Schwarzesmarken - Novel Discussion

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

Kirke is absolute love. Carnelian's propensity to make women who appeal to me in almost all ways is disturbing, but welcome.

Are you referring to Kirke's character design or what she does in the story? I'd certainly like to learn more about the characters of Schwarzesmarken, but English info about them is understandably scarce. I personally liked Sylvia's character design the best but it seems she's a minor character, sadly. The best I can hope for is there to be an eroge (Carnelian's illustration specialty) adaptation that lets Theodor choose her as the main heroine.

Does that book include the rest of the Carnelian illustrations featured in the novels thus far? Those have also been very hard to find.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

Her character design, mostly. Although her "cool beauty" archetype is fine too, though most of what she did so far involves saving 666th ass, then ranting about those Ostland commie scum and then making up with Theodore after some stuff happens.

Yeah, Sylwia (her name is supposed to be spelled with "w", since Polish doesn't actively use "v" letter, with "w" pretty much replacing it phonetically - just a minor tidbit) is a pretty minor character, but with a rather horrific backstory. It will make you actively hate Russians, and root for BETA when they're chewing through them.

I wouldn't know - I don't actually own the novels, so I have no idea what illustrations are in them. I only have the TSFiA.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

Her character design, mostly. Although her "cool beauty" archetype is fine too, though most of what she did so far involves saving 666th ass, then ranting about those Ostland commie scum and then making up with Theodore after some stuff happens.

I'm confused; does "cool beauty" mean a character who is kuudere or something else? And is it realistic for these "Sozialitische Teutons" to have so many high-ranking characters who hate the Stasi or East Germany's government without them being killed or sent to re-education death camps? Come to think of it, Kirke looks too Asian to be a native Eastern German--does she have an ancestor from a communist Asian country in her backstory, or is she from an Asian country and has just adopted a German name?

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

Yeah, Sylwia (her name is supposed to be spelled with "w", since Polish doesn't actively use "v" letter, with "w" pretty much replacing it phonetically - just a minor tidbit) is a pretty minor character, but with a rather horrific backstory. It will make you actively hate Russians, and root for BETA when they're chewing through them.

Yep, by the time of the Total Eclipse anime, the Russians have been reduced to a "rump state" in Alaska. Still, as Total Eclipse shows, there were a few good ones among them (I'm still sore over Fikatskia Iatrova myself) who didn't deserve it, but I doubt many of them are in Schwarzesmarken.

As of the writing of this post, the main Schwarzesmarken website has updated the splash page with a sample illustration from the 29th chapter, and things look pretty grim for Liz (though the chapter summaries page STILL hasn't been updated past ch. 24). That chapter has a release date of May 2013.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

She's a kuudere until she starts talking; at which point she becomes somewhat more...vicious.

Also, I should have made it more clear - she's West German, so she's beyond Stasi's jurisdiction. She's part of Huckebein Squadron, which flies the F-5Gs that were popping up here and there.

And I don't think she looks Asian at all, barring the art convention. Long black hair is in no way unique to that part of the world. Not common, sure, but frequent enough to not be considered unique. Neither is slim athletic build. Not every European woman looks like Irisdina.

The illustrations are up until vol. 23 of the novel. The one in which Liz gets flak from rest of the 666th with Theodore defending her is pretty much the last major illustration.


It's kinda funny whenever Latorova ends up being brought up - I agree that she's much more morally upstanding than most Soviet officers, but I *still* cannot agree to most of what she's saying.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

She's a kuudere until she starts talking; at which point she becomes somewhat more...vicious. Also, I should have made it more clear - she's West German, so she's beyond Stasi's jurisdiction.

Yeah, but we still have people like Irisdina, Katia, and Theodor, who are either are plotting against the Stasi or have a big anticommunist secret. In addition, Gretel (the unit's political officer) turns a blind eye to all this--in reality the most of the Schwarzesmarken cast would have been swiftly court-martialled and given their "last 9 millimeters" (execution via a 9mm Makarov pistol shot to the back of the head).

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

And I don't think she looks Asian at all, barring the art convention. Long black hair is in no way unique to that part of the world. Not common, sure, but frequent enough to not be considered unique.

The hair, skin tone, and "anime girl" hair ornaments that "Carnelian-sensei" chose for Kirke definitely makes me think of East Asians, anyway (or at least East Asians portrayed in anime). In any case she looks too much like a standard "anime girl" for a gritty and more-realistic prequel to MuvLuv. Liz has her twintails and hairbows, but that's shorthand for her imouto status (I would be interested in what she'd look like with a more "period-accurate" hairstyle).

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

Not every European woman looks like Irisdina.

You're telling me; if Irisdina was real she'd likely be a supermodel. She may not have the 96G bust size that Carnelian often liked to give her adult women characters in the past, but her proportions definitely put her into the "I can't believe she's not the Goddess Venus walking this Earth" category.

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

The illustrations are up until vol. 23 of the novel. The one in which Liz gets flak from rest of the 666th with Theodore defending her is pretty much the last major illustration.

Do you have any details of what's going on in that scene? I know it comes after Liz ambushes Theodor in this room while wearing nothing but her birthday suit.

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

It's kinda funny whenever Latorova ends up being brought up - I agree that she's much more morally upstanding than most Soviet officers, but I *still* cannot agree to most of what she's saying.

I'm a YuuyaxCryska shipper myself, but Latrova would have been quite intriguing.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

It's kinda funny whenever Latorova ends up being brought up - I agree that she's much more morally upstanding than most Soviet officers, but I *still* cannot agree to most of what she's saying.

I dunno, I quite like Latrova, but I don't fully agree to what she says. Neither does Yuuya, inasfar as I see - he didn't quite take all of what she said to heart, but reconciled that with his own beliefs...

Or that's how I remember it; I'll probably need to go back and rewatch TE.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

I dunno, I quite like Latrova, but I don't fully agree to what she says. Neither does Yuuya, inasfar as I see - he didn't quite take all of what she said to heart, but reconciled that with his own beliefs...

Or that's how I remember it; I'll probably need to go back and rewatch TE.

I thought it was more that Mother Russia showed him the way of the world, removing the pink clouds of self-centerness he had.

From what I hear from those who have read the novels this is touched on more than in the anime, thus the anime only shows the more direct parts.

Its not so much she is morally upstanding or anything, just that she has her set of rules, and she stands by them to the best reality allows. Leads by example.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

Aaaahhhhh, those Teutons

Well, there have been some theories floating around. To be honest, without there being major novel translations, I can't vouch for them, but here they are:

Spoiler for Schwarz 101:

Apparently, Gretel is reporting Irisdina and co. ...but her reports end up landing on the desk of Irisdina's superior, the commander of Hannibal group. Thing is, he's one of the central figures in the entire anti-DDR plot, so all the evidence goes to the shredder, or altered, with all incriminating parts removed. Stasi presumably suspects everything, which is why Beatrix is always in the background, trying to get some solid evidence. Or Gretel had mellowed out, and is consciously editing her reports in a way to make them less suspicious...which I sincerely doubt, given that she's a complete bitch 95% of the time.

There's also the question of pragmatism - the 666th is one of the best units in the NVA, which is currently backed against the wall against the BETA. Take them out, and East Germany looses a very significant, capable asset, which cannot be replaced - it's just how bad attrition had become.

In addition, the rest of the Army apparently sees the Schwarzesmarken as either heroes or party goons. Have them killed, and NVA will begin to openly question their loyalty to the state. This is something that Stasi cannot afford, if they want to keep the war going...of course, Beatrix doesn't really look like a sort of person who cares.

As for Liz, I think she's getting cold shoulder/bulling from rest of the team, given the paranoia that's she's Stasi spy. Given that she was supposed to be dead until very recently...yeah.

---

It's funny, but the whole "white pale skin" trick in Japanese media is not very correlating to reality. Most East-Asians (many Japanese included) tend to have skin tone darker than Europeans; thing is, Japanese really dig the whole white color thing. But that's a completely different discussion.

Also, her design is not unusual if we take into account that Kirke was born in West Germany - a country not actively defending its borders. Yes, they send troops and materiel to the DDR, but in limited quantities. So they're not stuck in perpetual war situation as East - there's likely no rationing, no full-time draft...you don't spend all your time in the base doing drills or avoiding StateSec or Russians from raping you. Kirke's probably a volunteer pilot who spent her time doing drills, regular training and then having time off in the local German town, picking up guys or whatever German babe pilots do with their time off.

And no. Please. 80's hairdos are dead for a reason. Don't bring them back.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

There's also the question of pragmatism - the 666th is one of the best units in the NVA, which is currently backed against the wall against the BETA. Take them out, and East Germany looses a very significant, capable asset, which cannot be replaced - it's just how bad attrition had become.

I would think that's the sort of thing that motivates "evil higher-ups" to send the 666th on more and more suicide missions. It's not like they can refuse, right?

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

In addition, the rest of the Army apparently sees the Schwarzesmarken as either heroes or party goons. Have them killed, and NVA will begin to openly question their loyalty to the state. This is something that Stasi cannot afford, if they want to keep the war going...of course, Beatrix doesn't really look like a sort of person who cares.

I hope that the novel translations will clear this all up soon.

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

As for Liz, I think she's getting cold shoulder/bulling from rest of the team, given the paranoia that's she's Stasi spy. Given that she was supposed to be dead until very recently...yeah.

So is Chapter 20 of the light novel series then supposed to be a flashback? The sample illustrations show Liz and Theodor in school uniforms.

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

It's funny, but the whole "white pale skin" trick in Japanese media is not very correlating to reality. Most East-Asians (many Japanese included) tend to have skin tone darker than Europeans; thing is, Japanese really dig the whole white color thing. But that's a completely different discussion.

Kirke's "East-Asian-black" hair is still remarkably rare amongst ethnic Germans, I would think.

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

Also, her design is not unusual if we take into account that Kirke was born in West Germany - a country not actively defending its borders.

I take it that as events progressed, that situation would change for the worse as the BETAs chewed their way through East Germany.

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

Kirke's probably a volunteer pilot who spent her time doing drills, regular training and then having time off in the local German town, picking up guys or whatever German babe pilots do with their time off.

Including getting an "anime-girl" butterfly hair ornament.

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

And no. Please. 80's hairdos are dead for a reason. Don't bring them back.

I doubt the East Germans, deprived as they were of 1st-World Media in the 1980s, would be exposed to famous fashion trends as the rest of the 1st World was. How old is Liz anyway? In reality, twintails and hair bows almost always get put away after girls get past 12 years of age.

[grevierr]

Is there any A-10 kit pgs in TSFiA vol6? Would appreciate scans if there are.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

I would think that's the sort of thing that motivates "evil higher-ups" to send the 666th on more and more suicide missions. It's not like they can refuse, right?

Well, it's not like most of their missions are unnecessary - the whole Laserjagd missions are an important part of East German tactics.

As for the danger level...well, it's no more dangerous than being Fried Chicken, Stasi or no Stasi.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

So is Chapter 20 of the light novel series then supposed to be a flashback? The sample illustrations show Liz and Theodor in school uniforms.

At least part of it, yes.

According to Theodore's memories, both Liz and his adoptive family were all executed by Stasi, after they tried to cross the Berlin Wall.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Kirke's "East-Asian-black" hair is still remarkably rare amongst ethnic Germans, I would think.

It depends on personal perceptions; I don't see it at all as "East-Asian Black". Black hair is black, and it's hard to say how it would really look like; Gretel has almost exact hair color for example, and she's 100% ethnic German. I'll admit, Kirke's hairstyle is somewhat Japanese (with exception of the corckscrew ponytail...thing), but that might come down to personal preference. Plus, as I said, black hair is uncommon in Germany, but not ultra-rare. Between 15% to 20% of Germans in southern areas has black hair; almost all of south Germany is in the "West German" sphere. Kirke is West German.

Unless Kire gives a huge exposition on her family though, this will never get "canonically" solved.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

I take it that as events progressed, that situation would change for the worse as the BETAs chewed their way through East Germany.

I'm not so sure. Muv-Luv shows that humans will always be the enemy of other humans, and historically, West-East German relationship were *really* bad. To put it into perspective, until late 70s/early 80s RFA did not consider DDR as sovereign country. It was called "The so-called Eastern Germany" and "Undemocratic Ungerman Dictatorship" among others.

Schwarzemarken show that West Germany is *still* treated with highest order of prejudice, given how they go out of their way to lock them out of East-German communications during joint operations, beyond what's absolutely necessary to coordinate army movements. That, and Western troops are still treated as borderline enemies, even as they're saving NVA's ass outta fire.

That gives some food for thought.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Including getting an "anime-girl" butterfly hair ornament.

It's something you can get in most stores selling these kind of ornaments.

Besides, to me Carnelian-sama is trying to channel "cool foreign beauty"...but you're already in a story where everyone is a cool foreign beauty.
So, Japanese style ho!

And it's not like Schwarzemarken is wholly realistic about those things. I mean, silver hair is not a legitimate hair color for Polish women unless they dye it, for example.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

I doubt the East Germans, deprived as they were of 1st-World Media in the 1980s, would be exposed to famous fashion trends as the rest of the 1st World was. How old is Liz anyway? In reality, twintails and hair bows almost always get put away after girls get past 12 years of age.

You'd be surprised; West German television and radio could have been picked up by commercially-available radios and TVs in East Germany. Jamming it wasn't an option, because that would jam broadcasts in West Germany. The only region where you couldn't pick up those broadcasts was Dresden.

Also, Liz is somewhat younger than Theodore. By a few years, not sure how much exactly.

@Grevierr

Sadly, there aren't any.

[grevierr]

Thats too bad. Needed more references before I build my A-10. Managed to snag a Type-94-1C with Railgun for 15000 yen as well... might make a clone to give to my A-10...

Someone said more dakka? A-10 with type-99 cannons?

Come Jul, going for summer wonderfest to pick up the full armor version of the A-10 by someguy who sculpted his own...

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Kirke's "East-Asian-black" hair is still remarkably rare amongst ethnic Germans, I would think.

Your "thought" is one of ignorance. Only 50% of Germans can be considered "blond", with the other half being half brown and half black. Furthermore, south of the Weißwurstäquator Germans tend to have the "Alpine" characteristics as opposed to the "Nordic" characteristics of the Germans north of the Weißwurstäquator.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Your "thought" is one of ignorance. Only 50% of Germans can be considered "blond", with the other half being half brown and half black. Furthermore, south of the Weißwurstäquator Germans tend to have the "Alpine" characteristics as opposed to the "Nordic" characteristics of the Germans north of the Weißwurstäquator.

Okay, I haven't been to Germany itself. What do you mean by "Alpine" and Weißwurstäquator then?

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

It depends on personal perceptions; I don't see it at all as "East-Asian Black". Black hair is black, and it's hard to say how it would really look like; Gretel has almost exact hair color for example, and she's 100% ethnic German.

Oops, forgot about Gretel. Then again, she's certainly not as visually striking as many Carnelian characters.

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

I'm not so sure. Muv-Luv shows that humans will always be the enemy of other humans, and historically, West-East German relationship were *really* bad. To put it into perspective, until late 70s/early 80s RFA did not consider DDR as sovereign country. It was called "The so-called Eastern Germany" and "Undemocratic Ungerman Dictatorship" among others.

At least that's realistic. The propaganda war between the two Germanies was pretty fierce in the day.

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

Besides, to me Carnelian-sama is trying to channel "cool foreign beauty"...but you're already in a story where everyone is a cool foreign beauty. So, Japanese style ho!

Yeah, the Japanese have some strange ideas about people outside of Japan at times. But I think you mean "every female character" in this series is a "cool foreign beauty."

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

And it's not like Schwarzemarken is wholly realistic about those things. I mean, silver hair is not a legitimate hair color for Polish women unless they dye it, for example.

There is premature greying in real life, and albinism which causes your hair to be white no matter your age, but Sylwia doesn't look like the latter. Oh well, I think her hair is just visual shorthand for someone who's been through a great trauma and isn't living life in the full sense of the phrase.

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

You'd be surprised; West German television and radio could have been picked up by commercially-available radios and TVs in East Germany. Jamming it wasn't an option, because that would jam broadcasts in West Germany. The only region where you couldn't pick up those broadcasts was Dresden.

I'm surprised the Communist authorities didn't take the route of making only wired TV and audio transmissions legal (so they could control the flow of news better), while making antenna-using TVs and Radios illegal. Still, twintails and hairbows doesn't look very professional to me anyway, and if the series were more realistic they'd all be wearing pilot helmets.

Any chance we'll get more scans from the Schwarzesmarken TSFIA from you soon?

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Okay, I haven't been to Germany itself. What do you mean by "Alpine" and Weißwurstäquator then?

Alpine: Historical race concept, with counterparts being Nordic and Mediterranean.. Relatively shorter than Nordic, with dark hair (brown and black).
Weißwurstäquator: Supposed cultural boundary separating Southern Germany, especially Bavaria, from Central Germany.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

You don't really need helmets when the entire HuD is supposedly projected onto your retina anyway - and if your TSF gets hit, well, it's unlikely that any helmet would help against repeated Grappler strikes. So why bother with the cost?

Plus, helmets are hardly heroic ;p


As for the scans - I'll probably hold off for the time. I no longer have a direct access to a scanner, and it'll be some time before I do again, and will also have the time to actually sit down and do it properly.

[LeoXiao]

They ought to translate this into German, I'd read it in a heartbeat.

[wavehawk]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

They ought to translate this into German, I'd read it in a heartbeat.

- German, nothing. Why not translate this (as in formally, by a proper publisher, into English? It's the international---"

Illfriede: "Scheiße Englisch!" (storms off)

...Right.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

...Funny, I recall that there used to be a doujin/semi-official piece of work which showed Three German Babes meeting French Taiga and speaking to her in English; and her barking back the equivalent phrase in French.

[Timsel]

Second chapter of Schwarzesmaken "Land of the Dead Gods" - in Russian.

My apologies for English speakers, but I can do only that I can do

http://full-metal-panic.ru/forum/vie...hp?f=70&t=5370

Maybe at least Alastor Mobius Toth as fellow Slavonian can read this.