chakra from when you were a baby"

do babies even have the ability to use chakra?

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

If that were true wouldn't have Naruto noticed it on his own instead of Kakashi telling him? It doesn't make sense that way, so your example is either a plot hole or Naruto dispelled it a moment before it died (his clones were getting stronger as time passed, often they didn't go down from just one hit).

Read chapter 371. This is when they search for Sasuke in the forest and Naruto uses tajuu kage bunshin to search the whole area. One clone encounters Sasuke who immediately uses chidori on him. The clone has no time to dispel itself and the original Naruto didn't dispel the jutsu either (how would he even know?). At the exact moment the clone is destroyed, the real Naruto announces he's found Sasuke. It was already explained Naruto never noticed the effect before because he's not too bright. And prior to the training, Naruto's bunshin were usually used in close proximity so they would be experiencing mostly the same things as the original anyways.

Why do you say so? The current Orochimaru is clearly not the original since the original was sealed by Itachi and this one can't be that. Regenerative powers work only if there's something left that can regenerate. Regeneration doesn't even matter to him since he can just seal his soul into any other host body he wants, this time he didn't even use a human body but a Zetsu clone. Until now this one clonse doesn't seem to be just a clone, it's not running out of chakra, so it seems to be as good as the original would be. Or maybe even better by using the Zetsu body.

Yes, Oro can transfer his consciousness. When his character was introduced he was on his third body. That also makes him very difficult to kill. What I'm saying is that Oro cannot simply divide into bunshin and then live on indefinitely in the last bunshin that remains. If he could, he could always just leave a spare bunshin or two in his lair and never worry about any kind of harm. Oro must either transfer part of his consciousness to a cursed seal in which case it takes time for him to re-cultivate his body (which is formed exactly as his previous one) inside the host or directly transfer his consciousness into a new body. The latter method is the only way he can live indefinitely.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i agree that that seems to be it, but it isn't enough for me to accept them as the uchiha's rival. having a strong body isn't enough to counteract top tier genjutsu or amaterasu or susano'o, etc... just look at how naruto falls for genjutsu so easily and chakra and vitality are his specialty

for now, imo, (because the next few chapters will explain) the senju are all about raw power. we have seen in manga (despite being told a partner is needed) shinobi break free of genjutsu on their own...shikamaru vs flute girl, pts sasuke vs oro (i think), and sasuke vs itachi...
the senju may very well have or obviously have special chakra in their bodies/muscles much like the uchiha have in their brains...i feel like thats the gimmick. supercharged ability to manipulate chakra. i cant really explain it as eloquently as id like but the senju rival the uchiha cuz they hit harder/are tougher. madara summons susanoo, hashirama busts it open with the first rasengan (last panel)...just speculating

[SoloPanda]

I thought it was rather amusing how everyone seemed to forget that Hashirama was the guy that beat Madara until he got a little annoyed and they all soiled themselves. I mean seriously the kage are like gum on that guys shoe, he's like edo tensei? yea thanks for bringing me back and all but you control nuthin!

[DJ*]

Oro transfers to body full of Hashirama cells: gets extra power for controlling Zombies
Hashirama resurrected into body full of Hashirama cells: can use them to break control
3 others resurrected into body full of Hashirama cells: has no effect

Unlucky fellas

[ChronoReverse]

I'm pretty sure breaking free is more a function of Hashirama's sheer awesome more than anything else.

[Jehuty]

Given that the Zetsu clones are from Hashirama's own cells, it makes sense that he would be powerful as he was originally. While Tobirama's cells are indeed Senjuu, they're still his brother's cells the host has and not his, so that would probably be why he couldn't break from Edo Tensei as easily as he thought.

Hashirama seems like a genuinely good guy, which explains why he was able to eventually reconcile with the Uchiha -- Tobirama must view his brother as simply naive.

I do like this idea though that Edo Tensei is more like a joke to Hashirama, after all Madara was able to manipulate it so he would be in charge. I suspect he was able to do this before but didn't bother as Kabuto gave him free reign from the onset.

[Dengar]

The question is, will Hashirama be able to hijack the jutsu like Madara did, in the (hypothetical) case that Oro unsummons him.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by Dengar

The question is, will Hashirama be able to hijack the jutsu like Madara did, in the (hypothetical) case that Oro unsummons him.

im not so sure being unsummoned is a requirement...not saying that you think it is, i have just read this eleswhere in the forum...

madara says the danger in the edo tensei is summoning someone who knows the seal. i thing madara could have broke anytime...he just didnt because there was no need to rush into doings so since he wasnt aware of the likes of ninja like itachi...

but if this is true perhaps tobirama would have broken out by now so i dont really know

[Dengar]

Well, either way, I understand that it's a simple matter of "knowing how to". And if Madara knows, there is a fair chance that Hashirama knows as well. Of course, that's where my question comes from. "Can he do it?"

Although somehow I doubt that situation will arise any time soon.

Also it seems Orochimaru's spell is stronger than Kabuto's version, since he was able to restrain Tobirama.

It also makes me wonder about the method that can be used to end Madara's undead life. If Itachi is correct, a method does exist.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Dengar

The question is, will Hashirama be able to hijack the jutsu like Madara did, in the (hypothetical) case that Oro unsummons him.

Madara never hijacked it, Itachi forced Kabuto to end the jutsu and what Madara did was to prevent the decomposition of his zombie body and his soul returning to the realm of the dead. He kinda pulled a Baron Münchhausen on himself
However Madara was never forced by Kabuto to do anything, he was free to act from the beginning, so my guess is that if Madara wanted to he could have forced himself out of Kabuto's control.

Reading this chapter my impression was that Orochimaru confirmed that he simply can't control Hashirama at all, so Hashirama is the only one who broke out of the Edo Tensei (neither did Itachi break out, Shisui's eye simply layered a genjutsu on top of Kabuto's Edo tensei). So i think the author wanted to say with this that Hashirama was really the strongest ever, not counting the godlike sage of 6 paths of course. Of course that's the past, the rinnegan-Madara won't be as easy to beat when Hashirama joins the war, i guess it will take all 4 hokages and Naruto to take him down.

[Dengar]

I dunno, Madara doesn't seem that much of a threat right now anymore.

Well, apart from the whole not-dying thing.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Well, either way, I understand that it's a simple matter of "knowing how to". And if Madara knows, there is a fair chance that Hashirama knows as well. Of course, that's where my question comes from. "Can he do it?"

my guess...he already has

Originally Posted by Dengar

I dunno, Madara doesn't seem that much of a threat right now anymore.

Well, apart from the whole not-dying thing.

i agree. that is until/if he manages to become the 10tails jinchuriki