Ore no Imouto - Episode 7 Discussion / Poll

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Mentar

In Oreimo, even the author herself considers Kirino insufferable. That's a small but decisive difference.

I've been wondering...why does everyone think Fushimi-sensei's a woman? The Japanese wikipedia notes that it's a guy, and interviews definitely don't leave any room for doubt...

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But when Kyousuke balked at Kirino's "get hit by a car" request, she didn't laugh. She didn't even seem amused. Actually, she seemed irritated. It vividly reminded me of Haruhi getting irritated when some of her directing commands during the making of the Mikuru movie where not met to Haruhi's satisfaction. And Haruhi's irritation there was very much real, so I can't help but feel that maybe Kirino's irritation is for real as well.

WORD. This is precisely why I can't stand Kirino or Haruhi...

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by karice67

I've been wondering...why does everyone think Fushimi-sensei's a woman? The Japanese wikipedia notes that it's a guy, and interviews definitely don't leave any room for doubt...

So the writer for the source material for this is male? Thanks for the info.

WORD. This is precisely why I can't stand Kirino or Haruhi...

At this point, I probably should explain how I can be a big Haruhi fan, but not be that fond of Kirino (yet).

Spoiler for Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu comparison:

In the Haruhi anime, there's a few times when she's truly dere towards Kyon (there's a few instances where she flashes these sweet smiles at him, for example). It's not much, but at least it's something to grab unto and see where a caring heart is coming through. With Kirino, I haven't seen anything on par with that, yet. If and when Kirino shows a softer side of herself to her brother, I might start to like her a lot, just as I like Haruhi a lot.

I've heard it said that a good tsundere is like a good french fry - enjoyably crispy on the outside, but endearingly soft on the inside. That analogy I get. The problem is that with out the soft inside, it's like biting into hard bread, which isn't as fun as eating a french fry is.

[karice67]

^

Spoiler for Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu comparison:

I have to admit I liked Haruhi a lot more with just the first season myself, because there was a pretty nice balance between her tsun and dere sides. It was the Sighs arc that annoyed me...although I still enjoyed the absurdity of seeing sakura in September (in the anime, of course)

Kirino doesn't have that kind of redeeming feature, she thoroughly irritates me at least partially because there's someone quite similar in my life in terms of the "demand instead of ask nicely" side (this person does say thank you). I'm still waiting for Kyousuke to slap her, just once...though I'm sure that's not going to happen.

at the french fry vs hard bread analogy...but it kinda works!

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by karice67

^

Spoiler for Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu comparison:

I have to admit I liked Haruhi a lot more with just the first season myself, because there was a pretty nice balance between her tsun and dere sides. It was the Sighs arc that annoyed me...although I still enjoyed the absurdity of seeing sakura in September (in the anime, of course)

Kirino doesn't have that kind of redeeming feature, she thoroughly irritates me at least partially because there's someone quite similar in my life in terms of the "demand instead of ask nicely" side (this person does say thank you). I'm still waiting for Kyousuke to slap her, just once...though I'm sure that's not going to happen.

at the french fry vs hard bread analogy...but it kinda works!

Spoiler for Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu comparison:

Not to bring the off-topic further, but this does get me thinking. If the 2009 airing of SHnY (in chronological order AND with the Sighs arc) was the first version that everyone saw in 2006 instead of the random order....would what people be saying of Haruhi after 7 episodes be similar to what they're saying about Kirino now?

[klare]

like how Kuroneko pretends to act like Kirino

hope this is not about brother-sister love, but after this eps it seems inevitable...

[ion475]

Spoiler for Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu Comparison:

Not to bring the off-topic further, but this does get me thinking. If the 2009 airing of SHnY (in chronological order AND with the Sighs arc) was the first version that everyone saw in 2006 instead of the random order....would what people be saying of Haruhi after 7 episodes be similar to what they're saying about Kirino now?

Spoiler for Toradora Comparison:

Going off topic also, but I was thinking about the same thing when people compare Taiga with Kirino...after first 7 episodes of Toradora, is Taiga really any better than Kirino? (Granted, there is a reason why Ryuji just do whatever Taiga told him to...)

That and the dynamic of Oreimo is just different...siblings relation is just not the same as friend (well, schoolmate) relation.

hope this is not about brother-sister love, but after this eps it seems inevitable...

Repeating for the million time that Oreimo is just not about incest relationship...sure there are some romantic comedy / harem element involved, but at the end it's more about otaku and sibling relation more than anything...

[Haak]

Spoiler for Toradora comparison:

I don't recall Taiga constantly forcing Ryuuji to do anything for her unless it was genuinely part of the deal they made and even then it wasn't anything unreasonable. In fact by episode 3, Taiga had already tried helping Ryuuji out.

[relentlessflame]

I explained this yesterday, but:

Originally Posted by Spoiler Policy

Spoilers are permitted in limited circumstances, provided that they are posted under clearly marked spoiler tags. These exceptions include:

• Comparing one story to another, when such comparisons are useful or informative. (These spoiler tags must always be labeled with the name of the other work whose spoilers it contains.)

I don't have time to edit posts like I just did, so posts that violate this rule going forward will just be deleted.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think that you dismiss Itlandm's point too easily.

The "get hit by a car" scene never felt comedic to me (aside from Kyousuke's explosive reaction to it, of course). If Kirino was just joking around, you'd expect her to start laughing once Kyousuke made his explosive reaction. I mean, that's typically how jokes like this work - You say something so outrageous that it can't possibly be serious, but because of your deadpan delivery another person takes it serious and responds with outrage, and then you both have a chuckle over how you managed to get him or her to buy what you said.

But when Kyousuke balked at Kirino's "get hit by a car" request, she didn't laugh. She didn't even seem amused. Actually, she seemed irritated. It vividly reminded me of Haruhi getting irritated when some of her directing commands during the making of the Mikuru movie where not met to Haruhi's satisfaction. And Haruhi's irritation there was very much real, so I can't help but feel that maybe Kirino's irritation is for real as well.

I believe I have every reason to dismiss this point. The deadpan delivery is what makes it funny in the first place, I don't see how you guys missed this or why you're now attributing murderous intent to Kirino. After her tsundere scene about giving a present to someone you love, you would think that all her outrageous requests are really just her way of getting attention from Kyousuke. Of course it isn't the best way to go about it, but it's apparently the only way she knows after years of neglect. Say what you will, but I don't believe we'll come to a consensus on this.

Also for the record, Kirino isn't Haruhi. While we can make some direct/indirect comparisons between these two characters, they also have completely different motivations.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Episode 7 suggests to me that maybe Kirino is having difficulties telling reality apart from fantasy or fiction. The fact that she's trying to get closer to her brother by re-enacting key eroge scenes shows that maybe this is the case. And there's no comedy in her dumping a bucket of water unto herself during a cold wintery day. Even the background music for this scene makes it clear that we're meant to take this seriously.

And with all of this in mind, I'm not entirely sure what to make of the "get hit by a car" scene myself. Now, maybe it's just bad execution on the anime's part (if they wanted the scene to be taken as a joke on Kirino's part, they probably should have shown her at least crack a grin after Kyousuke took her command seriously). But given how the scene plays out in the anime, it feels a bit weird to me.

I don't think that Kirino really, truly wants her brother to get killed in a car accident.

But then, she is perhaps a bit emotionally disturbed, and maybe that's what the audience is meant to take away from the "get hit by a car" scene.

I'm honestly just a little surprised that we're even discussing this seriously but not entirely

It seems to me that Kirino is just an inexperienced 14 year old girl. As far as we know Kirino doesn't have a boyfriend and I don't think it would be difficult to conclude that she has never had one. While she's trying to get closer to Kyousuke all she knows is eroge. Even in the very first episode Kirino tells Kyousuke to keep 2D and 3D separate so I'd like to believe that Kirino is very much aware of the differences.

Also if you've noticed, Kirino only has female friends and we've yet to see any real interaction between her and a male aside from Kyousuke. Like I said, the only interaction Kirino knows is from her eroge when dealing with a loved one (referring to the opposite sex of course.) Now whether that be brotherly or romantically is another story but that's besides the point. From my perspective, I can understand why she's using eroge as a reference if we consider her naive outlook on a relationship between a male and a female.

The "bucket of water" scene was meant to be taken serious because Kyousuke stated that Kirino was only writing her novel out of self-satisfaction and Kirino proved him wrong by using the bucket of water. Admittedly this was a bit extreme but that's how Kirino's character is written so it's consistent with her personality. One thing about Kirino is that she is always driven and determined so she found it insulting when Kyousuke challenged her, the difference this time is that she didn't scream at him or threaten him. Instead Kirino found a way to prove her intentions were genuine.

Hmmm, maybe Kirino has developed some since episode 1

[musouka]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

I believe I have every reason to dismiss this point. The deadpan delivery is what makes it funny in the first place, I don't see how you guys missed this or why you're now attributing murderous intent to Kirino.

A scene being played for laughs is not the same as the characters involved in the scene joking around. Kirino didn't have murderous intent--otherwise she would have just pushed him in front of a vehicle instead of asking--but that doesn't mean she was just pulling his leg about it either.

Kirino is usually one of my absolute favorite types of characters, but I don't like her very much. I don't think she's a potential murderer or anything, but I think the show has been letting her off the hook too easily and that's a turn off.

[sikvod00]

Originally Posted by musouka

A scene being played for laughs is not the same as the characters involved in the scene joking around. Kirino didn't have murderous intent--otherwise she would have just pushed him in front of a vehicle instead of asking--but that doesn't mean she was just pulling his leg about it either.

So wait. Do you truly believe Kirino wanted her brother to get hit by a car? That's too far-fetched; it's way more reasonable to see it as a facetious remark reflecting the general disdain she still holds for him.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Spoiler for Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu comparison:

Not to bring the off-topic further, but this does get me thinking. If the 2009 airing of SHnY (in chronological order AND with the Sighs arc) was the first version that everyone saw in 2006 instead of the random order....would what people be saying of Haruhi after 7 episodes be similar to what they're saying about Kirino now?

Spoiler:

Well, I'd think she was a bitch regardless. However, Haruhi would still be by far a superior character no matter how one slices and dices it, as at least the first arc already establishes her motivations and background in a convincing manner. Haruhi's behavior can be clearly explained, and while I don't condone her behavior, I can certainly live with it.

On the other hand, I don't watch the show for Haruhi anyways as my interest in her pretty much waned past Melancholy. Perhaps it's the same here? Unfortunately, comparisons to TMOHS's level of character development isn't gonna help me here with this.

[Lunar Archivist]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

The deadpan delivery is what makes it funny in the first place, I don't see how you guys missed this or why you're now attributing murderous intent to Kirino.

I wasn't laughing. I had a WTF look on my face after watching it and was left scratching my head. Call it poor delivery, either by Kirino or her voice actress, but I had no idea what to make of it.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

As far as we know Kirino doesn't have a boyfriend and I don't think it would be difficult to conclude that she has never had one.

Who'd want a girlfriend like that?

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Also if you've noticed, Kirino only has female friends and we've yet to see any real interaction between her and a male aside from Kyousuke.

For god's sake, men aren't an alien species. Considering the fact that she's a member of the in-crowd at her school, I think we can safely assume that Kirino isn't a complete social retard. It can't be that hard for her to figure out how to act around a guy, brother or not.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

One thing about Kirino is that she is always driven and determined so she found it insulting when Kyousuke challenged her, the difference this time is that she didn't scream at him or threaten him. Instead Kirino found a way to prove her intentions were genuine.

By doing something no normal person would do in public and embarrassing them both?

That scene in particular is why I can't tell whether or not she was kidding about asking Kyousuke stepping into traffic. She seems so mentally unbalanced that I have no idea what the heck she's thinking anymore.

Originally Posted by ion475

She WANTS Kyousuke's attention yet doesn't really know how to get them other than pushing him around.

So she's using techniques that grade schoolers use to demonstrate affection? What's next, is she going to start beating him up...oh wait.

Originally Posted by ion475

1. Being "Normal" (aka normal looking, not much money, average grades in school, no true standout personality...)
2. Oblivious to Girl's feeling (The most important point of having a "harem")
3. Being those "nice guy" type that goes all out and help every girl without expecting reward (Touma from Index is prime example...)

I wish this worked in real life.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Well, I guess 2 minutes of Manami are fine. But much more, and I feel my spirits shutting down and sleep creeping close. We have the drama potential of a wet ball of wool here. With Kirino, that doesn't happen to me.

No offense, but maybe there's something wrong with you. I don't particularly thrive on drama and insanity in a relationship. Give me nice, sweet, boring Manami any day of the week.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by musouka

A scene being played for laughs is not the same as the characters involved in the scene joking around. Kirino didn't have murderous intent--otherwise she would have just pushed him in front of a vehicle instead of asking--but that doesn't mean she was just pulling his leg about it either.

Really? So you didn't take it as a joke from her? Yet Kirino blatantly hinted that she loved Kyousuke just moments after. If that was a serious request from Kirino than I don't understand why she would have any such feelings for Kyousuke in the first place. It's a bit of a stretch to think otherwise.

Originally Posted by musouka

Kirino is usually one of my absolute favorite types of characters, but I don't like her very much. I don't think she's a potential murderer or anything, but I think the show has been letting her off the hook too easily and that's a turn off.

It's unfortunate that you're not a fan of Kirino but we all have certain characters that just don't grow on you. Hopefully you have another reason to watch this show and enjoy it either way because I'm definitely a fan of Kirino.

Just for the sake of discussion (and to satisfy my curiosity ), would you mind explicating on what the show is doing to let her "off the hook?"

[musouka]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Really? So you didn't take it as a joke from her? Yet Kirino blatantly hinted that she loved Kyousuke just moments after. If that was a serious request from Kirino than I don't understand why she would have any such feelings for Kyousuke in the first place. It's a bit of a stretch to think otherwise.

Kirino obviously has mixed feelings in regards to her brother. If she was purely happy to be around him and not resentful in some fashion, then she wouldn't exhibit the behavior she does. In that respect, I think it was an ill-advised comment. Not exactly a joke, but not exactly a demand either. It's obvious she was thinking of the plot to her novel and less about the consequences if Kyousuke really did "play in traffic." In short, it was there for the viewer to laugh, and to highlight how selfish Kirino can be.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Just for the sake of discussion (and to satisfy my curiosity ), would you mind explicating on what the show is doing to let her "off the hook?"

I mean that Kirino rarely has to deal with the consequences of her actions in any meaningful, realistic way. Speaking of someone who has A) been a fourteen year old girl, B) had embarrassing porn of mine discovered by my parents, and C) had difficulties with friends, it just doesn't strike me as realistic that Kyousuke is always waiting in the wings to smooth things over the best he can.

None of the situations Kirino has gotten in have been life-threatening, so they're ideal for character-growing moments. Yes, she would have been in deep shit with her father. Yes, she might have lost a friend. But these are things we all go through. It's what causes us to learn from our mistakes and become better people. But when Kirino not only gets to sidestep the full impact of these things AND has a consistently bad attitude about everything that doesn't gratify her wishes, it's not very pleasant for me to watch.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by musouka

Kirino obviously has mixed feelings in regards to her brother. If she was purely happy to be around him and not resentful in some fashion, then she wouldn't exhibit the behavior she does. In that respect, I think it was an ill-advised comment. Not exactly a joke, but not exactly a demand either. It's obvious she was thinking of the plot to her novel and less about the consequences if Kyousuke really did "play in traffic." In short, it was there for the viewer to laugh, and to highlight how selfish Kirino can be.

I can certainly level with you here, although I'm pretty sure she was aware that Kyousuke wasn't actually going to "play in traffic." Point taken, but what is yet to be revealed is why she is resentful of Kyousuke, I'm hoping this season will get to that.

Originally Posted by musouka

I mean that Kirino rarely has to deal with the consequences of her actions in any meaningful, realistic way. Speaking of someone who has A) been a fourteen year old girl, B) had embarrassing porn of mine discovered by my parents, and C) had difficulties with friends, it just doesn't strike me as realistic that Kyousuke is always waiting in the wings to smooth things over the best he can.

None of the situations Kirino has gotten in have been life-threatening, so they're ideal for character-growing moments. Yes, she would have been in deep shit with her father. Yes, she might have lost a friend. But these are things we all go through. It's what causes us to learn from our mistakes and become better people. But when Kirino not only gets to sidestep the full impact of these things AND has a consistently bad attitude about everything that doesn't gratify her wishes, it's not very pleasant for me to watch.

Since this is an anime, I'm sure we can give some leeway on the topic of "realism," although you have made some pretty good points. I must say though, having Kirino freed from taking responsibility has more to do with Kyousuke's development rather than Kirino's, which of course makes him more endearing to the audience. Kirino's development is solely dependent on her interactions with Kyousuke (so far that is.) That for the most part, is the problem to me.

In other words, I agree with you here While Kirino certainly is selfish and stubborn, she does have her redeeming qualities such as being responsible with her job and school-work. I hope we do get to see something with Kirino that will impact her development better.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by musouka

Kirino obviously has mixed feelings in regards to her brother. If she was purely happy to be around him and not resentful in some fashion, then she wouldn't exhibit the behavior she does. In that respect, I think it was an ill-advised comment. Not exactly a joke, but not exactly a demand either. It's obvious she was thinking of the plot to her novel and less about the consequences if Kyousuke really did "play in traffic." In short, it was there for the viewer to laugh, and to highlight how selfish Kirino can be.

Of all the ideas offered up for what the "get hit by a car" scene means, yours strikes me as the most believable as well. It struck me as an absent-minded comment on Kirino's part - like she was soooo wrapped up in getting inspiration for her novel that she wasn't thinking things through when it came to the suggestions she was making on how to get such inspiration.

Edit: I find it interesting that at least two openly female posters here have been critical of Kirino. My one worry in being critical of her is that I might not be getting a key justification for her actions since I'm a man, and hence can't fully relate to a teenage girl. Hence, it's good to see that many of the same sorts of critiques that I've made of Kirino are also ones made by female posters here.


Edit 2: I agree with DeX-kun on the idea that Kirino has never had a boyfriend. Frankly, I don't know where she'd have time for one.

That being said, I wouldn't say she'd make a horrible girlfriend just because of how she treats Kyousuke. She might be entirely different with a boyfriend than she is with her brother. She also does have a lot of good points of course: good marks in school, a solid job, clearly not someone the least bit lazy, etc...

[musouka]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Since this is an anime, I'm sure we can give some leeway on the topic of "realism," although you have made some pretty good points. I must say though, having Kirino freed from taking responsibility has more to do with Kyousuke's development rather than Kirino's, which of course makes him more endearing to the audience. Kirino's development is solely dependent on her interactions with Kyousuke (so far that is.) That for the most part, is the problem to me.

I think the series would be more effective for a lot of people if we were showed Kirino being forced to lay in the bed she made, but her big brother waiting in the wings to support her and comfort her through what would be painful times. For example, I used to slide supportive notes under my brother's door (or buy him his favorite candy or a comic book) when my mom had yelled at him, in order to cheer him up.

There are roles siblings naturally take and roles siblings don't naturally take. If something was threatening Kirino physically, then I would expect Kyousuke to step in. I'd be angry if he didn't. But we all need to take emotional knocks ourselves. For Kyousuke to keep on shielding her from the emotional consequences of her own choices means that he's stifling her natural growth into a mature young lady.

While Kirino certainly is selfish and stubborn, she does have her redeeming qualities such as being responsible with her job and school-work. I hope we do get to see something with Kirino that will impact her development better.

The problem is that Kirino's worth ethic and passion only has benefit for one person: herself. As far as reaching out to other people, being grateful when they do her a favor, taking things gracefully...she's severely behind the curve. Some of this can be chalked up to her age, but even the most immature person will realize when they've had a close shave and when someone has stuck their neck out for them. When I had tempers and fits and did stupid preteen shit, I felt pretty horrible afterward, especially when I realized my actions had an impact on my family and friends.

To me, it's sort of funny how people were discussing earlier about relationship progression. Listen, Kirino spending time with Kyousuke of her own accord is not a "reward". It's not adequate repayment for the things Kyousuke has done for her socially. Not being totally rude to him, expressing happiness over the expensive thing he bought her, thanking him for defending her from their dad...these are the bare minimum for someone who isn't a complete sociopath when someone has put himself on the line for her like he has. Kirino might be a nice-looking, vivacious girl, but that alone isn't license to do whatever you want.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I find it interesting that at least two openly female posters here have been critical of Kirino. My one worry in being critical of her is that I might not be getting a key justification for her actions since I'm a man, and hence can't fully relate to a teenage girl. Hence, it's good to see that many of the same sorts of critiques that I've made of Kirino are also ones made by female posters here.

I wouldn't second guess yourself when it comes to gender. Both men and women feel the exact same things, they just express them differently due to the environment in which they were raised. If Kirino was a man, she might be expressing her frustration in a different way, but I doubt (s)he would be any more kind or courteous about it and I think (s)he would still be a polarizing character.

[HayashiTakara]

Why does it feel like people have never seen a Tsundere character before?

I can put my hand in a basket and pull out an anime with the same character type as Kirino. It's nothing new and to dissect over... her intentions are extremely obvious, what's there to debate?

[aliasxn]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Why does it feel like people have never seen a Tsundere character before?

I can put my hand in a basket and pull out an anime with the same character type as Kirino.

Few as extreme as Kirino. You can only push the tsun side so far before it stops being cute.


EDIT: And usually there's a reason why the male lead endures it. That or he simply lacks the will to fight back. But in this case the male lead actively seeks out to her (at least since the season started). Why? Did Kyousuke do something to her in the past that he needs to make up for? Did he make a promise to a now deceased childhood friend that he would take care of her? Is he stuck in another world and is magically bound to her? Is he actually dead and needs to make her happy so he can ascend to heaven? Is he trying to break a cat god's curse? Is he a masochist that takes pleasure from all the pain and humiliation she puts him through? Did he lose a bet? Did she save his life in the past? Did she give him one of her kidneys? Is he going to get 100 million dollars after this is over? Was he raised as her aide, as in a main house/lower house kinda thing? Something. Anything. But as it stands now I don't see why he would seek reconciliation with her, or why he doesn't take offense at the way she treats him or why he values her social standing over his own. If the roles were reversed would she do the same for him?