AnimeSuki Forums

Kaoru Chujo · 2012-09-10, 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by rulfo

The storyboarding was really witty for this episode....

Storyboard and direction by UTSUMI Hiroko 内海紘子 (not 100% sure of the surname pronunciation, but this is what ANN goes with). She did the same for eps 7 (onsen episode) and 15 (Juumonji case).

She did key animation on Haruhi, the Haruhi movie, Clannad, Lucky Star, and K-On, then moved up to doing direction/storyboarding on K-On2 and Nichijou.

The overall director of this show is TAKEMOTO Yasuhiro, who did Full Metal Panic, most of Lucky Star, and the Haruhi movie.

Humble Loser · 2012-09-10, 13:04

Where to start?

Very nice episode. Satoshi has an interesting dilemma. He became happy by going neutral, leaving winning and losing behind. I think Satoshi will eventually be happier when he can conquer issues of obsession and not feel the need to run away from it or suppress the feelings. It is a hard lesson for a kid his age to master. He can imagine how different things could be and possibly how much happier he could be. But until Satoshi settles a few things internally, he will keep his "Mayaka problem."

Oreki is a good friend who gave Satoshi some space with sending Chitanda off and buying some time. But what struck me is for all of Oreki's Batman mental processing, Satoshi's explanation and/or nature was something Oreki could not fully understand. For a guy that can be given a small piece of a matter and work his way through mazes of questions and doubts, it seems like Satoshi is even a mystery to him. The old Oreki probably could have understood Satoshi better.

The captures of certain moments in the episode made me chuckle because I was aware of the quality of what I was watching. But looking at those captures made me appreciate it more after the fact.

10/10

Sumeragi · 2012-09-10, 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by orion

Also, how do we know that Satoshi isn't gay?

Stop giving me hope for Houtarou x Satoshi.

Anh_Minh · 2012-09-10, 13:40

I can certainly sympathize with Satoshi's decision to just indulge his whim and not try to be the best. (Isn't that a pointless, silly ambition anyway, for almost anyone except a handful of Olympic athletes?)

But I'm not sure I understand why Mayaka scares him. What's he afraid of? Trying to hard to be the best boyfriend ever? Becoming so obsessed with her he turns into a creepy stalker?

Guardian Enzo · 2012-09-10, 13:56

He's afraid that by becoming serious about her, he'll lapse into his old "try too hard" mode in everything else. She doesn't fit with his "don't give a damn" life model. In a way, it could be interpreted as a sign of his affection for her that he doesn't want to be in a relationship with her if he can't commit himself fully to it.

That said, he's really kidding himself that he can will himself into being something he isn't. Caring isn't something you can turn on and off like a faucet, and he's obviously a person that cares (it leaks out from time to time, like at Kanya Festa). He'll figure that out eventually, but it seems quite fitting that he could be delusional and take the easy way out (avoidance) with Mayaka. Although he's certainly the most self-aware person in the cast, he's still a 16 year-old kid.

Hyper · 2012-09-10, 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

Someone earlier questioned whether these people are more self-aware than real high-school students. Maybe they are. Maybe this is a show about adults, dressed up in high school drag. At the very least, these are extraordinary high-school students. And there's nothing wrong with that.

My highschool days are fast becoming a distance memory, but I do remember that me and my friends talked and worried about this stuffs. Something about how to choose the life that we'll be happy with and at the same time be responsible as a member of our family and our society. I don't think Hyouka make highschoolers too mature. It's the opposite: I think most anime make highschoolers too childish, or again, too chuunibyou. Highschool is not the time when one started to think that you have the power to change the world with friendship and whatnots, but the time one graduated from it. Maybe the different in education system is part of it, but I believe that in Asia, or at least in my country, highschool is the time when (almost) everyone first got crushed by the harsh reality of how high the sky is. From what I gather, that moment is usually in collage for the western countries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

The drawing and animation are certainly outstanding, but sometimes -- as in a couple of the gifs posted by Shergal (for which, thanks!) -- I got a whiff of animators showing off, maybe even to each other, in a way that was enjoyable but that slightly took away from the flow of the scene. Not that I'm complaining, since the animation gave a pleasure of its own, and the distraction was slight.

I think I understand what you mean, but I take it as how they want to emphasize the scene. Instead of some special effects, they use a shifted in animation to say "pay attention to this." I think it works wonder.

Dop · 2012-09-10, 16:01

The way it seems to me, Satoshi used to be one of those people who obsesses over everything. We saw the flashback in the arcade, when he was obsessed with winning video games and acted like a complete arse if he lost.

But I think he must have realised that this was bad, and decided to try and reform his character by not allowing himself to get obsessed with things.

So now he's worried that if he does start going out with Mayaka, he could get as obsessed with her as he was about other things.
He could become a creepy stalker. He could become unpleasantly possessive.

An obsessive relationship wouldn't end well for either of them.

Qilin · 2012-09-10, 16:08

Oh my. It seems that this episode serves as a nice follow-up to the Kanya Festival arc with regards to Satoshi's characterization. In fact, it outright states his personality issues, which the aforementioned arc only alluded to.

It definitely looks like he's given up at this point, which is understandable when faced with insurmountable gaps in talent. This is actually a relatively common thing in society today, so I can more or less get a good idea of the feelings behind his actions. As a means of protecting himself from his own inferiority complex, he basically stopped caring or, as I like to call it, "wallowing in his own mediocrity". This means that the laid back, cheerfully self-deprecating Satoshi we've come to be familiar with was nothing more than an act. It's just his way of coping with a harsh reality.

Unfortunately, there are several cracks in the mask he went though all the trouble of making. It would be fine if he was able to integrate the mask into himself completely, but that is not the case here. By his own permission, his competitive nature still remains strong behind his self-handicapping facade as seen in the Kanya Festival arc. Now, this episode presents Mayaka as the biggest threat to Satoshi's mask. Ironically, I'd say that his actions were his way of being nice to Mayaka. It could of course be seen as cruel, but it was what he believed to be the best way of rejecting her feelings without actually doing so. Still, I can't deny that his motivations were ultimately self-serving. After all, pursuing his feelings would mean stepping out his comfort zone, his bubble of self-induced apathy.

If you ask me though, I think Satoshi here is remarkably similar to Houtarou back during the earlier episodes. Like Satoshi, Houtarou also protected himself through self-handicapping, alongside adopting a convenient way of looking at things (energy-conservation). However, at a certain point, Houtarou became more confident in himself and has since then managed to take on a healthier way of looking at life. It wasn't easy, but with some prodding from the other characters, he was able to escape his cycle of learned helplessness. On the other hand, it's not as simple as a lack of confidence in Satoshi's case. He is likely to remain inferior for the rest of his life, so the important thing for him now is to simply embrace reality for what it is, which he did by calling Mayaka at the end.

Hiroi Sekai · 2012-09-10, 16:22

This is such a stunning episode, with a fantastic use of symbolism and emotional portrayal. From the very beginning everything's set up well.

Fukube from the start never had a solid reason for turning Mayaka's chocolates away in middle school. Even at that point you can tell that he's put up a barrier of sorts- a big one.

When Houtarou gripped Chitanda's arm instinctively, it's evident he wanted to protect her from knowing the truth. However, from Chitanda's overly curious nature he had to resort to lying to her to cover it up.

All throughout the series it's been shown that Fukube has a "won't lose" nature, but this is the first time they've come out and said it. The bit at the arcade was good, showing that Fukube's matured since then, but something's still tugging at him. There's this forced feeling to how he accepted his defeat, definitely.

Mayaka hearing the chocolates were gone was one hell of a powerful scene. Already at this point she knows Fukube's rejected her once again, and the way she tips her head slowly in the dark spot has impact. She even says "it does sting a little, though...", and it would.

The best moment though is when Houtarou was nearing the end of his deduction. The instant he broke that chocolate on the table, he smashed up all of Mayaka's work (and symbolically, her own heart), and damn. Even loved how Houtarou had the balls to threaten Fukube for his heartless actions.

There's finally the clever bit at the end when Fukube finally calls Mayaka while Houtarou claims his chocolate is bitter. Fantastic use of direction, I loved every moment of it.

ThereminVox · 2012-09-10, 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dop

An obsessive relationship wouldn't end well for either of them.

From Mayaka's what-I'll-do-if-he-won't-accept-it fantasy at the start of the episode, I'm not sure they're so far off already

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

The difference of course is that she's joking.

...Probably.

Chaos2Frozen · 2012-09-10, 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by papermario13689

When Houtarou gripped Chitanda's arm instinctively, it's evident he wanted to protect her from knowing the truth. However, from Chitanda's overly curious nature he had to resort to lying to her to cover it up.

No, this time it had nothing to do with curiosity- Chitanda was driven by her guilt over losing Mayaka's chocolate.

Hiroi Sekai · 2012-09-10, 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

No, this time it had nothing to do with curiosity- Chitanda was driven by her guilt over losing Mayaka's chocolate.

Suppose so, but the curiosity naturally is there. Guess it's just nice that they didn't go with the "I'm curious!" bit again.

bastek66 · 2012-09-10, 17:40

Correct me if I'm wrong - I read somewhere that scene where Mayaka asks Eru who she likes isn't in the novel?

bellsboy66 · 2012-09-10, 19:31

As always for Hyouka, this episode did a major tug on the heart strings, in multiple directions at once.
Not only did we get to see the fun interactions beween Chintada and Oreki as they continue with their slow and careful relationship dance, we got to see all the loverly fireworks between our two more outgoing club members.
As many others have pointed out, the character development in this show is simply top notch.
And know for something different, did anybody else catch the mess up in the next episode titles?
Normally, at least as far as Hyouka, Mazui's subs have been very good, with Commie running a distant second.
I routinely watch both to for the different nuances that they come up with for the same scenes and I have to admit I prefer Mazui's the most.
But this time I was surprised by the way both got the preview title wrong.
The Japanese itself is Tomawari suru Hina. Tomawari being detour and Hina being doll. Yet Mazui translates it as Chicks on a detour and Commie as Doll in the distance. I have to admit I spent almost 2 hours working on it, but it should be Doll that made a detour. The part that drove me crazy was the Hina. Its a weird version thats part of the kanji for Hina Asobi, the doll festival and none of my books actually have it in it.

Skane · 2012-09-10, 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by bastek66

Correct me if I'm wrong - I read somewhere that scene where Mayaka asks Eru who she likes isn't in the novel?

I'm more surprised that nobody is speculating about it after five pages.

Chaos2Frozen · 2012-09-10, 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skane

I'm more surprised that nobody is speculating about it after five pages.

Well it's not like there's anything to say that we all don't already know deep inside

orion · 2012-09-10, 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaat

Kaho is interested in Satoshi when did this happen?

She asked Oreki where Satoshi was at the shrine. Girls don't normally do this type of a thing unless they are interested in the guy.

Hata · 2012-09-10, 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

Storyboard and direction by UTSUMI Hiroko 内海紘子 (not 100% sure of the surname pronunciation, but this is what ANN goes with). She did the same for eps 7 (onsen episode) and 15 (Juumonji case).

this explains somewhat how in this and eps 7 the anime story ending is more "sunny", or positive than the novel version. same person doing the editing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bellsboy66

And know for something different, did anybody else catch the mess up in the next episode titles?
Normally, at least as far as Hyouka, Mazui's subs have been very good, with Commie running a distant second.
I routinely watch both to for the different nuances that they come up with for the same scenes and I have to admit I prefer Mazui's the most.
But this time I was surprised by the way both got the preview title wrong.
The Japanese itself is Tomawari suru Hina. Tomawari being detour and Hina being doll. Yet Mazui translates it as Chicks on a detour and Commie as Doll in the distance. I have to admit I spent almost 2 hours working on it, but it should be Doll that made a detour. The part that drove me crazy was the Hina. Its a weird version thats part of the kanji for Hina Asobi, the doll festival and none of my books actually have it in it.

the novel author like to give English title to his story, this story's English title is "Little BIRDS can remember".
"雛" is a double meaning word for both chick and doll,

==========
question: during Mayaka's fantasy sequence, she said she will read a book to Satoshi while force feed him chocolate, anyone got the name of the book?

Chaos2Frozen · 2012-09-10, 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by orion

She asked Oreki where Satoshi was at the shrine. Girls don't normally do this type of a thing unless they are interested in the guy.

Really? There's no way it can be anything else

?

Absolutely no other possibilities that can occur?

orion · 2012-09-10, 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Really? There's no way it can be anything else

?

Absolutely no other possibilities that can occur?

Not in that context. If he's not pulling a shift, there was no reason for her to want to know if he was there unless she's interested in him also.

View Poll Results: Hyouka - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10	42	46.15%
9 out of 10 : Excellent	38	41.76%
8 out of 10 : Very Good	7	7.69%
7 out of 10 : Good	2	2.20%
6 out of 10 : Average	2	2.20%
5 out of 10 : Below Average	0	0%
4 out of 10 : Poor	0	0%
3 out of 10 : Bad	0	0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad	0	0%
1 out of 10 : Painful	0	0%
Voters: 91. You may not vote on this poll

2012-09-10, 16:08	Link #88
Qilin Romanticist Join Date: Aug 2009 Age: 33	Oh my. It seems that this episode serves as a nice follow-up to the Kanya Festival arc with regards to Satoshi's characterization. In fact, it outright states his personality issues, which the aforementioned arc only alluded to. It definitely looks like he's given up at this point, which is understandable when faced with insurmountable gaps in talent. This is actually a relatively common thing in society today, so I can more or less get a good idea of the feelings behind his actions. As a means of protecting himself from his own inferiority complex, he basically stopped caring or, as I like to call it, "wallowing in his own mediocrity". This means that the laid back, cheerfully self-deprecating Satoshi we've come to be familiar with was nothing more than an act. It's just his way of coping with a harsh reality. Unfortunately, there are several cracks in the mask he went though all the trouble of making. It would be fine if he was able to integrate the mask into himself completely, but that is not the case here. By his own permission, his competitive nature still remains strong behind his self-handicapping facade as seen in the Kanya Festival arc. Now, this episode presents Mayaka as the biggest threat to Satoshi's mask. Ironically, I'd say that his actions were his way of being nice to Mayaka. It could of course be seen as cruel, but it was what he believed to be the best way of rejecting her feelings without actually doing so. Still, I can't deny that his motivations were ultimately self-serving. After all, pursuing his feelings would mean stepping out his comfort zone, his bubble of self-induced apathy. If you ask me though, I think Satoshi here is remarkably similar to Houtarou back during the earlier episodes. Like Satoshi, Houtarou also protected himself through self-handicapping, alongside adopting a convenient way of looking at things (energy-conservation). However, at a certain point, Houtarou became more confident in himself and has since then managed to take on a healthier way of looking at life. It wasn't easy, but with some prodding from the other characters, he was able to escape his cycle of learned helplessness. On the other hand, it's not as simple as a lack of confidence in Satoshi's case. He is likely to remain inferior for the rest of his life, so the important thing for him now is to simply embrace reality for what it is, which he did by calling Mayaka at the end. __________________ "There’s an up higher than up, but at the very top, down is all there is."

2012-09-10, 13:04	Link #82
Humble Loser Spineless Main Character Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Anywhere & Everywhere	Where to start? Very nice episode. Satoshi has an interesting dilemma. He became happy by going neutral, leaving winning and losing behind. I think Satoshi will eventually be happier when he can conquer issues of obsession and not feel the need to run away from it or suppress the feelings. It is a hard lesson for a kid his age to master. He can imagine how different things could be and possibly how much happier he could be. But until Satoshi settles a few things internally, he will keep his "Mayaka problem." Oreki is a good friend who gave Satoshi some space with sending Chitanda off and buying some time. But what struck me is for all of Oreki's Batman mental processing, Satoshi's explanation and/or nature was something Oreki could not fully understand. For a guy that can be given a small piece of a matter and work his way through mazes of questions and doubts, it seems like Satoshi is even a mystery to him. The old Oreki probably could have understood Satoshi better. The captures of certain moments in the episode made me chuckle because I was aware of the quality of what I was watching. But looking at those captures made me appreciate it more after the fact. 10/10

2012-09-10, 13:40	Link #84
Anh_Minh I disagree with you all. Join Date: Dec 2005	I can certainly sympathize with Satoshi's decision to just indulge his whim and not try to be the best. (Isn't that a pointless, silly ambition anyway, for almost anyone except a handful of Olympic athletes?) But I'm not sure I understand why Mayaka scares him. What's he afraid of? Trying to hard to be the best boyfriend ever? Becoming so obsessed with her he turns into a creepy stalker?

2012-09-10, 16:01	Link #87
Dop Mmmm.... Join Date: Sep 2006	The way it seems to me, Satoshi used to be one of those people who obsesses over everything. We saw the flashback in the arcade, when he was obsessed with winning video games and acted like a complete arse if he lost. But I think he must have realised that this was bad, and decided to try and reform his character by not allowing himself to get obsessed with things. So now he's worried that if he does start going out with Mayaka, he could get as obsessed with her as he was about other things. He could become a creepy stalker. He could become unpleasantly possessive. An obsessive relationship wouldn't end well for either of them.

2012-09-10, 17:40	Link #93
bastek66 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012	Correct me if I'm wrong - I read somewhere that scene where Mayaka asks Eru who she likes isn't in the novel?

2012-09-10, 19:31	Link #94
bellsboy66 Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Puyallup, WA	As always for Hyouka, this episode did a major tug on the heart strings, in multiple directions at once. Not only did we get to see the fun interactions beween Chintada and Oreki as they continue with their slow and careful relationship dance, we got to see all the loverly fireworks between our two more outgoing club members. As many others have pointed out, the character development in this show is simply top notch. And know for something different, did anybody else catch the mess up in the next episode titles? Normally, at least as far as Hyouka, Mazui's subs have been very good, with Commie running a distant second. I routinely watch both to for the different nuances that they come up with for the same scenes and I have to admit I prefer Mazui's the most. But this time I was surprised by the way both got the preview title wrong. The Japanese itself is Tomawari suru Hina. Tomawari being detour and Hina being doll. Yet Mazui translates it as Chicks on a detour and Commie as Doll in the distance. I have to admit I spent almost 2 hours working on it, but it should be Doll that made a detour. The part that drove me crazy was the Hina. Its a weird version thats part of the kanji for Hina Asobi, the doll festival and none of my books actually have it in it.