"Fansubbed" Forum: Should discussion be limited to fansubbed episodes?

[AvatarST]

People who contribute and are generally well known and can watch raws?

I mean, someone like you could fit that profile, and there's quite a few others. That's up for the staff anyway, they'd know better who they can or want to work with, but this is the suggestions forum after all.

[Pakxenon]

I can't discuss stuff because they're all an episode or more ahead. I've stayed away from the Fansub forums for quite awhile now, but I really want to go back in there.

[Whitemoon648]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, semi-off-topic, but there are other reasons why I wish that were the case as well. Namely, to prevent the constant repetitive questions you often see in the Fansub threads (like, "how many episodes are there?" or "is the OP/ED/OST out?" or "will there be an OVA/second season?", etc. etc.) But somehow I doubt people would read it, even if it were more visible.

And for what it's worth, remember: no practical changes are being proposed here (at least, not by me). The point of the question is what you'd rather in your ideal world, not how to make it actually happen. If you get bogged down too much in the mechanics, then you'll misstate your opinion. But it is good to think through the consequences of your choices.

Its true still some people wouldnt read them, but there will be people who will read it becasue of that. Lets say the thread has gone to 10 pages. Most people wouldnt probably start from page 1. They would go to page 9 and 10 to post and read comments. So my point is it will reduce it a bit.

For my personal opinion, I wouldnt mind if there are Raw discussions in spoiler tags ( and fully designated as Raw, Manga, .....). But if people are going to follow the raws, i would hope them not to join in discussions of some of the key events of the series that hasnt been subbed untill fansubs reach that point.

I will make an example to show what i mean. Lets say the Romance anime just ends at episode 26 and the subs are at episode 20. There is Mr.X and three candidate girls X, Z, W. In episode 20 there might be a discussion about " who do you think will end up with Mr.X and why do you think so", People discuss it and the person who has seen the raw and knows who will, sais Z and because .... . After fansub gets to episode 21 and 22 , people will see that story is happening in the exact way as the Raw-watcher said and the they know they have just been spoiled.

So I hope Raw-watchers wouldnt join in the key events of the series if the fan-sub is far behind the raw, because even if they arent doing it purposely , their post will still be influenced by what they watched in raw.

I have been spoiled that way many times by the way.

Originally Posted by AvatarST

Having separate threads seems like an adequate solution. No one loses out there.
It'd happen much less though, and for the people who go and do that, they should be punished...that should be a good enough deterrent.

Even if we seperate them, there is no gauranty , Raw-watchers wouldnt post in the fansub section and there is guaranty their post wont have any spoilers.

And FYI they do get banned already for not using spoiler tags . But even if they get banned some people will still end up being spoiled .

The way i see it there is no real way to stop all the spoiler posts , but to just reduce them. Also our forum has some of the best mods ever and they respond extremely fast to the spoiler posts and remove it.
If it wasnt because of our great mods i ( probably many other people feel the samw way) wouldnt even be here, Because there would be a great chance for me to get spoiled preaty fast.

[relentlessflame]

If I may, I'd like to try to steer the discussion away from the "two threads" idea. Again, you're all getting so wrapped up in try to solve the "problem", that you're forgetting to keep the main thing the main thing. The primary audience of AnimeSuki forums is fansub viewers. If raw watchers wanted to discuss things seperately from fansub viewers, they could already go discuss elsewhere. So saying "let's give them their own forum!" is really just segregating in a way that's counter to the core purpose/target audience of AnimeSuki. Why should AnimeSuki cater especially to raw viewers, when it's a forum tied to an English fansub torrent listing? AnimeSuki can't be all things to all people.

Really, what I think you all mean to say is actually just "Discussion in the Fansub forums should be limited to English-fansubbed episodes"; that wouldn't exclude or segregate anyone, but just sets an appropriate timeframe for discussion. I know the thought was well-intended ("it's not that we want the raw viewers to feel left out..." and/or "we don't want them to leave the forum completely..."), but, respectfully, it's just not entirely thought through. Telling them to "go play in their own sandbox and leave us alone" is actually much worse, even if (especially if?) you provide the sandbox. Look at history for examples. It's better to have one sandbox with clearly-defined rules; that way, people can choose if they want to play or not. This is why I've been saying: don't get so caught up on changing the forums to solve the problem. What we can do, though, is try to change our individual behaviour and expectations.

[Whitemoon648]

To sum up all i have said in this whole thread

In my personal opinion we should just continue as we are. People who watch raw should be allowed to discuss the raw but just make sure they put it in spoiler tag.

And then people who open the Spoiler tag that is designated as spoiler=raw, and then complain about getting spoiled , then well they shouldnt have opend it when the knew it was from the raw and spoiler .

I only sympathize with the people who have been spoiled because there was no spoiler tags when there need to be. And those people who dont follow it should get banned and do get ban by the mod.

So i think we are fine the way we are in the forums. and i stay firm with my option 3 that i chose.
This is my last post in this thread, Because we are just going in a circle and repeating our posts .

[AvatarST]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Really, what I think you all mean to say is actually just "Discussion in the Fansub forums should be limited to English-fansubbed episodes"; that wouldn't exclude or segregate anyone, but just sets an appropriate timeframe for discussion.

It doesn't -exclude- the raw watches, but it does ban them from talking about something they enjoy watching and talking about - the raws.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I know the thought was well-intended ("it's not that we want the raw viewers to feel left out..." and/or "we don't want them to leave the forum completely..."), but, respectfully, it's just not entirely thought through. Telling them to "go play in their own sandbox and leave us alone" is actually much worse, even if (especially if?) you provide the sandbox.

Why is that? You say that animesuki can't be all things for all people, but the raw watchers are a part of the community. Why should they be left out when things were like this all the way? A big number of raw watchers contribute a lot to the forums; I even dare say that out of the people I know, it's usually raw watchers who contribute. Separate threads isn't a bad idea; raw watchers keep discussing with other raw watchers, which is what they mostly do in the current threads anyway (unless someone actually enjoys spoiling others, which I somehow doubt), and fansub watchers can be more active and post without thinking what they're saying is just old news. Fansub watchers who actually enjoy being spoiled can just go read and ask questions in the raw thread.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

This is why I've been saying: don't get so caught up on changing the forums to solve the problem. What we can do, though, is try to change our individual behaviour and expectations.

Isn't this the suggestions and site feedback forum? When there's a problem, I try to come up with ideas to solve it, where most people would be happy and get the best deal possible. I don't see much wrong with making more threads and getting more moderators if the forum is bigger than it originally was.

And, as for changing our individual behaviour and expectations...you know that not everyone is going to listen. Not the people who didn't read this thread, and not everyone that read it, even.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by AvatarST

A big number of raw watchers contribute a lot to the forums; I even dare say that out of the people I know, it's usually raw watchers who contribute.

If the fansubs were to come out simultaneously with the raws, wouldn't fansub watchers have the same chances to contribute to the ongoing discussion as the raw watchers? What it mostly comes down to here is the degree of language skills one possesses, to be able to follow raw anime copies. Fansub watchers contribute on the same level as raw watchers do, but only in a different time frame.

But if you want to hear a really simple solution to this issue, I explain one to you:

AnimeSuki knows three forums where new, ongoing anime are discussed: Fansubbed, Unaired, Current Series. Current Series only includes the most popular anime and is a solution most of us would like to see, but alas we don't have that many moderators for that. Fansubbed is where our problem lies. Creating threads for each episode in this forum would spell chaos. Scratch that idea. However, you're overlooking one forum that goes relatively unused and also has active moderators: Unaired.

The forum for unaired anime already has posters who contribute information of ongoing (raw) episodes that haven't been fansubbed yet. I'm a contributor myself. While popular anime before their airing (like Kanon) get a lot of responses in their respected topics, most anime series' threads reach only a handful of pages (around 1-3 pages max.) before their series get fansubbed and moved to Fansubbed. Series that never get fansubbed still have a healthy discussion going on in the Unaired forum (it was named General Anime a month ago).

What I'm suggesting is to keep raw discussion in the Unaired forum, and keep those freshly created topics for discussing the shows before they air in that forum, without moving them once they get fansubs, and fansub watchers can just create a fresh thread in the Fansubbed forum once that happens.

What does this solve:

• Raw spoilers will naturally get banned from the Fansubbed forum. This would most likely (not sure on this one) require manga/light novel/game spoilers to be banned as well. It will make the fansub watchers happy, and they'll be able to contribute to the discussion once more.
• Raw watchers will get their own playground, consequently people who enjoy spoilers will know where they can get them, also they'll be able to find them more organized and won't need to waste bandwidth browsing through all the pages to find them.
• The discussion of a particular series will be chronologically grouped; the discussion in both forums would continue in a fixed timeframe.
• Moderators will get no extra workload, considering that there is already a discussion of barely aired anime going on right now in the Unaired forum.

The bad?
The discussion gets divided. Oh, wait, does it really get divided? I thought raw watchers are already having their own discussion in the Fansubbed forum and are thus willingly drifting away from discussing anime with fansub watchers because their schedules lie in a different time frame?

The question we're all running away from here, in an attempt not to offend those raw watchers who would mind if the discussion got split in half, is: Why do raw watchers want people who can't discuss unsubbed anime with them around them?

Answers I could come up with:

• They want to be the first to tell something to a larger crowd, whilst not being binded to fansubbers' release times. - They're obviously big fans, but do they need fansub depended audience to show their love towards the show? Keep in mind, their discussion will quite possibly have already drifted away from the fansub discussion once new fansubs get released, and they always have other raw watchers to initiate a discussion with.
• Promotion of their own blog, linking to summaries. - I just started blogging myself, but this must be the sickest reason out there to tease the crowds with links to spoilers in your posts. I link to my summaries in the spoiler tags, so whoever is willing to open up spoiler brackets, will get the links, noone else.

I think using Unaired (or possibly even renaming it to Unfansubbed) for discussion of raw, unfansubbed anime would be a win-win situation for both fansub watchers and moderators. The only loser here will be the malevolent spoilsport and the selfcentric anime blogger. I'm in no way a supporter of encouraging egotripping, which is the case with the current situation.

EDIT: For the honest raw watchers out there who would want to participate in a discussion with a bigger crowd (if this idea would be effective) the solution is very easy: Engage in the Fansubbed anime discussion once the fansubs are out.

[raikage]

Originally Posted by Toua

The bad?
The discussion gets divided. Oh, wait, does it really get divided? I thought raw watchers are already having their own discussion in the Fansubbed forum and are thus willingly drifting away from discussing anime with fansub watchers because their schedules lie in a different time frame?

The question we're all running away from here, in an attempt not to offend those raw watchers who would mind if the discussion got split in half, is: Why do raw watchers want people who can't discuss unsubbed anime with them around them?

EDIT: For the honest raw watchers out there who would want to participate in a discussion with a bigger crowd (if this idea would be effective) the solution is very easy: Engage in the Fansubbed anime discussion once the fansubs are out.

Eh...that tends to be pretty tedious.

As a guy who used to be way more active in the Naruto forum, it was difficult to talk about what was happening in the anime. The series would be animating events in chapters 180-181 when we'd be reading chapter 275, for example.

So, by the time the anime viewers had gotten to that point, the manga readers felt they had already discussed the events, and really, how can you have a discussion knowing what the outcome of the conflict is going to be and ensure you don't inadvertenly leak knowledge to be gained in later episodes?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Toua

The question we're all running away from here, in an attempt not to offend those raw watchers who would mind if the discussion got split in half, is: Why do raw watchers want people who can't discuss unsubbed anime with them around them?

I don't think anyone's running away from the question, but by coming up with your own answers to justify the "win-win solution", you're avoiding the potential "real" answers. The question remains: if raw watchers wanted to discuss only with other raw watchers, why would they be discussing here on a fansub forum in the first place (where the primary audience is people who don't watch raws)? We dont have any real data about that yet; I don't know if the question's ever been asked. To justify "the plan", though, you came to two conclusions on your own: raw viewers would actually be okay just discussing with other raw viewers (they don't need the fansub crowd), and if they're not okay with that, it's because they're either manevolent or self-centered/egotistical (or both) and so shouldn't be appeased. As I mentioned, both conclusions are based entirely on speculation. Really, we need more data before we can carry out an effective root cause analysis, and without that (the cause of the behaviour that leads to the apparent problem), there's no way to know whether the proposed change will actually solve the problem or cause new ones. This is why I keep saying that everyone's putting the cart before the horse. You don't even really know why raw viewers are here (when they could be anywhere else on the Internet), but you've already come up with a plan that'll "make them happy". It's like throwing darts while blindfolded; you might hit the bull's eye, or you might take out someone's eye, and you won't know either way until it's too late.

So, if we really want to solve this problem in a way that'll make everyone happy, the next logical step would be to better understand the motivations of the raw viewers in posting here. The concerns of the fansub viewers have been made quite clear in this thread, which was what was being sought based on the way I phrased the original question. Thanks to everyone for all their input so far.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by The Small One

You should consider, that a "raw-watcher" isn't ncessarily a "raw-watcher"... What I want to say: There are hundreds of Animes out there. What if someone is watching a most of them as fansubs, but one or two as Raw (because the subs are too far behind or something like this).
Watching a series as a raw doesn't necessarily mean, that everything the person is watching is raw, therefore it's not hard to imagine, why such a person would come to this/a fansub forum.

No doubt about that -- I'm in pretty nearly that category myself. The question was a bit rhetorical in its intent, though; the point was, we shouldn't just rush to conclusions about how to solve the issue until we more fully understand the many and varied reasons why people post about raws on this forum to begin with. Your point reveals one of many such possible motivations. My instincts tell me that the proposed solution would cause as many problems as it would solve, but I think we need more data either way.

[Shay]

Like right now I would love to participate in the Kenichi thread as I have just re-watched episode 6. But alas, the guys in there are already having fun with episode 12. I know it is my own fault for not being able to speak Japanese or Chinese but I can't be the only one who wants to talk about the recent subs?

[Radiosity]

Coming back to this thread again because I've pretty much just had the same thing as Shay. Manabi Straight thread. Quite happily discussing ep2 subs, but now people are discussing ep5 in spoilers (and will likely be on 6 or even 7 by the time ep3 sub is out.) I simply don't feel like posting to that thread any more now because anything I say is basically redundant. That's how it feels anyway.

That's the first thread I've posted to in the 'fansubs' forum in quite some time, simply because I loved the first two eps so much I wanted to talk and evangelize a bit. Which has lasted all of about 5 days. Now I'm back to completely ignoring that forum again.

Originally Posted by Shay

but I can't be the only one who wants to talk about the recent subs?

+1 to that.

[Vexx]

Well.. *I* plan to discuss the most recent subs (like ep 2 for Manabi Straight).

I don't mind the publication with spoil tags of screen caps (like from Random Curiosity) and such, but we do have a number of raw watchers who repeatedly forget what constitutes spoilerific information, the Manabi thread containing some recent examples. Banning them would remove some of our more informative and interesting posters and I'd rather that not happen. I guess I can just report them all as raw spoilage and let the mods sort it out, but then I grieve for the mods

Frankly, I'd prefer Unaired be expanded to cover "raw" discussion (but thats a solution I guess).

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Frankly, I'd prefer Unaired be expanded to cover "raw" discussion (but thats a solution I guess).

Well, yeah -- that's what was proposed last month; splitting discussion in two: raws and fansubs. Call me unconvinced still, I guess -- both that we need threads dedicated to raw discussion on AnimeSuki, and that this will really solve the problem.

One of the big draws of a forum of this size is its large readership. Even though some people would rather ignore the raw discussion, the fact that the thread keeps moving (that it's being continually "bumped") is what keeps people posting (even if they're ignoring some of the content). If the thread isn't popular enough to warrant its own forum and the fansubs fall behind, then splitting the discussion as was proposed could lead to a death spiral of the fansub forum thread (the less people post, the less people want to post, the thread isn't bumped, etc.). Even once the fansub is released, it's old news to a portion of the population, and of what benefit would it be for those who've already watched the raws or participated in the raw discussion to come back and discuss old episodes? At the very least, it'd be pretty hard to avoid allusions to future episodes, which would be the point of splitting raw discussion aside (so the discussion isn't biased by spoilers).

The appropriate marking of spoilers aside (as I think everyone agrees on that point, even if some aren't always faithful in practicing it), I think what is ultimately being requested here is impossible to support in a unified way: two completely seperate, isolated universes of discussion for those who watch/discuss raws and those who only watch fansubs. And if you tried to legislate that into existance, I imagine that you'd end up with the worst of both, not to mention a potentially serious case of "haves" vs. "have-nots". That's just my theory, though. But that theory is why I was more interesting in opinion to see how individual behaviour/etiquette (my own) might be changed, than in trying to come up with a way of "fixing the forums". I think the "problem" is actually a symptom of a larger trend (that a growing English-speaking audience is watching and discussing raws, rather than waiting for the fansubs), so I doubt the problem can really be fixed. It's a by-product.

[Vexx]

I'll probably tend to always wait for the subs as long as they become available in a reasonable time and mostly resort to raws if there's a long delay. The other situation would be when no one is subbing it (*cough* Hidamari Sketch). My etiquette is just that I'll completely tag any comments about a raw episode unless its in its own thread.