Sword Art Online - "Real-World" and Legal Implications [Speculation, NO Spoilers]

[Oroboro]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Indeed, I may never know for real if I never experienced it first hand. But I can create conjectures based on people's information who did experience them. The more people I ask, the more information I get, and the more vivid that conjecture becomes. Even if it will not be as vivid compared to first-hand experience, it certainly is not "nothing" nor "futile".

From your title and your sig, perhaps you can understand when I say "this is what R07/Beatrice wants the readers/Battler to do".


With all that I've said however, I also agree that it's probably better for Kirito to not divulge information to Sachi's parents unless they actually pursues it, and perhaps even despite that (I'm 'pro golden-land', or 'anti trick-end', if you know what I mean, I can't conjure up the words to explain it).

Actually

Spoiler for Umineko no Naku Koro Ni:

That's kind of what I'm talking about too. Ryukushi said he wanted to create a mystery where the answer can't just be spoiled. You can tell someone the big "secret" or "trick" and they can look it up online, but by skipping the part where you actually read the novel and try to understand it, you completely miss the <heart>, which is the real answer. (Which sadly, so many people seem to miss.)

Moving beyond Sachi a bit - While the anime doesn't really give it a lot of (or at all) screen time, I ultimately think this line of thought is the reason for the implied lack of a public reaction to the SAO event. If something is so hard to be understood by family members and people close to you, Joe Schmoe public doesn't stand a chance. I'd estimate over 95% of Japan's population is not connected to the incident in the slightest (Friend or family is trapped in SAO, or you know someone who knows someone trapped)

So you get moral outrage for the first few months after it happened, then everything slows down, Kayaba remains uncaught, and people start to forget, maybe with a news broadcast every couple weeks of "17 more dead, Kayaba at large."

When the game is cleared and everyone wakes up, everyone is super excited again . That is, until they start interviewing survivors and finding out the horrible truth - that their stories are super boring. "Oh, I sat in the beginner town the entire time and lived off of stale bread. It kind of sucked." or "Yeah, we were in a mid level guild, we were progressing carefully, spent a lot of time farming and upgrading our gear..."

Even the stories from the front line, explaining what, to you was a life and death struggle just sounds like you were playing a video game. (And of course, the really juicy stuff, where people died or killed other players, is stuff nobody wants to talk about.)

So then everyone loses interest again.... That's a bit of a long rant directed at nobody I guess. I really like speculating on these bits of SAO, even if they don't go into detail in the actual material.

[Krono]

Originally Posted by Oroboro

So you get moral outrage for the first few months after it happened, then everything slows down, Kayaba remains uncaught, and people start to forget, maybe with a news broadcast every couple weeks of "17 more dead, Kayaba at large."

Indeed. Half the fatalities from SAO were within the first month. Once that flood slowed to a trickle, the new reporting on it would die down a lot. Particularly bad days or weeks such as the floor 25 and 50 boss fights, or things like the destruction of the Black Cats, where an entire highschool club was wiped out would generate more news on the subject, but in general it'd become a sort of background noise.

[GDB]

Does the public even know anyone died outside of the 217 or whatever that they tried to remove the NervGear from? I thought Kayaba alluded in episode 14 that they would "never wake up", implying that they'd essentially be in a permanent coma-like state.

[Krono]

Originally Posted by GDB

Does the public even know anyone died outside of the 217 or whatever that they tried to remove the NervGear from? I thought Kayaba alluded in episode 14 that they would "never wake up", implying that they'd essentially be in a permanent coma-like state.

They know, and those people are dead. Kayaba's comments were just a fancy way of him saying that all those people that had died, were indeed dead in the real world. The 2000 dead in a month was actually what pushed Suguha's parents to tell her Kirito was actually her cousin.

[FDW]

You know, I actually think that Kayaba making everyone play under their real appearances was actually some twisted form of mercy.

[Oroboro]

It's one thing to play a game as the opposite gender, its another to be stuck as one for two years straight. Would not have been pretty.

Although even with the body switch they were probably still stuck with girls names.

[FDW]

Originally Posted by Oroboro

It's one thing to play a game as the opposite gender, its another to be stuck as one for two years straight. Would not have been pretty.

Yeah, I'd expect some kind of severe body dissonance in that scenario for anyone who changed their appearance, and not just for those who stuck as the opposite sex.

[Libros]

well, as I'm still in the earlier pages, please forgive me if someone has already asked this.

Hypothetically, if the server data was recovered, and somehow the govt. could track down the Pkers..what would happen to those that were at the Laughing coffin raid and things like that? Like, I'm sure not too many people had malicious/murderous intent when they went up against LC(The murderer aka red guild) and killed the people in self defense(when they were raiding, the intent was to capture, not kill)/the survival of the rest of the gamers. would they still be prosecuted like the people in LC? or would their actions be treated as self defense/something less severe than murder of any degree.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Libros

Hypothetically, if the server data was recovered, and somehow the govt. could track down the Pkers..what would happen to those that were at the Laughing coffin raid and things like that? Like, I'm sure not too many people had malicious/murderous intent when they went up against LC(The murderer aka red guild) and killed the people in self defense(when they were raiding, the intent was to capture, not kill)/the survival of the rest of the gamers. would they still be prosecuted like the people in LC? or would their actions be treated as self defense/something less severe than murder of any degree.

Well, personally, I don't think even the Laughing Coffin people would be charged with murder because it's highly doubtful they could make the charges stick. The people in SAO had no actual proof that anyone died in real life when they died in the game (even though that was claimed, and the person did disappear), and they could all certainly claim (and not without just cause) that they were not sane at the time due to the extenuated circumstances. So likewise, I don't think they'd even try to bring charges against those who killed known "player killers" as a form of self-defence/preservation.

I suspect this probably why the whole thing is being treated basically like "what happened in SAO stays in SAO". Kazuto sharing what he knew with the police (which could have included the identities of players who killed others) probably wouldn't be used to lay charges, but just to know who to keep an eye on. If anyone were to get charged with anything, it would be Kayaba, since his "real world" crimes are clear.

Obviously I think the whole situation will cause them to revisit the laws.

[Dr. Casey]

I see where miroku's coming from and think his idea deserves some more respect than it was given. While the arguments everyone raises are perfectly true, that doesn't mean Sachi's parents as individuals won't appreciate the gesture and won't be glad to learn whatever information Kirito can provide; it's something that could very easily go either way.

[Conan-san]

So,

Spoiler for ALO Spoilers:

Dio getting his Christmas thoroughly buggered via the turning off of pain inhibitors (or hibitors, as the case might be) by Kirito.

- is that assault?

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Conan-san

So,

Spoiler for ALO Spoilers:

Dio getting his Christmas thoroughly buggered via the turning off of pain inhibitors (or hibitors, as the case might be) by Kirito.

- is that assault?

Considering the totality of the circumstances, no, not really. It would be a rather easy case of self-defense, as Kirito is not only still defending himself (threatened imprisonment a la SAO style), but also defense of a 3rd party(Asuna) that includes a felony in progress (kidnapping, threat of imminent bodily harm via sexual assault).

Forget about the pain inhibitor, Kirito would've been covered (in the US anyway) if he had cut down Sugou with a real sword.

[miroku2192]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

-snip-

Obviously I think the whole situation will cause them to revisit the laws.

Key point is this, only thing is, even if they tried to use SAO as an example/precedent for all future cases, there really shouldn't be future cases (hopefully) where people get trapped and risk getting killed in-game resulting in death in RL.

Kind of hard to prove mens rea and actus reus, however, if they were to go along the lines of something like: "A reasonable person in X's shoes should not have committed murder in VW given the evidence that was provided by kayaba, etc." and try to go from there.

edit:

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

I see where miroku's coming from and think his idea deserves some more respect than it was given. While the arguments everyone raises are perfectly true, that doesn't mean Sachi's parents as individuals won't appreciate the gesture and won't be glad to learn whatever information Kirito can provide; it's something that could very easily go either way.

*Sheds a tear* --> Seems like I'm still loved by someone <3!!

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by miroku2192

however, if they were to go along the lines of something like: "A reasonable person in X's shoes should not have committed murder in VW given the evidence that was provided by kayaba, etc." and try to go from there.

That's pretty much the only angle someone prosecuting the case can approach it from.

Assuming any attempt even makes it past the prelims.

[miroku2192]

On a completely unrelated but still somewhat related note, i was just wondering - and this stems from a few scenes from SAO and ALO - since we have things like "sex" in the VW, as well as scenes in ALO where we saw that one green-elf leader (who got kicked out) with several scantily-clad NPC women, as well as Sugou talking about how NPCs "can't make that face", etc., and most importantly, porn and prostitution being such a big thing in this world...

Does the virtual world help curb prostitution? I mean, there has to be a game out there where you can just go and live out your "sex" fantasies right? And if you really can "feel" without the consequences of impregnation and sexually transmitted infections (though it would be funny to program that stuff in to troll users), wouldn't this help reduce the number of prostitutes out in the real world?

Question is: Would this be a good thing for the world?
Implications: Potentially Less Prostitutes
negatives: More "herbivores" in the sense that people become so infatuated with the virtual world, they don't care about the real world anymore because it's just so much easier to do it in the "virtual world".
- also, messed up perception of what "sex" and love really is --> We already have porn confusing little kids about how to treat women, etc.


So do you guys think if some creator in this world came up with a sex-VW-game, would the public be super against it? Or would they welcome it?

[Divini]

Some will be skeptical, but it should ultimately be accepted even if it's seen as something 'shady', much like the sex industry and sex in popular media is viewed today.

Now, if it somehow leads to a huge decline in birth rates or skewed gender ratios in countries that already have that problem now, that's when the public will start to go against it seriously.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by miroku2192

On a completely unrelated but still somewhat related note, i was just wondering - and this stems from a few scenes from SAO and ALO - since we have things like "sex" in the VW, as well as scenes in ALO where we saw that one green-elf leader (who got kicked out) with several scantily-clad NPC women, as well as Sugou talking about how NPCs "can't make that face", etc., and most importantly, porn and prostitution being such a big thing in this world...

Does the virtual world help curb prostitution? I mean, there has to be a game out there where you can just go and live out your "sex" fantasies right? And if you really can "feel" without the consequences of impregnation and sexually transmitted infections (though it would be funny to program that stuff in to troll users), wouldn't this help reduce the number of prostitutes out in the real world?

Question is: Would this be a good thing for the world?
Implications: Potentially Less Prostitutes
negatives: More "herbivores" in the sense that people become so infatuated with the virtual world, they don't care about the real world anymore because it's just so much easier to do it in the "virtual world".
- also, messed up perception of what "sex" and love really is --> We already have porn confusing little kids about how to treat women, etc.


So do you guys think if some creator in this world came up with a sex-VW-game, would the public be super against it? Or would they welcome it?

Oh, no doubt there would be such "games", but it's important to note that:

first gen VR tech like NervGear has limitations, and as life-like as it is, it was still obvious to the players that what they're experiencing is not real. Amusphere was even worse in this regard, as it had to be dialed down to make sure it isn't capable of being turned into NervGear 2.0

I can't imagine it'd make too much dent as far as real prostitution goes, that issue has a whole host of issues beyond simply satisfying sexual fantasies.

[Rising Dragon]

Was it "obvious" that it wasn't real for them? Because in the SAO anime that I remember watching, players kept forgetting that the attacks weren't actually hurting them.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Was it "obvious" that it wasn't real for them? Because in the SAO anime that I remember watching, players kept forgetting that the attacks weren't actually hurting them.

I'd say that it actually was, as they'd die if their HP drops to zero. The attacks doesn't cause them pain, but what awaits them at the end of the road makes that irrelevant.

In other words, it's the psychological stress, not any actual sensation, that caused the players to behave the way they did. Would you run screaming from something that you know would do little more than making you feel numb for a bit?

To go into more technical detail would mean pulling stuff from future arcs, and the title of this thread says I can't

[Rising Dragon]

It wasn't just the death game, though, remember? Kirito had to remind Klein back in the first episode, before the death game became apparent, that enemy attacks didn't actually hurt.

And then there were the more comical aspects, like when Asuna walloped Kirito for groping her. He wasn't taking any actual damage there, but he certainly looked like that he felt that blow.