Madoka Magica - Spoilers & Speculation

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

One thought here... if wishes are powerful enough to be able to do world resets and time loops, then it really does just take one wish to solve all problems: "I wish witches never existed." Bam, world reset.

So, ironically, world resets and time loops due to wishes, would destroy the very foundation of the world and the series, and thus wouldn't be possible. If so, it's a big plot hole as to why no MG ever had the thought to wish for something like this.

Oh this is easy. You fell right into the trap there. Kyubei would be pleased

Now if you wished that, yes it would be fufilled but did you think of the consequences? No witch = no grief seeds? What are the mahou shoujo going to do? We don't yet know why the grief seeds are needed but we do know they are.

This means bad things for the mahou shojo. If its fatal, some of them would probably spend the last moments hunting down the wisher.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Tenjo_Utena

I liked what Triple_R had to say in response to my post. My point was that, IMO, the less complicated the plot is the more interesting Madoka Magica will be.

Anyone who watches this show must notice how creepy Kyube is. Is anyone going to be impressed if it turns out he's had an evil agenda this whole time? Anyone?

I think it will be far more chilling if it turns out he really has been trying to save the world by throwing the lives of young girls into hell.

Well, that's different. Everyone has their own preferences, and I can understand why you would like things to develop this way better. I disagree though, but I do understand!

Still, your previous post was about the logic of the show, and being chilling or interesting has little to do with that.

Originally Posted by brutalman

But so far in the anime she's always been seen with a shield. That could be an indication of her having a defensive style - her technique in episode 3 required the witch to attack her to swallow the bombs.

In episode 1, when she's trying to kill Kyubey, she's firing some king of "beams". That's an offensive technique we haven't see yet in detail. It could be that those "beams" are actually her arrows. All things considering, she seems to have a pretty good balance between her offencive a defensive means.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Oh this is easy. You fell right into the trap there. Kyubei would be pleased

Now if you wished that, yes it would be fufilled but did you think of the consequences? No witch = no grief seeds? What are the mahou shoujo going to do? We don't yet know why the grief seeds are needed but we do know they are.

This means bad things for the mahou shojo. If its fatal, some of them would probably spend the last moments hunting down the wisher.

So the real question now is which came first...The Witches or The Magical Girls?

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Oh this is easy. You fell right into the trap there. Kyubei would be pleased

Now if you wished that, yes it would be fufilled but did you think of the consequences? No witch = no grief seeds? What are the mahou shoujo going to do? We don't yet know why the grief seeds are needed but we do know they are.

This means bad things for the mahou shojo. If its fatal, some of them would probably spend the last moments hunting down the wisher.

So?

Really, so? Even *if* the MG's die off without witches to kill(something that hasn't been established, fyi), that sacrifices a few to save the many... meaning the rest of humanity forevermore. So why are you so keen on seeing young girls and humanity continually tortured and killed?

Also, your comment only addresses that particular wish. I got a ton more that would solve the problem. And I'm sure a lot of people here could name some.

"I wish for a world where humanity lives without witches or the need for magical girls."

"I wish humanity was immune to witches." (Solves the little problem neatly; humanity is no longer at risk, but MG's can still hunt them... and do so safely!)

But the bottom line is: the fact that no MG yet has wished for anything like this, would be a huge gaping idiot ball. Hell, my wish as an MG? "I wish that no witch power or ability could ever harm me."

I can now hunt in safety.^^

[totoum]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Oh this is easy. You fell right into the trap there. Kyubei would be pleased

Now if you wished that, yes it would be fufilled but did you think of the consequences? No witch = no grief seeds? What are the mahou shoujo going to do? We don't yet know why the grief seeds are needed but we do know they are.

This means bad things for the mahou shojo. If its fatal, some of them would probably spend the last moments hunting down the wisher.

Exactly,for exemple if the MG become wishes theory is correct,the wisher would become a wish since she'd have no grief seed to purify her soul gem and the cycle would start all over again.

edit:

"I wish that no witch power or ability could ever harm me."

I can now hunt in safety.^^

You forgot to wish for no MG powers to hurt you,so watch out if MG like Kyoko unite against you and take you down

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

So?

Really, so? Even *if* the MG's die off without witches to kill(something that hasn't been established, fyi), that sacrifices a few to save the many... meaning the rest of humanity forevermore. So why are you so keen on seeing young girls and humanity continually tortured and killed?

The problem lies with the fact that we don't know WHY the grief seeds are needed. If the common guess that its used to prevent becoming a witch well, totoum already addressed this

Originally Posted by Kaijo

"I wish for a world where humanity lives without witches or the need for magical girls."

Or? Hmm isn't that 2 wishes? But lets go with this one.

Humanity lives without witches?
Granted. All witches banished for 1 day. They return after that. What? You never said anything about time limits

No need for magical girls? No problem, granted. Next stop magical guys!

Originally Posted by Kaijo

"I wish humanity was immune to witches." (Solves the little problem neatly; humanity is no longer at risk, but MG's can still hunt them... and do so safely!)

Granted! Could go with immune for 1 minute or witches being named warlocks or humanity being immune to the witches physical attacks but not the kiss. Well you never specified immune to what

Originally Posted by Kaijo

But the bottom line is: the fact that no MG yet has wished for anything like this, would be a huge gaping idiot ball. Hell, my wish as an MG? "I wish that no witch power or ability could ever harm me."

I can now hunt in safety.^^

totoum already gave one way to screw your wish.
Other easy choices: Absolutely you would get frozen instead. Hey you're not harmed. In fact lets throw in immortality while your frozen as a bonus

Unharmed sure, no problem. Oh forgot to tell you that the grief seeds don't drop for you. Side effect. Sorry!

You're not harmed? Ok no problem! Your closest friend/family takes the hit instead.

You probably never played D&D before. This is actually par for course when casting a wish spell. Those who played it know to write down their wish on paper and close all loopholes. I doubt most of the mahou shoujos have the time to do this

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by totoum

Exactly,for exemple if the MG become wishes theory is correct,the wisher would become a wish since she'd have no grief seed to purify her soul gem and the cycle would start all over again.

This statement, which I've seen repeated again and again, relies on two assumptions:

#1. That a soul gem would darken even without use.
#2. That an MG can become a wish.

Neither of which has been proven. But as long as we're making assumptions that can't be supported, I can advance the opposite: That soul gems only darken when used and that witches are only born from normal humans.

Of course, neither one of us can prove either one, but at least I recognize that. ^_~

You forgot to wish for no MG powers to hurt you,so watch out if MG like Kyoko unite against you and take you down

Heh, true. But such an MG would live far longer than other MG's. How about: "I wish I was immune to any witch or magical girl power or ability."

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

The problem lies with the fact that we don't know WHY the grief seeds are needed. If the common guess that its used to prevent becoming a witch well, totoum already addressed this

Uh, not quite. Mami says that the grief seeds remove the darkness from a soul gem, which darkens when it is used.

Or? Hmm isn't that 2 wishes? But lets go with this one.

Humanity lives without witches?
Granted. All witches banished for 1 day. They return after that. What? You never said anything about time limits

No need for magical girls? No problem, granted. Next stop magical guys!

You're actually being pedantic, while missing the forest for the trees. Sure, these wishes can be stated better... the whole point was: Why has no MG ever wished for these things before? If world resets and time travel are possible, then so should every wish I've mentioned. Who cares if they even have problems? They would have at least been attempted.

And in fact, all I need to do to cure your pendatry, is add the term "forevermore" or something to them. As in "Humans immune to witched forever" or "immune to witches and MG powers forever" etc. Problem solved.

So, you want to go pedantic again? Or do you want to address the actual issue? Hint: It has to do with these being possible because your time travel/world reset is possible. That was the only point I wanted to make.

totoum already gave one way to screw your wish.
Other easy choices: Absolutely you would get frozen instead. Hey you're not harmed. In fact lets throw in immortality while your frozen as a bonus

Unharmed sure, no problem. Oh forgot to tell you that the grief seeds don't drop for you. Side effect. Sorry!

You're not harmed? Ok no problem! Your closest friend/family takes the hit instead.

We've seen nothing that indicates such random effects are added to wishes. Indeed, the two we have seen, haven't had anything of the sort. In short, you're pulling things from your ass because you want me to be wrong, then from any sort of logical basis. I'd suggest saving this line of thought for if/when the show actually shows that wishes add such completely random and extra effects. When/if they occur, then you'll actually have an argument.

You probably never played D&D before. This is actually par for course when casting a wish spell. Those who played it know to write down their wish on paper and close all loopholes. I doubt most of the mahou shoujos have the time to do this

It only takes one. Statistically probability states that, given enough MG's and wishes, one will eventually make that wish. You may wish to look up the monkey on a typewriter theorem.

[Dark Wing]

You know what I really wish for?

That we'd get some conformations on some of these theories so we can stop going in circles with this debate already. Because as of right now the only thing this show has helped establish is that becoming a magical girl isn't all it's cracked up to be beyond that we know nothing and we are over a quarter of the way in.

[panzerfan]

Gott im himmel indeed, and all's right with the world.

My efforts generally tend to rest on the much dryer and abstract, being that of allusions from potential references. At this moment, the question of the mechanics in soul gem in relation to grief seeds to me is but syntax, and one that Gen Urobuchi will define or he cannot word his semantics successfully.

On the subject matter of hypothetical wishes that would pose paradoxical to Kyubey, remember that logical fallacy need not be encountered nor engaged by the actor. Mephistopheles in Marlowe's Faustus is one example of rendering the significant insignificant. Such exercise is rather that of for the viewers' own benefit, and there may be no reference to be had for an answer.

Homura at this moment... since I have invoked Marlowe, is about as cryptic as the Heavens in Marlowe's story. Merely making any potential wound go away and stating "homo, fuge!" leaves too much gap in itself. The only that this establishes is an opposition to the puella magi contract, with no clear position presented.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

You know what I really wish for?

That we'd get some conformations on some of these theories so we can stop going in circles with this debate already. Because as of right now the only thing this show has helped establish is that becoming a magical girl isn't all it's cracked up to be beyond that we know nothing and we are over a quarter of the way in.

I'm pretty sure it's going to keep building tension until episode 10 or 11, and only then we'll begin to understand what's really going on. On the time being we'll get just clues and hints, but not concrete answers.

Just my two cents!

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Uh, not quite. Mami says that the grief seeds remove the darkness from a soul gem, which darkens when it is used.

So? So why bother with removing the darkness? Got an answer for that?

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You're actually being pedantic, while missing the forest for the trees. Sure, these wishes can be stated better... the whole point was: Why has no MG ever wished for these things before? If world resets and time travel are possible, then so should every wish I've mentioned. Who cares if they even have problems? They would have at least been attempted.

And in fact, all I need to do to cure your pendatry, is add the term "forevermore" or something to them. As in "Humans immune to witched forever" or "immune to witches and MG powers forever" etc. Problem solved.

So, you want to go pedantic again? Or do you want to address the actual issue? Hint: It has to do with these being possible because your time travel/world reset is possible. That was the only point I wanted to make.

Adding forever more is a still complete fail because your wish wordings is just too poorly done. Still since you fail to understand what i was bring across through those examples, i will put it in a easy manner.

Some would have tried and using your poor wording, screwed themselves. The wish never bothers with what you really want only what you say.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

We've seen nothing that indicates such random effects are added to wishes. Indeed, the two we have seen, haven't had anything of the sort. In short, you're pulling things from your ass because you want me to be wrong, then from any sort of logical basis. I'd suggest saving this line of thought for if/when the show actually shows that wishes add such completely random and extra effects. When/if they occur, then you'll actually have an argument.

Heh you've never wondered why a contract is so detailed? Take a look at any user terms for any registration required website.

None of these are random. You wished for something i gve you wha you said, Nothing more nothing less. The real problem as referenced by Mami was that the spirit of the wish is not fufilled. Wish for another because you wanted them to like you? BEEEP! The wish functioned, but did you get what you really wanted? Sorry, no take backs.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It only takes one. Statistically probability states that, given enough MG's and wishes, one will eventually make that wish. You may wish to look up the monkey on a typewriter theorem.

Sorry the monkeys banging out shakespeare's works? That requires infinite time. So at the end of infinity, maybe some mahou shoujo will close the system

End of infinity. Think about that

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

You know what I really wish for?

That we'd get some conformations on some of these theories so we can stop going in circles with this debate already. Because as of right now the only thing this show has helped establish is that becoming a magical girl isn't all it's cracked up to be beyond that we know nothing and we are over a quarter of the way in.

I agree. I think there are a lot of interesting theories put forth, but personally, I'm not married to any of them. A lot of what I put forth is devil's advocate "hey, this could also be explained this way" type of stuff.

But this is the spoilers and speculation thread, created for the discussion of speculation, so that's what's gonna happen.

To me, it seems fairly straightforward as it is:

1. Have your wish granted and become a magical girl to fight witches, who prey upon normal humans. Doesn't seem to be anything too out of the ordinary with regards to wishes (no rules or bad side effects).

2. Defeat witches who occasionally drop grief seeds, which restore your magical power.

3. Watch out for other magical girls, who may want your territory and may attack you for it.

In short, it's not that much different from any more realistic superhero scenario. Indeed, I bet many of us all imagined getting superhero powers to fight crime. So to me, it doesn't seem real bad by itself... yet. The only bad spots are the normal human things that can happen in a normal human world.

Of course, more could be introduced to make it appear worse than it is, but I won't speculate as to what, because my imagination can come up with hundreds of ways to say, "It Got Worse."

[QUOTE=FlavorOfLife;3465206]So? So why bother with removing the darkness? Got an answer for that?

Um, yes. Mami says outright it restores their magical power. Suggest you watch the end of episode 2 again.

Adding forever more is a still complete fail because your wish wordings is just too poorly done. Still since you fail to understand what i was bring across through those examples, i will put it in a easy manner.

Some would have tried and using your poor wording, screwed themselves. The wish never bothers with what you really want only what you say.

And again, you assume it would come out badly because somehow an additional effect would be generated, when we have no inclination to think that's true. And also again, my point wasn't about the wishes themselves being poorly worded (and I even gave you that for the sake of argument!) My point was that something along these lines should have happened from an MG at some point. If World resets and time travel loops are possible with a wish, then so should these.

Heh you've never wondered why a contract is so detailed? Take a look at any user terms for any registration required website.

You don't really understand contracts, either. You know why they are so detailed? Because they want to remove the chance for lawsuits. That's why a hammer says "Do no ingest" because somewhere along the lines, someone tried to eat it and then sued since the manufacturer didn't include it. Also, lawyers like money, and when they can drag things out for adding more and more minutiae, they make more money.

But you can fulfill the spirit of a contract quite easily.

None of these are random.

One of your side effects was a friend or family member would get hit instead. That seems pretty out there. Why would this be the case? There's no logical reason for it. Had you said: "Well, perhaps that means when a witch goes to fire at you, the beam goes off course, and thus could strike someone else in the witch world with you." Now THAT would have made some sense.

Sorry the monkeys banging out shakespeare's works? That requires infinite time. So at the end of infinity, maybe some mahou shoujo will close the system

End of infinity. Think about that

Completely misunderstanding the theory. What it is supposed to represent, is that the closer you get to infinity, the closer the percentage chance reaches 1. Realistically speak, that means that the odds of something happening will happen long before it reaches infinity. The odds that someone will get a royal flush in poker is fairly low, but if you deal enough decks, someone is going to get one eventually.

That's all I'm saying here. You don't need infinity; just enough MG's and wishes, before the odds are that at least one girl will try making a wish that solves the system.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Of course, neither one of us can prove either one, but at least I recognize that. ^_~

Just to sure we're on the same page,I recognise that too , that's why I said " if the MG become wishes theory is correct", I know that at this point it's just a theory that hasn't been proven

[Seihai]

Damn it, there's so many good theories (didn't read everything either, too much text for my taste) I wish that Madoka Magica would be subject in my Germany A levels. It even got valuable motives such as related to Faust. It's definitely holding up enough aspects to hold up at least a few school lessons. Despite the fact that it's for entertainment, but so are theatres. Now excuse me as I go back to my boring philology material for tomorrow's class.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by totoum

Just to sure we're on the same page,I recognise that too , that's why I said " if the MG become wishes theory is correct", I know that at this point it's just a theory that hasn't been proven

Then you're one of the smarter ones here. ;p Sometimes I feel that we're all overthinking, this, too, which is a possibility. Hell, try analyzing Evangelion, and that's been completed! Sometimes, things are weird just to be weird. Or, "sometimes a cake is just a cake."

[panzerfan]

@Vanish: MeoTwister5 and I perhaps share this sentiment. Plays are every bit as for amusement as are anime. Ti's but the use of medium to express concepts. I am still anxious if Gen will dare tread and declare his view of Faust the naive as playwrights have had in centuries past, or all of this is just a ruse.

I actually have the flight of fancy in forming a notion that a form of metaworld may exist where the plights of prepubescent girls are played as pieces... nothing support such a wild whim, so I shan't develop this any further.

By the way, if perchance you are analyzing Nihilism or Egoism, I would like to hear of your assessment of Kyoko. It piques my interests so.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

This statement, which I've seen repeated again and again, relies on two assumptions:

#1. That a soul gem would darken even without use.
#2. That an MG can become a wish.

Neither of which has been proven. But as long as we're making assumptions that can't be supported, I can advance the opposite: That soul gems only darken when used and that witches are only born from normal humans.

Of course, neither one of us can prove either one, but at least I recognize that. ^_~

The chief argument I can find against the soul gem most likely not darkening without use is because the MG the "reward" MG get for killing witches is to take away the darkness. So that raises the question why don't Mami/Homura just stop fighting witches if they gain the same benefit from fighting and not fighting. If their is no real consequence for not fighting then why do they job if they don't particularly like it. I don't see the show generally trying to show these girls as selfless so I wonder about their reasoning here. The theme of the show so far generally leads me to believe that its not going the altruistic superhero route with these MG's.

MG becoming a wish has no real evidence either way so I think it certainly open to theorizing. We have extremely limited knowledge of the boundaries of Kyubey's wishing granting.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

The chief argument I can find against the soul gem most likely not darkening without use is because the MG the "reward" MG get for killing witches is to take away the darkness. So that raises the question why don't Mami/Homura just stop fighting witches if they gain the same benefit from fighting and not fighting. If their is no real consequence for not fighting then why do they job if they don't particularly like it. I don't see the show generally trying to show these girls as selfless so I wonder about their reasoning here. The theme of the show so far generally leads me to believe that its not going the altruistic superhero route with these MG's.

MG becoming a wish has no real evidence either way so I think it certainly open to theorizing. We have extremely limited knowledge of the boundaries of Kyubey's wishing granting.

You hit the nail on the head, identifying the problem that some of us have been discussing: How do you keep an MG fighting? Currently, there is no way to do that, short of Kyube canceling the contract, which might entail wish-revoking. For Mami, this means death, but for other MG's like Sayaka, it is doable.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Um, yes. Mami says outright it restores their magical power. Suggest you watch the end of episode 2 again.

So, why restore that power? You got your wish? Why need your power?
Oh before the inevitably obvious answer from you and needing another post to jog the logic -> Why fight Witches? Why not run away?

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You don't really understand contracts, either. You know why they are so detailed? Because they want to remove the chance for lawsuits. That's why a hammer says "Do no ingest" because somewhere along the lines, someone tried to eat it and then sued since the manufacturer didn't include it. Also, lawyers like money, and when they can drag things out for adding more and more minutiae, they make more money.

But you can fulfill the spirit of a contract quite easily.

Heh, and i could then sue you for breach of contract if your contract did not state the terms clearly. Spirit of the contract? Is the judge supposed to know the spirit of the contract? What is the basis for law and why the heck are the law books so many? Can i admit evidence gathered through illegal means such as breaking into someone's computer without a court order? Its the spirit iof justice and everything right?

Originally Posted by Kaijo

One of your side effects was a friend or family member would get hit instead. That seems pretty out there. Why would this be the case? There's no logical reason for it. Had you said: "Well, perhaps that means when a witch goes to fire at you, the beam goes off course, and thus could strike someone else in the witch world with you." Now THAT would have made some sense.

Sure no problem, the beam gets directed out to the real world aka someone dies. Your realtives for more impact

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And again, you assume it would come out badly because somehow an additional effect would be generated, when we have no inclination to think that's true. And also again, my point wasn't about the wishes themselves being poorly worded (and I even gave you that for the sake of argument!) My point was that something along these lines should have happened from an MG at some point. If World resets and time travel loops are possible with a wish, then so should these.

Completely misunderstanding the theory. What it is supposed to represent, is that the closer you get to infinity, the closer the percentage chance reaches 1. Realistically speak, that means that the odds of something happening will happen long before it reaches infinity. The odds that someone will get a royal flush in poker is fairly low, but if you deal enough decks, someone is going to get one eventually.

That's all I'm saying here. You don't need infinity; just enough MG's and wishes, before the odds are that at least one girl will try making a wish that solves the system.

Lumping these 2 parts together because they are answered by the same answer. What does 1 represent?
What does 0.5 represent?
Does a 0.5 chance always happen?
Can a 0.9 chance NOT happen?

So when does something happen for sure?
Does that take infinity?

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

So, why restore that power? You got your wish? Why need your power?
Oh before the inevitably obvious answer from you and needing another post to jog the logic -> Why fight Witches? Why not run away?

You'll note that's a question that several of us have postulated. We know that some MG's would really like having that power, but you're right; there would be girls that wouldn't want to fight anymore. If one could simply stop anytime, then Homura wouldn't be so desperate to stop Madoka from becoming one. Several of us have postulated theories.

Let's hope the writers answer the question.

Heh, and i could then sue you for breach of contract if your contract did not state the terms clearly. Spirit of the contract? Is the judge supposed to know the spirit of the contract? What is the basis for law and why the heck are the law books so many? Can i admit evidence gathered through illegal means such as breaking into someone's computer without a court order? Its the spirit iof justice and everything right?

Lawyer contracts are not Kyube contracts, thus there's no analogy.

Sure no problem, the beam gets directed out to the real world

I'll take your own reasoning: show me an attack leaving the witches world and heading into the real world.^^

Lumping these 2 parts together because they are answered by the same answer. What does 1 represent?
What does 0.5 represent?
Does a 0.5 chance always happen?
Can a 0.9 chance NOT happen?

So when does something happen for sure?
Does that take infinity?

1 is basically 100% in scientific terms. Let me explain it this way. I put you in a long room, and tell you that there is a prize when you reach the other side. However, I tell you the max distance you can ever move at once, is halfway. So, if the room is 100 feet long, you can only move a max of 50 feet in the first trip. Then 25 feet. Then 12 and a half feet.

See where I'm going?

Mathematically speaking, you'll never reach the far end of the room, because you can always divide a number in half, thus leaving you with some distance between you and the wall. Practically speaking, though, you'll get close enough to touch it.

This is what the theorem represents, since you can't actually reach infinity. You can, however, travel far enough to reach it for all practical intents and purposes. This is what I wanted to illustrate with my poker example. If I deal you five cards at random, the odds that you'll get a royal flush is incredibly low. However, if I can sit there and deal a hand to you over and over for as long as I like, eventually I'm going to deal you a royal flush. The chance goes up as time passes.

Understand? The more time passes, and the more individual MG's make wishes (and we have no idea how long this has been going on), the greater the chance that one MG will think about how she can end the sad system with a single wish. Or even if it takes more than one wish, she can seek out other potential MG's, explain the situation, and see if they'll help add a wish that can further correct it.